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AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion


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1 hour ago, whispersofblood said:

Which means in an objective game since your allegiance forces you to take fewer models you have to push to either kill or models or lose so few models that you can grind out your opponent.

I haven’t played any games with them so far, and now that the Tzeentch book(my main army) is out I’m not going to in the foreseeable. But I know a guy who is a new player, he lost 22 games in a row as Blades of Khorne, and now he’s winning games by flipping objectives with the Summons from Ravagers.

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5 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

I haven’t played any games with them so far, and now that the Tzeentch book(my main army) is out I’m not going to in the foreseeable. But I know a guy who is a new player, he lost 22 games in a row as Blades of Khorne, and now he’s winning games by flipping objectives with the Summons from Ravagers.

Yeah Khorne is actually a huge winner with the S2D book, mostly because they can import basically straight up better command abilities and auras. But they are one of the only factions who actually have Mortal + [Insert God] abilities. But, this is inversely true of the other gods. Slaanesh for example gets almost all the upgrades from the Aura, better artefacts, better support abilities, and depravity. Host of Ssyl'esske for instance can literally transpose almost an identical list and only gain from being Hedonites, and retain double pile-in with the chaos lord.
 

1 hour ago, Zplash said:

Don't want to comment on everything in that wall. Just one small hint: you don't need over top or high damage output to win AOS games. 

(or any dmg at all... Greetings from a  nurgle tallyband player :))

 

I addressed this point already.

1 hour ago, Zplash said:

Which means in an objective game since your allegiance forces you to take fewer models you have to push to either kill or models or lose so few models that you can grind out your opponent. But, since you are a foot speed faction and you only have 3 turns at best in which to decide the game, don't really have the time to grind. So you really have to find ways to kill models, which if you look at the lists most people are trying to do.

But also, its not a good strategy. You can peruse all the faction forums, people build their army with the idea of removing 4+ save models from the board, and the potency of factions keeps going up! See; Nurgle's winrate

@Bloodmoon

That's an interesting battle, thanks for sharing I'm sure seeing it live would have been more informative but such is life.

His list a variation of the old reverse tide list. I'm surprised he bothered engaging you at all, given the extreme difference in mobility. Do you remember the result of the Dark Prophecy? How did it jive with the new faq? I suppose my question really given the lack of knowledge of your army your opponent seemed to have do you think it would be replicated? Some of this just looks like bad play, not that I want to be talk down to anyone, least of all someone I've never met about a game I didn't play or see.

This may seem like pointless complaining, but the purpose is to actually find a way to address what I see as fundamental obstacles to overcome in a list. I'm not lobbying for changes, or faqs, or merely complaining. The idea is to actually come up with concrete building blocks to use to build an army.  

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@whispersofbloodbecause of my early double turn, it meant my entire army was sat on the OBJs, and there wasnt really any of the trademark "dance around the slow enemy while they hoof it at you"strategy, which is why he was forced to engage.  I explained positioning poorly, its a bit hard over text. 

 

The FAQ changes nothing about how my list plays, it just means its slightly less likely for me to get a double turn early on. If we fought again(and I certainly plan to) I think both of us would have learned from the experience, as that was actually my very first game against IDK ever. now that I realize more what his army can do, and i've improved the list I run by adding a CSL in place of 5 CW(lets be honest, an extra 5 models isnt gonna help anything, certainly not more than full rerolls to hit/wound/save that the sorc can put out)I think it would still be very very winnable for either of us, but I think I would have the advantage because of drop count, less reliance on charges, and control over the turn order. 

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This army has a lot of tricks to aid with a defensive game. The Khorne daemon Prince's ability to halve run and charges can be devastating and help you score points while your opponent flounders. Some of the spells can hamper movement too however all are 12" range and are not easy to cast so relying on that strategy is risky. The Ravagers ability to bring on marauders who are almost guaranteed to make the charge is great, but costs CP in an army already hungry for CP. It feels very much like a thinking army, not a push across the table and win fights army. Some people no doubt enjoy this playstyle, others find it too complex in a game already bloated with countless rules/abilities/scenarios/limitations. It also seems unfluffy that these hulking armoured warriors infused with the power of chaos cannot stand up to naked witch elves, naked dwarves and naked greenskins in a fight. Back in the day they were the most feared army from a melee perspective, however the trade off was low model count and no shooting. We still have the limitations without the melee power and that feels rough. 

The main issue for slaves is causing damage as others have said. If your opponent gets to the objectives first then you are next to no chance of fighting them off. Warriors are great for holding objectives but are reasonably slow so many armies will beat them to it. Even then our defense is decent but not unbreakable like fireslayers, petrifex mortek guard or many other units with after saves/negs to hit/ regenerating etc. We have no ranged damage and rely on endless spells and a specific legion build to cause damage with magic. Against an army that summons we will find ourselves very outnumbered, especially given many of our units are overcosted to start with. Chariots for 120 points is a sick joke surely? Knights are pointed like an elite unit but are far from it. Daemon Princes struggle to earn back their points as they dont put out that much damage. Marauders can throw a ton of dice but can still bounce off many defensive units and will die to a stiff breeze in return. If you win a melee fight with slaves its most likely because your opponent played poorly or the dice were really on your side.

The 4 x Gaunt Summoner list someone mentioned above seems nasty with 40  free horrors but personally I find that a pretty boring list. I dont play Slaves to not field knights/warriors/chaos lords etc and if that is the list you want to use then why not play Tzeentch? (and have fun buying and painting 60-80 blue horrors and another 100+ brimstone horrors that you will need to fully take advantage of that list... no thanks). That list also has some hard counters such as shooting, strong anti magic or alpha striking lists that can close the distance and take out the sorcerers before they can summon. Otherwise it seems your best chance of being competitive, even in a casual game, is to bring Archaon. Nothing against the big man but it is fairly limiting if your best chance involves 1/3 of your points going into 1 model who some armies have very little issue dealing with. 

A lot of chat on here is about casual vs competitive. I've only ever been to one tournament but do play in local leagues and the occasional beer and pretzel games are my favourite (but we still play with points to ensure some level of fairness). My experience is even in the local league which is generally casual, people dont turn up with a fluff list that they know will lose. They bring models they like and know will perform for them, meaning you need to bring a decent list or prepare to get slaughtered. Losing games is part of the hobby but surely no one plays without hoping to win at least some of the time? Being competitive isn't necessarily about winning at all costs and chasing the meta, its about turning up to a game of equal points and feeling like you have a more or less even chance. Then you see what other armies can bring for the same points and hear what their allegiance abilities let them do and you think, how l am I going to deal with that? Any FEC player, casual or competitive, is turning up with at least one terrorgheist that can elect to fight twice after seeing the outcome of the first attack, and is summoning 1-2 units. Any Ironjaws player is turning up with a warboss on megacrusher. Any Ogre player is bringing at least one Stonehorn/Thundertusk. Dont get me started on Daughters, Slaanesh, etc. Without tailoring a list to a specific opponent, what do we have that can deal with any of those things (apart from Archaon or spamming Gaunt Summoners)? Our allegiance abilities and melee power pale in comparison to what most other armies can do and our sneaky tricks can only get us so far.

I'm glad many people are still happy with the army as I will always have a soft spot for them. However being one of the oldest GW armies out there and knowing alot of people like me still have their warriors, knights & chariots from 20 years ago, I cant help but think the army's power was purposefully held back knowing there wouldnt have been a great rush to buy new models even if they were top tier. I will be very surprised if anything other than Archaon lists do well at tournaments or even in casual games. We are better than we were, but still not great, barely even good, and that feels like a real shame. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Bloodmoon said:

oh you cant just post a result like that and not show us the list!

That's bc I don't have the list hahaha,

Don't know where to find it :(((

Some one from Goldensprue cup gt  could help us

 

 

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I know I posted a joke earlier on in this thread but now I want to wade in on this stout negativity from some posters.

People mention damage and the lack of or competitive viability.

I just don't understand this coming from a 40k background. Tournament players will spam the best units as much as possible or a battalion that gives a buff and drop advantage.

80+ mauraders in two 40 blobs with buff support is alot of dice with rend. 

Don't want damage then I think a blob of 20-25 warriors buffed and mask of darkness'd could be a foundation for a hard to shift defensive list.

Then put in Archaon/sorcerers or ravagers heroes to spread the buffs (reinforments) and auras and you have the basis of something looking like a tournament list.

This expectation of a top tier army that uses the whole of a codex, fluffy lists or specifically the models you own seems a little bit off the mark from reading all the other forums on this site and playing at stores and events.

People mention other armies but they tend to also just use the strong units and have similar negative posters. OBR use catapults and Mortek guard. DOK use witches and Morathi in one battalion from the book. Fyreslayers use one lodge and big blobs of hearthguard, IDN use eels. BOK (which I also play) has tyrants+gore pilgrims or a gore pilgrims and you don't use half the models I own for the tournament list.

From my experience at tournaments very few lists will consistently hit 4-1/5-0 and most of the time the player at the helm will make a huge difference. 

If you like the models and play beer and pretzel games or local games you will have alot of fun from this codex from my experience in 6-8 games now running all sorts. You will beat some people you will lose.

You want a 4-1, 5-0 list for a large tournament you are going to be limited in what you can use from this book just like everyone else reading their respective codex.

You want to go to the mid tables 3-2, 2-3 then I think then your options are even wider.

In the end have fun, play games and see if you can find that min-maxed ultimate list if that's what drives you. 

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Anyone made some experiences with a Cavalery list? I have 5 built and 5 unbuilt Knights and the urge to play them in a List with 6 allied Mighty Skullcrushers.

Currently I am really not sure if I want to built them with glaives again or to take the enscrolled weapons. While the Glaives seem powerfull on the Charge and the new Khorne DP makes it easier to be the charing one, the Enscrolled Weapons simply seem like the more stable option.

Also, I struggle between Despoilers with Mark of Khorne and Khorne Alligience. The ability to trade blood tithe for an additional charge in an enemies turn is just incredible with glaives. In the best case scenario you can just steamroll through the chaff right into the juicy target. Also, Khorne provides some easy accessible charge rerolls.

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2 hours ago, Enoby said:

I have some Slaves models that I tend to play in HoS, but just wondering, what is the general consensus on this book? Is it a fun book?  

I started playing Age of Sigmar a few weeks before the battletome was released.  I can say the battletome makes the game fun in that at least it is at least a chance of a contest to see who will win now instead of a forgone conclusion.  I suppose fun is subjective, but I find my Slaves to Darkness army (mostly elite mortal Leaders, Warriors and Knights) are pretty mundane and passive rank and flank style (without much ranged stuff) play compared to all the opposing factions I have faced so far.  It has  largely consists of Leader/support units buffing the Battleline mostly with a re-roll type mechanic often with layers of redundancy.  So nothing particularly flashy. I like to say more a solid fundamentals army.

My army doesn't seem to like me being aggressive like I want it to be.  I feel it is better to run my warriors to territory I want to hold, park them and let my opponent attack them rather than actually engage the enemy most of the time.  My knights allow for some aggression, but so far, they tend to get bogged down in an extended fight of attrition which they can usually hold out pretty well as everything in my army fell pretty tough.  Offensively, most of my army feels mediocre especially without some sort of buff.  I think my Chaos Lord on Karkadrak is my big offensive unit since my big block of 10 Knights can be tough to put all on one target.  A lot of my army feels a bit too many points, but not so many as to completely tank it. I do constantly find I am some 30-50 points short of adding one more decent unit though.   So pretty good at terrorist control if a little slow to get setup and certainly not invincible.  Also as an elite army may not have that big of a presence to control more than 2/3rds the table.  Offensively they feel a little weak and probably not an army to try and demolish the enemy army with and win that way.

So, I think the army can be fun even if it doesn't play as aggressive as I would have hoped.  It is pretty tough but also doesn't have the zazz that a lot of other factions have.  I could easily see players forgetting that Chaos Warriors and Knights aren't just regular mortals in heavy armor as they sort of feel like that with the power escalation that is Age of Sigmar compared to the Old World.  At the mid-level, non-highly optimized level of play where I think I am playing, I think they can win games with smart play and sticking to the Battleplan objectives.  I don't see them often winning most Battleplan tie breaker (opposing wounds removed) conditions though.

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26 minutes ago, Charleston said:

Anyone made some experiences with a Cavalery list? I have 5 built and 5 unbuilt Knights and the urge to play them in a List with 6 allied Mighty Skullcrushers.

Currently I am really not sure if I want to built them with glaives again or to take the enscrolled weapons. While the Glaives seem powerfull on the Charge and the new Khorne DP makes it easier to be the charing one, the Enscrolled Weapons simply seem like the more stable option.

Also, I struggle between Despoilers with Mark of Khorne and Khorne Alligience. The ability to trade blood tithe for an additional charge in an enemies turn is just incredible with glaives. In the best case scenario you can just steamroll through the chaff right into the juicy target. Also, Khorne provides some easy accessible charge rerolls.

I lean toward knights with ensorcelled weapons myself.  I find it a very narrow band of opposing units that lances (or the old glaives) that will destroy that ensorcelled weapons wouldn't also destroy.  Either weapon with me usually gets the knights stuck in prolonged combat where the ensorcelled weapons do much better.  You do have a good point with Khorne Daemon Prince, but I find that Slaves to Darkness are pretty thirsty for Command Points though.  I imagine those Khorne charge re-rolls probably also cost CP.  However, if they don't or you have a method to generate more before/during the game, maybe lances would work better for you.

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6 minutes ago, Saturmorn Carvilli said:

I lean toward knights with ensorcelled weapons myself.  I find it a very narrow band of opposing units that lances (or the old glaives) that will destroy that ensorcelled weapons wouldn't also destroy.  Either weapon with me usually gets the knights stuck in prolonged combat where the ensorcelled weapons do much better.  You do have a good point with Khorne Daemon Prince, but I find that Slaves to Darkness are pretty thirsty for Command Points though.  I imagine those Khorne charge re-rolls probably also cost CP.  However, if they don't or you have a method to generate more before/during the game, maybe lances would work better for you.

Well, Despoilers have access to an artifact for D3 additional CP´s while Khorne Mortals can have a reroll charges aura in the Khorne Alligience. Thanks for the input!

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So the new errata changed the awesome Nurgle Daemon Prince's Nurgle Command Ability to be more fair (Heavy Nerf LoLz!) and now all models in a unit have to have the same weapons loadout (Chaos Warriors have to ALL have double hand weapons or greatblades or runeshields - no WYSIWYG).

All in all, playing a Khorne Tyrants of Blood list with a block of "double hand weapon" Chaos Warriors in a block of 20 was amazing! I took this in a tournament prep for LVO this last week before the errata. Rerolling hits, then whip them with a Bloodstoker for rerolling wound rolls, and rerolling save rolls gave this giant unkillable block the movement they need to get into action! With the +1 to run and charge from the horn blower and the +3 to run and charge from the Bloodstoker, they get in most of the time. Buff them with a bloodsecrator and they become far more kill-y!

Also a fun tidbit of discovery - in the new Disciples of Tzeentch book, the Gaunt Summoner on Disk is both mortal and daemon. If taken from Ulgu, you can get -1 to hit from the miasmic blade Artefact, -1 to hit from the Illusionist Command Trait for Tzeentch Mortals, and the innate -1 to hit from the Tzeentch Locus for Tzeentch Daemon units makes the Gaunt Summoner on Disk a safe bet for lots of spells and mortal wounds! Drop a unit of Pink Horrors on an objective and fly 16" to the next objective! Slaves to Darkness units have lots of great synergies in lots of other factions as well.

Nurgle I have found to be the best mark to build around as it helps nerf the Big Waagh buffs to hit rolls and nerfs Shootcast lists. Combined with S2D movement with knights and chariots, and especially the beloved Marauders! it allows you have the speed to get to the objectives, the tankyness to hold them, and with rerolling wound rolls and daemonic power, combined with the incredible damage potential of your new Slaves to Darkness units, you really have the best of all worlds!

Edited by Wulfrik the Wanderer
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Hi! Noob question here.  I'm starting a Khorne S2D army for a local escalation league and am baffled by the Helm of Many Eyes.   It lets the bearer/mount fight at the start of the combat phase if they charged but don't you get to do that without the artifact?  If you charge during your turn you get to select one of your units to go first so you could just choose your general.  I know I'm missing something.  Help would be great.

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21 minutes ago, velocitydog said:

Hi! Noob question here.  I'm starting a Khorne S2D army for a local escalation league and am baffled by the Helm of Many Eyes.   It lets the bearer/mount fight at the start of the combat phase if they charged but don't you get to do that without the artifact?  If you charge during your turn you get to select one of your units to go first so you could just choose your general.  I know I'm missing something.  Help would be great.

It let's them fight first before you begin selecting units normally. So if you had that item on a Character, two Daemon Princes and a Varanguard unit fighting something they would all fight before the enemy gets a selection (three fight first, one normal selection in the Varanguard)

This is very powerful and becoming more common across the game (when both sides have this ability it is commonly referred to as "Activation wars"

It can also be very useful if it can preempt powerful enemy abilities (Mortek Guard turn on reroll saves at the start of the combat phase so on your turn this character can swing before it is active.)

Edited by Eldarain
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20 hours ago, Agent of Chaos said:

Marauders can throw a ton of dice but can still bounce off many defensive units and will die to a stiff breeze in return. 

Give them a nurgle warshrine buff and oracular visions from a sorceror and youve got marauders on a 4+ rerollable save with a 6+ aftersave. Not exactly dying to a stiff breeze. Since chaos warriors get reroll saves baseline they don't need the buff, and chaos sorc is one of the cheapest heroes that emit an aura and are good spellcasters aside, so its not unlikely that you'll have an oracular visions available to give those marauders, and the ability is just within, not wholly within, so it's easy to use. And every list ive made has a warshrine, so its not like that's a tax to make my marauders better either.

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