AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[JackStreicher]

11 hours ago, ccconner777 said:

Considering they have said the old warriors and the upgrade packs will stay in production as well as the new sculpts in the start collecting, I honestly see very little reason to hold out hope for a new multipose kit with weapons options anytime in the near future.  Pretty sure they would have come out with the battletome if they existed.

I am also waiting for a multipart kit...

[Hamartia]

13 hours ago, ccconner777 said:

Considering they have said the old warriors and the upgrade packs will stay in production as well as the new sculpts in the start collecting, I honestly see very little reason to hold out hope for a new multipose kit with weapons options anytime in the near future.  Pretty sure they would have come out with the battletome if they existed.

They have done similar releases in 40k, I dont entirely understand why though. My gut feeling is we will get them with the new campaign book, although we have no clue when that will be. It all feels like a staggered release.

There may very well be no plan. But generally when they release new push fit sculpts they adapt them into multi part kits.  If i can put on the tin foil hat for a second, the profile for great weapons is now  a "greatblade" and the current resin ones are axes 😎 which might be indicative of something (I mean this half as a joke).

From a list building point of view i hope they do as it makes the whole processoif experimenting with different loadouts easier than using those resin upgrades.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Hamartia

[LeSwordfish]

Is there anything in the Slaves book that reduces enemy charge distances other than the Daemon Prince of Khorne? In a test game the other day, an enemy charged through Entangling terrain, and we realised that because of +/- modifiers before multiplication/division, that -2 effectively became -4 and caused a roll of 8 to fail a 3" charge. Is there anything I can use to set this up more reliably?

[Grendel]

46 minutes ago, LeSwordfish said:

Is there anything in the Slaves book that reduces enemy charge distances other than the Daemon Prince of Khorne? In a test game the other day, an enemy charged through Entangling terrain, and we realised that because of +/- modifiers before multiplication/division, that -2 effectively became -4 and caused a roll of 8 to fail a 3" charge. Is there anything I can use to set this up more reliably?

There's a thread Here!

Covers all the movement and other control shenanigans that STD can come up with.

[Bloodmoon]

Its honestly why I enjoy playing with Archaon so much - control over the turn order is the most powerful thing in this game, and using it well means you can win games exceptionally quickly. 

[flemingmma]

On 1/5/2020 at 10:08 PM, Coolwood said:

Anyone got any ideas for chosen conversions? I was thinking of using deathshroud terminators and then converting them to get rid of the 40k stuff potentially. Any thoughts?

Stormcast plus multipart chaos knight parts is what I'm going with. Either than or blood warrior and blightking parts.

[Troll.exe]

The Chaos Warrior box has been marked as eligible for return to GW from retailers apparently. Which normally means it’ll go to direct order or become discontinued. I’m paraphrasing. So maybe the new multi kit box isn’t too far away after all.

[decker_cky]

14 hours ago, LeSwordfish said:

Is there anything in the Slaves book that reduces enemy charge distances other than the Daemon Prince of Khorne? In a test game the other day, an enemy charged through Entangling terrain, and we realised that because of +/- modifiers before multiplication/division, that -2 effectively became -4 and caused a roll of 8 to fail a 3" charge. Is there anything I can use to set this up more reliably?

Order of operations means you do multiplication/division before addition/subtraction.

[LeSwordfish]

Ach, yes, sorry - I meant the right thing (8/2-2 = 4-2 = 2) even if I typed the wrong one.

[Wulfrik the Wanderer]

On 12/14/2019 at 9:24 AM, JackStreicher said:

First!

alright, did anyone have any success with the Mammoth yet?

Mammoth with Slaanesh Mark and Daemonic Power and Oracular Visions is a beast. I took down a fully buffed unit of 30 witchelves and a cauldron before he went down. He is great with Archaon and the horror ghast endless spell in all Bravery Bomb lists (don't take BB lists vs DoK fyi). I love using him because he has great wound output and lots of wounds to soak up the damage. Play him in Despoilers for greatest effect as all Monsters on a 4+ in your hero phase heal d3 wounds. Combined with the Despoilers Command Trait "Radiance of Dark Glory" on a 3+ he can heal another wound. I like to play Archaon because he gets the Monster heal, doesn't need to be the general so you can get the Radiance of Dark Glory heal, and you can pick the Khorne Head to possibly heal 3d3 wounds in your hero phase! Bring a mammoth and a ton of marauders for flavor! Make unmarked if you want more tanky-ness and bring along a Warshrine, You'll be surprised how hard those big tankers are to remove!

Edited January 8, 2020 by Wulfrik the Wanderer

[Wulfrik the Wanderer]

On 1/7/2020 at 8:27 AM, LeSwordfish said:

Is there anything in the Slaves book that reduces enemy charge distances other than the Daemon Prince of Khorne? In a test game the other day, an enemy charged through Entangling terrain, and we realised that because of +/- modifiers before multiplication/division, that -2 effectively became -4 and caused a roll of 8 to fail a 3" charge. Is there anything I can use to set this up more reliably?

Reduction to charges is nice, but without shooting units that are reliable, I would rather get in combat by any means than keep units out (exluding knights with lances of course). Best thing in my opinion is let the opponent charge and just make your dudes super tanky, which you have a myriad of ways to do. You could be Unmarked with a Chaos Warshrine. If you have CP to spend bring a Harbinger of Decay and a Chaos Warshrine. You could try my favorite strategy of increasing the threshold of what your enemy needs to even make their first dice roll by bringing the Lord of Blights -2 to hit in shooting and -1 to hit in melee if you have over 10 models. I bring Ravagers and take the Master of Deception command trait and the Miasmic Blade from Ulgu. Nurgle mark everything and bring a Lord of Blights and your opponent's "Top Tier Faction" goes back to bottom tier as he struggles with a -3 to hit your general and -2 to shoot your units (-1 in melee). Also the Nurgle Daemon Prince has a great deterring ability for that friend of yours who always rolls hot, spend a CP and watch those Grots and Daemonettes die with 6's doing d3 MWs back at them! Combined with the minus's to hit, 6's are what they'll need to even do damage to you, and with the punish, it becomes a lose-lose scenario.

[Wulfrik the Wanderer]

On 1/5/2020 at 8:22 AM, Tiberius501 said:

Hey all, I was considering making an Everchosen list using nothing but Archaon and Varanguard. It seems potentially viable, since they can get insane quality of attacks due to aura buffs and the +1dmg Circle. Is it worth spending the points on their Battalion? I can also have a Khorne Lord on Jugg with the remaining points. Or is it worth just having a 4th unit of Varanguard? 

Cheers

Competitively or just as a casual list? Battalion is super situational, I would not take it in Everchosen as it becomes redundant.  I would use it as a way to get Circles outside of playing Everchosen lists. That being said, if you are looking for competitive lists with Archaon and some Varanguard you might have even better luck in Despoilers or Ravagers. That said, Everchosen would still work! Archaon's 18" aura in Everchosen is large, but you would want to cover the rest of the battlefield as your Varanguard are going to need to run in different directions depending on the scenarios. It is a very viable list, but I would augment it with a few things:

Slaves to Darkness : Everchosen, Realm Aqshy (2000pts)

Heroes:

Archaon (800pts)- General, Slaanesh Mark, Spell - Spite-tongue Curse

Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)- Artefact - Ignax's Scales, Slaanesh Mark, Spell - Mask of Darkness

Units:

Varanguard (300pts)- Battleline, Slaanesh Mark

Varanguard (300pts)- Battleline, Slaanesh Mark

Varanguard (300pts)- Battleline, Slaanesh Mark

Chaos Warshrine (170pts)- Slaanesh Mark

Endless Spells: 

Suffocating Gravetide (20pts)

82 wounds

Having another hero besides Archaon gives you flexibility with the aura effects. You don't need to stay under the auras, but exploding 6's on the Varanguard's 18 attacks 3+ 3+ -1 2 (obviously take 6th circle, just do it) is sure to free them up for another charge which you need to keep up the killing power of your army. Having a Chaos Lord to give rerolls to everything to a unit of Varanguard (or Archaon) to get in will pay dividends, and the Warshrine's aura will give your Varanguard a much needed Mortal Wound shrug. Also, your Warshrine can simulate Daemonic power by doing the Unmarked Prayer on a 3+ to another unit of Varanguard (or Archaon). You will have 2 command points a turn with Archaon on the field so one for you to By My Will a unit of Varanguard just incase they take a nasty crack-back swing or to reroll a charge, and one to see who is going next. I would recommend doing the later first. Most important thing about Varanguard I tell people is to almost always do the once per battle double pile in if they didn't quite finish off the unit. Getting them to charge again is going to be the goal of the army and eventually how you will win. I do recomment dropping a unit of Varanguard if you are looking at a tournament, and bringing 40 marauders in Slaanesh Mark. The ignoring battleshock with Everchosen will make it an even more deadly unit moving up the field.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Wulfrik the Wanderer

[ccconner777]

In case its useful or interesting to anyone Im posting some math i did to compare chaos warriors to a near analogue, ardboys. Probably isnt new info to anyone really but ardboys put out 10-50% more damage with some buffs going up to more than double the damage of the warriors with all their buffs stacked. But i was also kinda surprised at how much more durable the warriors can be, about double the effective wounds against 1 rend when they have +1 to save from the warshrine's nurgle buff.

Offensive output

10 Warriors with dual weapons (Average damage vs. 5+ save): 7.9

With Nurgle Or Slaneesh hero aura: 9.9

With aura and Warshrine buff giving reroll wounds: 13.1

10 Ardboys: 7.4

With +1 to hit and wound in the Big Waaagh!: 11.6

Warchanter buff: 14.8

Warchanter and Big Waaagh buffs: 23.2

Additionally the Waaagh command ability can increase any of these by another 50%

Defense (effective wounds/number of wounds before saves required to kill unit)

20 Warriors (4+ save, rerolling saves for 1/2 of wounds taken/when at 10+ models, and 5+ mortal wound save)

0 rend: 120

1 rend: 75

0 rend with +1 save from Warshrine (Nurgle warriors only): 240

1 rend with +1 save from Warshrine (nurgle warrriors only): 120

Mortal wounds: 60

20 Ardboys (4+ save and 6+ non mortal aftersave on 2/5 of models)

0 rend: 86

1 rend: 65

Mortal wounds: 40

[Reisyo]

1 hour ago, Wulfrik the Wanderer said:

Competitively or just as a casual list? Battalion is super situational, I would not take it in Everchosen as it becomes redundant.  I would use it as a way to get Circles outside of playing Everchosen lists. That being said, if you are looking for competitive lists with Archaon and some Varanguard you might have even better luck in Despoilers or Ravagers. That said, Everchosen would still work! Archaon's 18" aura in Everchosen is large, but you would want to cover the rest of the battlefield as your Varanguard are going to need to run in different directions depending on the scenarios. It is a very viable list, but I would augment it with a few things:

Slaves to Darkness : Everchosen, Realm Aqshy (2000pts)

Heroes:

Archaon (800pts)- General, Slaanesh Mark, Spell - Spite-tongue Curse

Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)- Artefact - Ignax's Scales, Slaanesh Mark, Spell - Mask of Darkness

Units:

Varanguard (300pts)- Battleline, Slaanesh Mark

Varanguard (300pts)- Battleline, Slaanesh Mark

Varanguard (300pts)- Battleline, Slaanesh Mark

Chaos Warshrine (170pts)- Slaanesh Mark

Endless Spells: 

Suffocating Gravetide (20pts)

82 wounds

Having another hero besides Archaon gives you flexibility with the aura effects. You don't need to stay under the auras, but exploding 6's on the Varanguard's 18 attacks 3+ 3+ -1 2 (obviously take 6th circle, just do it) is sure to free them up for another charge which you need to keep up the killing power of your army. Having a Chaos Lord to give rerolls to everything to a unit of Varanguard (or Archaon) to get in will pay dividends, and the Warshrine's aura will give your Varanguard a much needed Mortal Wound shrug. Also, your Warshrine can simulate Daemonic power by doing the Unmarked Prayer on a 3+ to another unit of Varanguard (or Archaon). You will have 2 command points a turn with Archaon on the field so one for you to By My Will a unit of Varanguard just incase they take a nasty crack-back swing or to reroll a charge, and one to see who is going next. I would recommend doing the later first. Most important thing about Varanguard I tell people is to almost always do the once per battle double pile in if they didn't quite finish off the unit. Getting them to charge again is going to be the goal of the army and eventually how you will win. I do recomment dropping a unit of Varanguard if you are looking at a tournament, and bringing 40 marauders in Slaanesh Mark. The ignoring battleshock with Everchosen will make it an even more deadly unit moving up the field.

Are you sure that slaanesh mark is better than the Khorne Mark? even with the Marauders im not sure which one is better.  With Khorne you are also able to ally an Bloodsecrator for extra attacks. A Chaos lord on foot might be a good idea, too. Just for the Archaon double pile in

[Wulfrik the Wanderer]

1 hour ago, Reisyo said:

Are you sure that slaanesh mark is better than the Khorne Mark? even with the Marauders im not sure which one is better.  With Khorne you are also able to ally an Bloodsecrator for extra attacks. A Chaos lord on foot might be a good idea, too. Just for the Archaon double pile in

Khorne is descent, but exploding 6s can add more attacks if the roll is spiked, and at worst, sures up attack rolls. It is as good as "rerolling hits". The volume of attacks allows the weight of the dice to allow more spiked rolls. Marauders, slaanesh mark for sure. The number of attacks is just too good to not bring slaanesh mark. Only issue with Khorne is you need to plan on bringing those pieces and build around it. Otherwise, it ends up being a points tax. A build with Khorne needs to comit to being Khorne. And Archaon double pile-in is great, three pile-ins in Slaanesh right now is even better. The problem with double pile-in, is you need to have models left to pile-in to. Since you spend the CP at the beginning of the combat phase with the Chaos Lord on foot, it might end up being a wast without a Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury giving Archaon a 6" pile in, Archaon might just (and often does) kill his way out of combat (might not be a bad thing, but if wasting a CP then I'd rather not). If I was fighting it, I would pull from the front of my units and pull him out of combat, allowing me to charge back with other units, possibly getting buffs and benefits.

Khorne mark gives +1 to wound. Well most of Archaon's abilities hit on a 2+ anyways, and giving an aura effect for your Varanguard to get +1 to wound is still not as good as a 3+ rerolling. And you would be rerolling everything using Daemonic Power. Besides, in a critical review of the Hedonites Battletome, the only thing that breaks the exploding 6's rules is the lack of rerolling. Rerolling everything into exploding 6's often sees far more additional attacks than a Bloodsecrator would provide.  Example: rolling 18 dice on 3+ to hit 3+ to wound rerolling both, 6's generating additional hits allows me to get about 22 hits followed by 18 wounds at -1 rend 2 damage each. This compared to a 19 hits, 16 wounds -1 2 damage each. It just mathematically is better to mark slaanesh unless you specifically build for Khorne.

Khorne isn't bad, it is actually very, very good. But with the list provided, I would do Slaanesh. If you change things up, Khorne might become more viable. (I main Khorne everything btw, so not just a biased HoS duche)

Edited January 8, 2020 by Wulfrik the Wanderer

[Reisyo]

Yeah you are absolutely right about the chaos lord! If my opponent plays smart it will be hard to utilize its ability.  The easy rerolls into exploding sixes makes sense, too. Thank you for your long and detailed answer, it really helped a lot with my own list building.  Im a Slaanesh player, not by choice tho - my buddies bought me the starter for my birthday - their fault! I like every Chaos god tho so i will need to find another way for having some khorne action  . Cheers

[JackStreicher]

4 hours ago, Wulfrik the Wanderer said:

Mammoth with Slaanesh Mark and Daemonic Power and Oracular Visions is a beast. I took down a fully buffed unit of 30 witchelves and a cauldron before he went down. He is great with Archaon and the horror ghast endless spell in all Bravery Bomb lists (don't take BB lists vs DoK fyi). I love using him because he has great wound output and lots of wounds to soak up the damage. Play him in Despoilers for greatest effect as all Monsters on a 4+ in your hero phase heal d3 wounds. Combined with the Despoilers Command Trait "Radiance of Dark Glory" on a 3+ he can heal another wound. I like to play Archaon because he gets the Monster heal, doesn't need to be the general so you can get the Radiance of Dark Glory heal, and you can pick the Khorne Head to possibly heal 3d3 wounds in your hero phase! Bring a mammoth and a ton of marauders for flavor! Make unmarked if you want more tanky-ness and bring along a Warshrine, You'll be surprised how hard those big tankers are to remove!

Mine performed also well: buffed by a Chaos Lord on foot my mammoth fought twice (slaanesh) dealing 34 dmg to ardboys. It never went down though my despoiler trait never worked (it was healing on a 4+ right?)

[Hamartia]

Is there a consencus on Marauder weapons in the new book? I was always a firm believer in hordes as a rule of thumb should take 2" weapons like flails, but the 2 attacks from the axe and extra save muddy the waters a little bit for me along with the potential use of the Darkoath Chieftan command ability making the loss of +1 AS not as impactful to damage output due to losing models.

I'm also aware that currently RAW there is an interpretation that maruaders can mix weapons, but for the time being im gonna put a pin in that until we get an FAQ.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Hamartia

[Bloodmoon]

I would go with shields. Because of 25mm bases you can get 2 ranks fighting anyway, and the extra attack+extra save is pretty important. Having a 6+ save sucks lol

[Spears]

Just a heads up for any STD players who don't want to lob some glue in their bits box for a chaos spawn, the issue of 40k Conquest out later this month looks to have two chaos spawn on it for around 8 quid.

[Grimrock]

20 minutes ago, Spears said:

Just a heads up for any STD players who don't want to lob some glue in their bits box for a chaos spawn, the issue of 40k Conquest out later this month looks to have two chaos spawn on it for around 8 quid.

Man alive I wish they had those in Canada. Sounds like such a good deal.

[ccconner777]

So I played a casual game last night against LoN and a few things stuck out.

1: 5 chaos warriors with rerolling saves from my sorc lord shrugged off a unit of 10 buffed black knights on the charge (extra attacks from a spell and double damage on the lances), taking only 3 wounds. And this was without the +1 to save from the Warshrine prayer or the 6+ aftersave from the warshrine aura.

2: 40 marauders with the help of the CA on the nurgle daemon prince killed 2 units of 6 spirit hosts and a cairne wraith and were cleaning up 10 skeletons and a necromancer when we called the game after the top of the 3rd battle round. I still had about 15 models remaining in the unit.

3: Whispers of chaos (roll a dice for every model in an enemy unit, 6+ = mortal wound and if any models die, the unit cant move) was harder to use than I expected. I never had an opportunity to cast it because of the 12" range.  Unless you double turn them, your oppenent has to have moved his unit into range of the spell on the turn prior, in which case they probably charged you anyway and then all you'll be restricting with the spell when you cast it in your following turn is preventing retreats or pile ins, but theyll have already had a chance to pile in once anyway. I suppose if they fail the charge the spell can then keep them out of combat for another whole battleround, which could be good. I might just not know the game well enough to understand its true value, but ill probably go with something else next time.

[Agent of Chaos]

Played a league game last night; 1250 points - Places of Arcane Power against Daughters of Kaine. Learnt a few lessons from this game and hopefully can pass on some useful tips to other Slaves players (skip to the bottom if you dont care about the battle report and feel free to offer list building or tactical suggestions as I am all ears!)...

Tough match up at the best of times yet I was right in it to start with, up 3-1 on VP at end of round 2. Had I won the roll off I would have gone to 6, possibly 7VP and have been in the box seat. Unfortunately I lost the roll off, got steamrolled and had to call it end of my turn 3.

I took a Despoilers list with 2 x Daemon Princes, Sorcerer Lord, 10 warriors, 5 knights and 20 Marauders. All Mark of Khorne (Sorcerer Undivided). I went with Godsworn Champions of Ruin Battalion as I thought my General fighting in the hero phase would assist him with defending the objective and I wanted 2 artifacts; Ethereal Amulet for my Daemon Prince General to make him really hard to kill while he sat on the objective and Diabolic Mantle on the other Prince for the extra Command Points I would surely need. Sorcerer took Mask of Darkness spell. Command Trait was Paragon of Ruin for the pregame bonus move towards the objectives.

My opponent ran the Cauldron Guard Battalion (+1 to run and charge) in the Hagg Nar Temple (reroll all hits from round 3 onwards plus bonus to fanatical faith saves); Cauldron of Blood (with Griff Feather Charm) 2 x Hag Queens, 2 x 20 Witch Elves and 2 x 5 Kinneral Lifetakers. Daughters are such a broken army, so many buffs without having to roll anything; reroll hits and wounds, run and charge, fanatical faith saves, immune to battleshock, mortal wounds on 6+ saves, stupid number of attacks, deepstrike and all that on top of ridiculous prayers that are only 3+ to cast. 

Turn 1: I got first turn, failed Mask of Darkness despite arcane terrain, popped the Khorne command ability on both Daemon Princes, ran Daemon Prince General onto centre objective and 10 warriors next to him as bodyguard. Second Daemon Prince and marauders positioned on right flank, sorcerer moved towards left objective and knights up left flank. 1VP to me but a few tactical errors that would soon be exposed.

The daughters moved forward but thanks to halving runs and charges they couldnt reach me or the objectives, just as I had planned/hoped. However I had totally forgotten about the Kinnerai in the sky who both came down and made their charges thanks to +1 from the battalion. Somehow my sorcerer survived, mostly due to only 5 out of 10 actually being able to hit him with 1" range on 40mm bases. 0VP for him.

Turn 2: I won roll off and managed to mask of Darkness my sorcerer out of melee. Unfortunately couldnt teleport to the either free objective as that would have put him within 9" of the enemy so moved him to the middle where he could at least give reroll saves to the General. As the enemy could easily move to 3" away I didnt bother to use the Daemon Prince's command ability... I really should have and that was a massive lesson from this game.

My knights turned around and charged the Kinnerai and on the right flank I took a huge gamble. The Cauldron had moved out in front so I hit it with the 2nd Daemon Prince (who could do so while still within 3" of the right side objective) and the marauders. All were within range of my generals buff (thanks to Despoilers 18" range) so would have plus 1 to wound. Sadly apart from a single hit of 6 with the sword the Daemon Prince whiffed, and the 20 Marauders only managed another 2 wounds for 4 total. -1 to hit from Griff feather charm really hurt them, along with generally poor rolling from me and good saves from him. In return 14 Maraduers and the Daemon Prince were killed by the cauldron and the handful of witches in range.  At least the knights killed one unit of Kinnerai. I used a CP to keep the 6 surviving marauders in melee to pin him for a turn. 2 more VP to me (would have been 3 if I didnt send my 2nd Daemon Prince in to die but I thought that I had to take the chance to remove the cauldron).

A hag queen ran onto my right side objective while the cauldron and one unit of witches finished off the marauders. The other unit of witches charged the 10 chaos warriors (but rolled a 4 and so would have failed had I used the Command Ability) and after their 60 attacks I had 35 saves to make. 4+ rerollable but still managed to fail 10 so half the unit was gone. Used a CP to keep them around. The 2nd unit of Kinnerai retreated from my knights and in position to charge my wizard should he win the double turn. Score was 3-1 and I really needed the double turn to teleport my sorcerer onto the left objective and score another 3VP with the general so of course I rolled a 1 and got double turned.

Turn 3: This is where I really regretted not popping the command ability. Now free to move the Cauldron and 2nd unit of witches moved into position. Both would have failed their charges with Bloodslick Ground active. My Daemon Prince whiffed with all his attacks, the Kinnerai killed the Sorcerer but the Daemon Prince survived the cauldron and witchelves thanks to his 3+ unrendable, rerollable save and 5+ aftersave. The chaos warriors were finished off and he scored another 2VP for a 3-3 all tie.

Bottom of the 3rd and, having failed the 4+ to heal wounds and no longer having the sorcerer's reroll saves, the witches and cauldron finished off the daemon prince, effectively ending the game.

Main takeaways were:

1) When running a khorne daemon prince, always use Bloodslick Ground!!! Even if you think theres no point, it lasts through your opponent's double turn and you never know when your opponent will roll 5 or less for a charge roll.

2) I should have sent my second daemon prince to my left hand objective. He could have got their first turn with no enemies in site and I would have been on 6VP after round 2 to his 1VP, and minimum 9, if not 12VP after round 3.

3) Against an army like Daughters we just dont have the melee power to stand against them. I should ahve played more defensively rather than taking the gamble on fighting the cauldron.

4) A Nurgle Daemon Princes's command ability on nurgle marked warriors and marauders wound have done real work in that game...

5) Without extra attacks from an allied bloodsecrator/wrathmongers, Daemon Princes really arent that great in combat. I guess a Sword of Judgement is never a bad call however they just dont roll enough dice. Could say the same about marauders, they look good on paper but trading the whole unit for only 2 wounds on the cauldron really hurt.

[Predien]

37 minutes ago, Agent of Chaos said:

Played a league game last night; 1250 points - Places of Arcane Power against Daughters of Kaine. Learnt a few lessons from this game and hopefully can pass on some useful tips to other Slaves players (skip to the bottom if you dont care about the battle report and feel free to offer list building or tactical suggestions as I am all ears!)...

Tough match up at the best of times yet I was right in it to start with, up 3-1 on VP at end of round 2. Had I won the roll off I would have gone to 6, possibly 7VP and have been in the box seat. Unfortunately I lost the roll off, got steamrolled and had to call it end of my turn 3.

I took a Despoilers list with 2 x Daemon Princes, Sorcerer Lord, 10 warriors, 5 knights and 20 Marauders. All Mark of Khorne (Sorcerer Undivided). I went with Godsworn Champions of Ruin Battalion as I thought my General fighting in the hero phase would assist him with defending the objective and I wanted 2 artifacts; Ethereal Amulet for my Daemon Prince General to make him really hard to kill while he sat on the objective and Diabolic Mantle on the other Prince for the extra Command Points I would surely need. Sorcerer took Mask of Darkness spell. Command Trait was Paragon of Ruin for the pregame bonus move towards the objectives.

My opponent ran the Cauldron Guard Battalion (+1 to run and charge) in the Hagg Nar Temple (reroll all hits from round 3 onwards plus bonus to fanatical faith saves); Cauldron of Blood (with Griff Feather Charm) 2 x Hag Queens, 2 x 20 Witch Elves and 2 x 5 Kinneral Lifetakers. Daughters are such a broken army, so many buffs without having to roll anything; reroll hits and wounds, run and charge, fanatical faith saves, immune to battleshock, mortal wounds on 6+ saves, stupid number of attacks, deepstrike and all that on top of ridiculous prayers that are only 3+ to cast. 

Turn 1: I got first turn, failed Mask of Darkness despite arcane terrain, popped the Khorne command ability on both Daemon Princes, ran Daemon Prince General onto centre objective and 10 warriors next to him as bodyguard. Second Daemon Prince and marauders positioned on right flank, sorcerer moved towards left objective and knights up left flank. 1VP to me but a few tactical errors that would soon be exposed.

The daughters moved forward but thanks to halving runs and charges they couldnt reach me or the objectives, just as I had planned/hoped. However I had totally forgotten about the Kinnerai in the sky who both came down and made their charges thanks to +1 from the battalion. Somehow my sorcerer survived, mostly due to only 5 out of 10 actually being able to hit him with 1" range on 40mm bases. 0VP for him.

Turn 2: I won roll off and managed to mask of Darkness my sorcerer out of melee. Unfortunately couldnt teleport to the either free objective as that would have put him within 9" of the enemy so moved him to the middle where he could at least give reroll saves to the General. As the enemy could easily move to 3" away I didnt bother to use the Daemon Prince's command ability... I really should have and that was a massive lesson from this game.

My knights turned around and charged the Kinnerai and on the right flank I took a huge gamble. The Cauldron had moved out in front so I hit it with the 2nd Daemon Prince (who could do so while still within 3" of the right side objective) and the marauders. All were within range of my generals buff (thanks to Despoilers 18" range) so would have plus 1 to wound. Sadly apart from a single hit of 6 with the sword the Daemon Prince whiffed, and the 20 Marauders only managed another 2 wounds for 4 total. -1 to hit from Griff feather charm really hurt them, along with generally poor rolling from me and good saves from him. In return 14 Maraduers and the Daemon Prince were killed by the cauldron and the handful of witches in range.  At least the knights killed one unit of Kinnerai. I used a CP to keep the 6 surviving marauders in melee to pin him for a turn. 2 more VP to me (would have been 3 if I didnt send my 2nd Daemon Prince in to die but I thought that I had to take the chance to remove the cauldron).

A hag queen ran onto my right side objective while the cauldron and one unit of witches finished off the marauders. The other unit of witches charged the 10 chaos warriors (but rolled a 4 and so would have failed had I used the Command Ability) and after their 60 attacks I had 35 saves to make. 4+ rerollable but still managed to fail 10 so half the unit was gone. Used a CP to keep them around. The 2nd unit of Kinnerai retreated from my knights and in position to charge my wizard should he win the double turn. Score was 3-1 and I really needed the double turn to teleport my sorcerer onto the left objective and score another 3VP with the general so of course I rolled a 1 and got double turned.

Turn 3: This is where I really regretted not popping the command ability. Now free to move the Cauldron and 2nd unit of witches moved into position. Both would have failed their charges with Bloodslick Ground active. My Daemon Prince whiffed with all his attacks, the Kinnerai killed the Sorcerer but the Daemon Prince survived the cauldron and witchelves thanks to his 3+ unrendable, rerollable save and 5+ aftersave. The chaos warriors were finished off and he scored another 2VP for a 3-3 all tie.

Bottom of the 3rd and, having failed the 4+ to heal wounds and no longer having the sorcerer's reroll saves, the witches and cauldron finished off the daemon prince, effectively ending the game.

Main takeaways were:

1) When running a khorne daemon prince, always use Bloodslick Ground!!! Even if you think theres no point, it lasts through your opponent's double turn and you never know when your opponent will roll 5 or less for a charge roll.

2) I should have sent my second daemon prince to my left hand objective. He could have got their first turn with no enemies in site and I would have been on 6VP after round 2 to his 1VP, and minimum 9, if not 12VP after round 3.

3) Against an army like Daughters we just dont have the melee power to stand against them. I should ahve played more defensively rather than taking the gamble on fighting the cauldron.

4) A Nurgle Daemon Princes's command ability on nurgle marked warriors and marauders wound have done real work in that game...

5) Without extra attacks from an allied bloodsecrator/wrathmongers, Daemon Princes really arent that great in combat. I guess a Sword of Judgement is never a bad call however they just dont roll enough dice. Could say the same about marauders, they look good on paper but trading the whole unit for only 2 wounds on the cauldron really hurt.

Thanks for writing this up!  I feel like bringing a batallion in a 1250pt game, especially for StD, is rough.  180pts is 20 more marauders, 5 more warriors + some endless spells, etc.  And that batallion really favors a more combat-focused mortal hero, not a sorcerer (just my 2 cents).

 

Also, I don't think you have enough units to fulfill the batallion tax for Champions of Ruin   You need 4 units and I only counted 3 - your warriors, marauders and knights

[THUNDERHAMMER]

Anybody cook up a knight heavy list? Ruinbringer really ups the value of em to me