AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[Double Misfire]

15 hours ago, skeen77 said:

So I don't really play the game (read: never actually played AoS) but I like to follow along and collect and paint.  So while it's not a really big deal for me, I'm wondering whether it makes more sense to build, just in case,  that one knight from the new Start Collecting box with the lance or with the flail.  I'm assuming that the lance will be recommended, but wanted your opinions.  Thanks.

The flail's a (free) weapon option for the unit champion instead of a lance. It will reliably do more damage off the charge, but will struggle to keep up with lances on the charge. Go for whichever you think looks coolest. 🙂

[Dracan]

 

4 hours ago, Rors said:

Hmm, I looked at the d6 and moved on, the variance is too great. That being said if you reliably get him swinging 3d6 times that's an average of 10, with the sword of judgement that exploding on fives against heroes I suppose there's merit.. And it's our cheapest aura bubble..But I think I'd rather give the extra attacks to a large unit most of the time. The variance on one model rolling d6 to generate attacks is going to give you just as many whiffs and hot dice, and an average of 3.5 attacks each round isn't great.

If you want a duelist the Warqueen seems a better option to me. Attacks first, with 6 attacks that's only 1 less than the average 7 of 2d6 and if you have a lord around she'll average 2 attacks more than the exalted. Less armour but 1 more wound and going first as compared with 2 activations gives an offensive sort of defense, although she won't be quite as tanky. And you loose on the aura bubble... Hmm, maybe you're on to something? I dunno, the RNG just makes me very cautious when I look at the exalted.

That said, that one game where a 90 point dude gets 18 attacks that explode into d6 wounds and deletes something quadrupedal his worth would be amazing, if I was your opponent I'd ask you to skip the eye of the gods roll and just place down a daemon prince.

 

 

Oh i totally agree that he is very very random and swingy. Problem with the queen is she is unmarkable so cant fit in the battalion. Also 90 pts and an artifact gamble is probably worth it as if it fluffs, it isnt like it was a huge investment. His fight twice also doesnt cost a cp like the queens would which makes him pretty independent.

But yeah will surely be a very memorable moment when he rolls hot and dispatches a bloodthirster or a stardrake or even nagash.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Dracan

[Forrix]

19 hours ago, Gibs said:

That is also how I am reading it. You pick a Mark and that is what the unit has access to regardless of whether not it has more than one keyword on the profile. The counter argument is much weaker, clearly not intended and even RAW argument falls short IMO.

What counter argument are you referring to? Archaon doesn't have the Mark of Chaos rule on his warscroll, he just has the god names in the keyword section. The Mutalith Vortex Beast can only have the Tzeentch keyword but still has the Mark of Chaos rule on his warscroll. The only argument I see for Archaon not benefiting from multiple keywords is on Warscrolls with the Mark of Chaos rule its says "following Mark of Chaos keyword(s): [god names]" which implies God names alone qualify for being a Mark of Chaos. This does seem to be the RAW however it creates a pretty bad scenario where how a Warscroll works is limited by the specific wording on a different warscroll and not anything in the allegiance abilites or core rules. 

I wouldn't want to tell an opponent in a tournament that his list doesn't work the way he thinks it does because a rule written on a different warscroll from Archaon's implies that Archaon is effected by a limitation of the Mark of Chaos rule even though Mark of Chaos is an ability that is not on Archaon's warscroll.  

[Midjithero]

20 hours ago, TALegion said:

The book says:

"If you select a unit with more than one Mark of Chaos keyword to be part of your army, you must pick which one will apply to that unit for the duration of the battle."

I interpreted that as meaning that Archaon can still only choose to be one mark and be affected by one mark. So, in this case, he could not be Khorne and be affected by the aura of a Tzeentch sorcerer.

So, the section about the Marks that you are referring to is specifically talking about about the Subjects (specific hero) Mark that he produces (Aura).  When you have multiple marks, you must select one to use as your AURA.

So, you have a hero unit, and that bro selects a mark of Khorne, and that mark then becomes an aura that has a range of 12” which grants reroll hits.  If that bro is your general, the aura he has also grants +1 W.   That aura affects any  S2D unit that has the same god KEYWORD that the hero bro has.  So, in this example, Bro’s aura affects Chaos Warriors marked with Khorne, Knights marked Khorne, Archaon, but not Slaanesh Chosen.

Now, Archaon chooses Khorne as his Mark AURA, and produces the same affect as above to the Warriors, Knights, himself and The Hero Bro, but not to the Slaanesh Chosen, even though Archaon has the Slaanesh KEYWORD, he chose to produce the AURA MARK of Khorne.

A Sorcerer Sis chooses to be marked Slaanesh when you set her up on the battlefield.  As a S2D hero, she too has an AURA that affects units with the same mark: Slaanesh.  Sis’ AURA affects the Slaanesh Chosen and Archaon (because he never lost his Slaanesh KEYWORD), but does not affect Bro, Warriors or Knights because they only have the Khorne KEYWORD.

im sure this will show up when they release the S2D FAQ after a few weeks, and it will shine some light, but this is how I and a lot of my tourney friends interpret  the rule.  

this is why the Warshrine is so powerful with Archaon...the Warshrine prayer doesn’t care what mark the Warshrine is.  When you select a unit to target with the Warshrines prayer, the target gets the first bonus, and receives the second bonus if the targeted unit has the same keyword as the prayer.  Aka. Archaon always receives both buffs from the Warshrine.

[Blisterfeet]

Spoiler

Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness
- Damned Legion: Host of the Everchosen (Sixth Circle)
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Archaon the Everchosen (800)
- General
- Aura of Chaos: Khorne
- Spell: Binding Damnation
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (260)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Spell: Whispers of Chaos
Gaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch (260)
- Spell: Ruinous Vigour
5 x Chaos Knights (180)
- Ensorcelled Weapons
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
5 x Chaos Knights (180)
- Ensorcelled Weapons
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
3 x Varanguard (300)
- 1x Ensorcelled Weapons
- 2x Fellspears
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 82
 

So I am torn which is better and play test the above and also another version using more troops, one with 10 Chaos warriors instead of the GS and 20 mauraders with the Endless spells instead of the GS. 

If anyone wants to try there hand at improving it the below spoiler has all my models;

Spoiler

Archaon

Chaos Sorcerer/Lord on Manticore

Chaos Lord/Exalted champion on foot

Gaunt summoner (gonna sort the disc bit)

15 Chaos warriors

40 Mauraders

10 Chaos Knights

1 Chaos warshrine

1 Gorebeast Chariot

All the new endless spells

2500 points of Khorne (goretides, bloodthirsters etc)

2000 points of Nurgle (including a GUO)

 

 

[Asamu]

18 minutes ago, Forrix said:

What counter argument are you referring to? Archaon doesn't have the Mark of Chaos rule on his warscroll, he just has the god names in the keyword section. The Mutalith Vortex Beast can only have the Tzeentch keyword but still has the Mark of Chaos rule on his warscroll. The only argument I see for Archaon not benefiting from multiple keywords is on Warscrolls with the Mark of Chaos rule its says "following Mark of Chaos keyword(s): [god names]" which implies God names alone qualify for being a Mark of Chaos. This does seem to be the RAW however it creates a pretty bad scenario where how a Warscroll works is limited by the specific wording on a different warscroll and not anything in the allegiance abilites or core rules. 

I wouldn't want to tell an opponent in a tournament that his list doesn't work the way he thinks it does because a rule written on a different warscroll from Archaon's implies that Archaon is effected by a limitation of the Mark of Chaos rule even though Mark of Chaos is an ability that is not on Archaon's warscroll.  

The counter argument is that Archaon is the only model with multiple mark of chaos keywords... That clarification on the rule can only be applied to him. There's no other reason for it to be there.

"If you select a unit with more than one Mark of Chaos keyword to be part of your army, you must pick which one will apply to that unit for the duration of the battle." While this rule is in the section about the Aura of Chaos rules, the rule as written is about the keywords, not the auras, and examples are provided just prior to this to clarify that. You pick which keyword to apply for Archaon, not which aura to apply, so he'd be treated as not having the other keywords by RAW.

[Dracan]

Talking about marks, you guys reckon the intent was to make the warcry  models have undivided instead of no mark? This considering the allegiance abilities requires all hero units to have one of the 5 marks? 

 

[Gibs]

14 minutes ago, Asamu said:

The counter argument is that Archaon is the only model with multiple mark of chaos keywords... That clarification on the rule can only be applied to him. There's no other reason for it to be there.

"If you select a unit with more than one Mark of Chaos keyword to be part of your army, you must pick which one will apply to that unit for the duration of the battle." While this rule is in the section about the Aura of Chaos rules, the rule as written is about the keywords, not the auras, and examples are provided just prior to this to clarify that. You pick which keyword to apply for Archaon, not which aura to apply, so he'd be treated as not having the other keywords by RAW.

Exactly this, it was written for Archaon no way to interpret it differently IMO

[TALegion]

32 minutes ago, Midjithero said:

snips

So, to paraphrase, you're saying that the passage I cited was only referring to hero's auras, and not the entire function of their keywords? So, Archaon still chooses only one aura to give out, but he can be a recipient of all other auras simultaneously? e.g. Archaon can give out Khorne, but still be affected by other heroes' Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch auras at the same time.

Honestly, that makes sense to me. I did notice the oddity that Archaon has every keyword, which would function similarly to Mark of Chaos if he had to only pick one mark per game. The only other functional difference I can think of would be that it would allow Archaon to be part of god-specific armies without using ally points, correct?

Either way, I imagine that this is a good topic for the FAQ. It would be a nice, fluffy bonus for Archaon, so I'd like that.

[Forrix]

9 minutes ago, TALegion said:

So, to paraphrase, you're saying that the passage I cited was only referring to hero's auras, and not the entire function of their keywords? So, Archaon still chooses only one aura to give out, but he can be a recipient of all other auras simultaneously? e.g. Archaon can give out Khorne, but still be affected by other heroes' Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch auras at the same time.

Honestly, that makes sense to me. I did notice the oddity that Archaon has every keyword, which would function similarly to Mark of Chaos if he had to only pick one mark per game. The only other functional difference I can think of would be that it would allow Archaon to be part of god-specific armies without using ally points, correct?

Either way, I imagine that this is a good topic for the FAQ. It would be a nice, fluffy bonus for Archaon, so I'd like that.

Pretty much my thought.  He would also still be able to be apart of god-specific armies without using ally points with just the Mark of Chaos ability same as the other units with Marks.

Definitely a good FAQ question. 

[Forrix]

26 minutes ago, Dracan said:

Talking about marks, you guys reckon the intent was to make the warcry  models have undivided instead of no mark? This considering the allegiance abilities requires all hero units to have one of the 5 marks? 

 

If this is the passage you all are referring to on Archaon (I don't have my book with me) then that explicitly refers to only one Aura of Chaos if a unit has more than one Mark of Chaos.

[ccconner777]

Anybody have opinions on converting chaos chosen from the new chaos warrior sculpts? I have some weapons from the khorne skullreapers unit that look pretty intense/demon infused and i was thinking just doing a weapon swap and maybe a head swap for the most intricate looking undivided helmets i have on hand. Do you think the dynamic poses and those minor changes will set them apart enough from old chaos warriors to seem like a more elite unit? The alternative is getting some bloodwarrior bodies.

[Cauthon]

52 minutes ago, ccconner777 said:

Anybody have opinions on converting chaos chosen from the new chaos warrior sculpts? I have some weapons from the khorne skullreapers unit that look pretty intense/demon infused and i was thinking just doing a weapon swap and maybe a head swap for the most intricate looking undivided helmets i have on hand. Do you think the dynamic poses and those minor changes will set them apart enough from old chaos warriors to seem like a more elite unit? The alternative is getting some bloodwarrior bodies.

Stick those weapons on chaos space marines! Those will look plenty elite. 

[Midjithero]

2 hours ago, Forrix said:

If this is the passage you all are referring to on Archaon (I don't have my book with me) then that explicitly refers to only one Aura of Chaos if a unit has more than one Mark of Chaos.

Correct!  Archaon would have to choose which aura he produces.  However, it doesn’t say that he then loses his other god mark keywords.  Hence, other heroes of those additional gods would still confer the bonus onto Archaon due to him having the matching keywords. 

[Utforskarn]

28 minutes ago, Midjithero said:

Correct!  Archaon would have to choose which aura he produces.  However, it doesn’t say that he then loses his other god mark keywords.  Hence, other heroes of those additional gods would still confer the bonus onto Archaon due to him having the matching keywords. 

This is what I thought as well when reading the rules. But the wording still makes it feel a bit unclear if it is refering to auras or the mark itself, hence my question. 
I can see some good arguments for both sides, but so far I’m leaning towards your interpretation.  

[Midjithero]

5 hours ago, Utforskarn said:

This is what I thought as well when reading the rules. But the wording still makes it feel a bit unclear if it is refering to auras or the mark itself, hence my question. 
I can see some good arguments for both sides, but so far I’m leaning towards your interpretation.  

Yah, I originally read it as he only got 1 aura and the same god buffs and nothing else...but read a lot of discussions About it coming to the same conclusion that he buffs 1 aura and doesn’t lose his keywords.

i play my first games tomorrow with the new book at a local tourney, so super excited!! 

[MitGas]

7 hours ago, ccconner777 said:

Anybody have opinions on converting chaos chosen from the new chaos warrior sculpts? I have some weapons from the khorne skullreapers unit that look pretty intense/demon infused and i was thinking just doing a weapon swap and maybe a head swap for the most intricate looking undivided helmets i have on hand. Do you think the dynamic poses and those minor changes will set them apart enough from old chaos warriors to seem like a more elite unit? The alternative is getting some bloodwarrior bodies.

Chosen are bigger than Chaos Warriors. Chosen will likely have lots of trims on their armor, the chaos warriors have almost none. I guess eventual Chosen minis will look like a mix between Varanguard and Chaos Warriors in design. Blood Warriors are indeed a good starting point. Varanguard bits (it was easy to get them for a while) are good but even if you convert them, they're HUGE on foot - think Slaughterpriest-sized. That's Chaos Lord material, not Chosen material. Im think using BW as the base will be your best bet here for the time being. Just my thoughts.

 

Edit: Does anyone have some good ideas for a Tzeentch list or as allied units in DoT? Mark of Tzeentch feels like the red-headed stepchild (no offense to redheads, I like em).

Edited December 21, 2019 by MitGas

[kenshin620]

42 minutes ago, MitGas said:

Edit: Does anyone have some good ideas for a Tzeentch list or as allied units in DoT? Mark of Tzeentch feels like the red-headed stepchild (no offense to redheads, I like em).

Well theres the obvious Gaunt Summoner since he can contribute to the Pink/Blue Horror Engine. Chaos Lords can have fun with the Daemonheart.

[Asamu]

11 hours ago, Forrix said:

If this is the passage you all are referring to on Archaon (I don't have my book with me) then that explicitly refers to only one Aura of Chaos if a unit has more than one Mark of Chaos.

8 hours ago, Midjithero said:

Correct!  Archaon would have to choose which aura he produces.  However, it doesn’t say that he then loses his other god mark keywords.  Hence, other heroes of those additional gods would still confer the bonus onto Archaon due to him having the matching keywords. 

Re-read the last part of that.

The sentence that actually clarifies he only gets "one" is referring to the mark of chaos keywords, not the aura of chaos. That's the issue here.

"If you select a unit with more than one mark of chaos keyword... you must pick which one will apply for the duration of the battle." The sentence says nothing regarding the aura of chaos. It only mentions the keywords, and is in a separate paragraph from the rule on auras, which still leaves the rule as each character getting one aura, determined by its "mark of chaos keyword" - clarified as Khorne/Nurgle/Tzeentch/Slaanesh/Undivided. Thus, only one of the 5 relevant keywords is applied to Archaon in battle, regardless of what's actually on his warscroll. You pick one of the keywords, not one of the auras. It's an important distinction in how the rule is worded.

IMO, this needs an Errata, if the intent is as you are saying (in which case, it should say "If you select a unit with more than one mark of chaos keyword to be part of your army, you must pick one aura of chaos ability for it to have"), or an FAQ if it is intended as written.

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by Asamu

[Sinfullyvannila]

2 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

Well theres the obvious Gaunt Summoner since he can contribute to the Pink/Blue Horror Engine. Chaos Lords can have fun with the Daemonheart.

Just going to add out that the splits for the Pinks only work in a DoT army and Gaunt Summoner can work natively in that army(Any CHAOS, TZEENTCH unit can) without needing to ally.

 

You can accrue Blue and Brimstone fate points in any army but only DoT armies can spend Fate Points.

 

But yeah, the one on the disc is basically an autoinclude in DoT lists.

[Smooth criminal]

4 hours ago, MitGas said:

Edit: Does anyone have some good ideas for a Tzeentch list or as allied units in DoT? Mark of Tzeentch feels like the red-headed stepchild (no offense to redheads, I like em).

Gaunt summoners are naturally tzeentch. They are also demons so allied big bird can buff them for CP if you want more consistent casting. And they summon pinks which are also tzeentch caster demons.

Mark of tzeentch gives you a bit of save reroll without the need to pay warrior size tax so you can take more wizards and leave 5-10 warrior units as their screen. Smaller units are also easier for the high unit count Tzeentch battalion.

Basically Tzeentch army can have a very high wizard and cast count. We can abuse that in two ways: the endless spell that counts wizards+cabalists moving it twice or the DoT allegiance giving you summons for your casts. I assume the endless spell route is generally stronger because vomitting out mws is stronger than summoning mediocre units, but it's susceptible to people unbinding the head with auto scroll.

A list I'd try to test for Tzeentch would be:

Cabalists

2x gaunt summoner

1x sorc

1x manticore lord

---the casty dudes

1x chaos lord - can be a sorc

2x5 marauder horsemen - objective grabs

2x10 warriors - screen

1x shrine - buff

daemonrift

random 20pt endless spell

That's 1 drop.

For sacrifices you can either summon 1 unit of furies or swap 1 unit of warriors for marauders.

In DoT you're probably better off with taking units of casty demons with gaunts, manticore lord and big bird to buff everything and just spam casts.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Smooth criminal

[Oldshrimpeyes]

Having acquired 20 marauders in a trade I'm keen to get them on the field. However, two questions arise:

Is a unit of 20 worth it? And, is there any positive to them having flails? Unfortunately they are pre assembled as such and I can't get rid of them for hand weapon and shield. 

[Asamu]

58 minutes ago, Oldshrimpeyes said:

Having acquired 20 marauders in a trade I'm keen to get them on the field. However, two questions arise:

Is a unit of 20 worth it? And, is there any positive to them having flails? Unfortunately they are pre assembled as such and I can't get rid of them for hand weapon and shield. 

Flails have a 2" reach, so there's some benefit to it, but since the unit isn't required to run full one way or the other, you probably never want a full unit of them.

Chop off the flail bits and make some axe heads and shields out of plastic card or something if they aren't pre-painted.

[Korazell]

I've read through this thread and I'm not sure if anyone else has taken a look at this, but, hear me out. I know we've got a ton of toys to play with, but, I think I have something that is worth considering...

Chickens. 

Now wait! These aren't ordinary chickens! CHAOS Chickens. 

For the min unit of 6 you get, on the charge, 18 3/3 `1 damage attacks. For a little more than a cultist unit. They are fast, too, decently sturdy with the wounds, no save, but they are quick and cheap and if my math-hammer is correct...they out-damage expensive options with a mobile footprint. Unless I'm missing something, and I probably am, I would rather sent these against my foes instead of any cultists and I mean, they work sort of like marauders lite since they don't get buffs. Which isn't bad, really. Means they can fight backline and other things. 

 

Am I nuts or are these oddly good?

[Sinfullyvannila]

1 hour ago, Korazell said:

I've read through this thread and I'm not sure if anyone else has taken a look at this, but, hear me out. I know we've got a ton of toys to play with, but, I think I have something that is worth considering...

Chickens. 

Now wait! These aren't ordinary chickens! CHAOS Chickens. 

For the min unit of 6 you get, on the charge, 18 3/3 `1 damage attacks. For a little more than a cultist unit. They are fast, too, decently sturdy with the wounds, no save, but they are quick and cheap and if my math-hammer is correct...they out-damage expensive options with a mobile footprint. Unless I'm missing something, and I probably am, I would rather sent these against my foes instead of any cultists and I mean, they work sort of like marauders lite since they don't get buffs. Which isn't bad, really. Means they can fight backline and other things. 

 

Am I nuts or are these oddly good?

They don’t benefit from just about any buff or synergy.