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AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion


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15 hours ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

I'd like to make Spire Tyrants work. It's interesting that they have two models that swing at 3 attacks per segment, and the +1 to hit is almost guaranteed with Lagertha flexing at them (which is how I imagine the Warqueen using her command ability and you can't stop me).

I wish we'd gotten a little more from the Warcry warbands. Obviously I didn't expect much but it would have been nice if they'd been less of a non-contender when matched against regular Marauders.

There's no reason to ever take Spire Tyrants unfortunately. If taking more than minimum, marauders put them to shame. If taking minimum units, I think splintered fang will average more damage against most targets and is much more resilient. 

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4 hours ago, Smooth criminal said:

The real question is why shouldn't you take Archaon in every list? (and the answer is being a pain to transport)

Well, competitively, it might make a lot of sense to take him.  Narratively, I don't take any of the gods/demi-gods/goddesses, as it seems ridiculous to me that every one of my 2k games would have that person involved.  That is just my personal preference though and I admit the models are amazing.  That, and I don't want to put almost half of my 2k points into a single model.......just too many eggs in that basket!   Perhaps one day I'll give it a try though!

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So I don't really play the game (read: never actually played AoS) but I like to follow along and collect and paint.  So while it's not a really big deal for me, I'm wondering whether it makes more sense to build, just in case,  that one knight from the new Start Collecting box with the lance or with the flail.  I'm assuming that the lance will be recommended, but wanted your opinions.  Thanks.

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4 hours ago, Utforskarn said:

If I have a chaos sorcerer lord and Archaon in the same list, Archaon with the aura of khorne but the sorcerer with one of the other auras. Can the sorcerers aura still affect Archaon since he has all of the god keywords? 

The sorcerer cannot take mark of khorne so I’m looking at the alternatives. 
Say the sorcerer has slaanesh aura and keeps close enough to Archaon, will Archaon get affected by both his own aura as well as the sorcerers?

I know he cant take more than one aura himself but I cant see anything about him not being able to get the affect from another aura from another hero as long as he have the relevant keyword on his warscroll, which he obviously does. 

Or am I missing something?

The book says:

"If you select a unit with more than one Mark of Chaos keyword to be part of your army, you must pick which one will apply to that unit for the duration of the battle."

I interpreted that as meaning that Archaon can still only choose to be one mark and be affected by one mark. So, in this case, he could not be Khorne and be affected by the aura of a Tzeentch sorcerer.

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6 minutes ago, TALegion said:

The book says:

"If you select a unit with more than one Mark of Chaos keyword to be part of your army, you must pick which one will apply to that unit for the duration of the battle."

I interpreted that as meaning that Archaon can still only choose to be one mark and be affected by one mark. So, in this case, he could not be Khorne and be affected by the aura of a Tzeentch sorcerer.

That is also how I am reading it. You pick a Mark and that is what the unit has access to regardless of whether not it has more than one keyword on the profile. The counter argument is much weaker, clearly not intended and even RAW argument falls short IMO.

Edited by Gibs
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I have a bunch of Ironjawz to paint, so I'm going to have to resists building this list:

Quote

Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness
- Damned Legion: Host of the Everchosen (Sixth Circle)
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Archaon the Everchosen (800)
- General
- Aura of Chaos: Khorne
- Spell: Binding Damnation
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Spell: Mask of Darkness
20 x Chaos Warriors (400)
- Halberd & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
3 x Varanguard (300)
- 2x Ensorcelled Weapons
- 1x Fellspears
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
3 x Varanguard (300)
- 2x Ensorcelled Weapons
- 1x Fellspears
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 95

The idea is pretty clear:
- Utilize Dark Prophecy to guarantee the best turn orders for you
- Double-turn with Archaon and the Khorne Varanguard, destroying nearly anything they charge into with rerollable 2's to hit and wound, +1 damage, and the fight-twice ability (preferably putting the sorcerer's reroll save ability on Archaon, too, to keep him alive)
- Use the mob of warriors to sit on an important objective and tank+blender anything that gets close. Stick the sorcerer with them, too, to give the, the appropriate rerolls throughout the game
 

It's super CP reliant, so I think the Aetherquartz is the best bet for an artefact. Time will tell if this is even close to being viable, but it looks like a fun list (for me) that uses some of the best-looking models in the game.

Edited by TALegion
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45 minutes ago, TALegion said:

I have a bunch of Ironjawz to paint, so I'm going to have to resists building this list:

The idea is pretty clear:
- Utilize Dark Prophecy to guarantee the best turn orders for you
- Double-turn with Archaon and the Khorne Varanguard, destroying nearly anything they charge into with rerollable 2's to hit and wound, +1 damage, and the fight-twice ability (preferably putting the sorcerer's reroll save ability on Archaon, too, to keep him alive)
- Use the mob of warriors to sit on an important objective and tank+blender anything that gets close. Stick the sorcerer with them, too, to give the, the appropriate rerolls throughout the game
 

It's super CP reliant, so I think the Aetherquartz is the best bet for an artefact. Time will tell if this is even close to being viable, but it looks like a fun list (for me) that uses some of the best-looking models in the game.

That’s almost the exact same list I proposed earlier minus the marks/artefacts. It’s pretty brutal provided you can get the alpha strike.

I am actually contemplating swapping the sorcerer for a Chaos Lord as the opportunity to get a double attack on a unit is incredibly strong. The Warriors can get a little isolated so having this extra punch is handy. 

That said the utility of the Sorcerer is incredible so it’s a hard call to make. 
 

swapping armies with my mate this weekend and going to suggest he runs this against me (playing Sylvaneth) 

 

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1 hour ago, TALegion said:

I have a bunch of Ironjawz to paint, so I'm going to have to resists building this list:

The idea is pretty clear:
- Utilize Dark Prophecy to guarantee the best turn orders for you
- Double-turn with Archaon and the Khorne Varanguard, destroying nearly anything they charge into with rerollable 2's to hit and wound, +1 damage, and the fight-twice ability (preferably putting the sorcerer's reroll save ability on Archaon, too, to keep him alive)
- Use the mob of warriors to sit on an important objective and tank+blender anything that gets close. Stick the sorcerer with them, too, to give the, the appropriate rerolls throughout the game
 

It's super CP reliant, so I think the Aetherquartz is the best bet for an artefact. Time will tell if this is even close to being viable, but it looks like a fun list (for me) that uses some of the best-looking models in the game.

I'm planning on trying out a similar list this weekend/next week.  Only difference is I am planning on going 20x marauders, 5x WoC and a Daemon Prince.  Archaon and Varanguard are Mark of Slaanesh because the exploding 6s are fantastic. Demon prince is mark of Khorne for the board control. 

Plan is to take Whispers of Chaos on Archaon and binding Damnation on Sorcerer, combined with the DP i will have pretty solid ability to control what the opponent can do with their units and better allow me to safely pick and choose units to destroy.  

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1 hour ago, TALegion said:

I have a bunch of Ironjawz to paint, so I'm going to have to resists building this list:

The idea is pretty clear:
- Utilize Dark Prophecy to guarantee the best turn orders for you
- Double-turn with Archaon and the Khorne Varanguard, destroying nearly anything they charge into with rerollable 2's to hit and wound, +1 damage, and the fight-twice ability (preferably putting the sorcerer's reroll save ability on Archaon, too, to keep him alive)
- Use the mob of warriors to sit on an important objective and tank+blender anything that gets close. Stick the sorcerer with them, too, to give the, the appropriate rerolls throughout the game
 

It's super CP reliant, so I think the Aetherquartz is the best bet for an artefact. Time will tell if this is even close to being viable, but it looks like a fun list (for me) that uses some of the best-looking models in the game.

As soon as someone has a horde army you will go down.

Varanguard are not made to fight hordes and Chaos warriors have not enough punch.

Sorcerer Lord on Manticore should be autoinclude in every list

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5 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

Sorcerer Lord on Manticore should be autoinclude in every list

Yeah I have a hard time seeing otherwise. Which means an answer to shooting should probably be on every list too; because that thing is gonna get focused down quick.

I think that may actually be a reason to bring Untamed Beasts, since they can at least move forward before the first turn to hopefully block direct movement from shooters.

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Thanks @Asamu @Smooth criminal @Spears and @Kasper that's some really good info. 

If this is anyway affects it I will be running them predominantly in Host of Everchosen, with Archaon, I am thinking 10 knights (already have them) and some mauraders (2x 20 or 1 40 block). Mark wise I like Khorne and Nurgle but I'm flexible. 

I'm asking because I have the kits on my desk but don't want to commit to a subpar combo and I play against alot of different armies with high saved heroes like Alarielle, Verminlords, Mawcrushas etc. 

 

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37 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

As soon as someone has a horde army you will go down.

Varanguard are not made to fight hordes and Chaos warriors have not enough punch.

Sorcerer Lord on Manticore should be autoinclude in every list

From my initially games I tend to disagree a little here as in the Archaon list they do what Varanguard cannot. They come alive at 15 and they thrive in a unit of 20.

Chaos Warriors 

Durable and killy enough (20):

·         Re-roll able 4+ save

·         Immunity to battle shock

.         40 wounds

·         5+ FNP for mortal wounds

·         2 attacks 3+/3+ 1 damage or 4+ to hit and -1 rend

Command abilities

By my will

o Everyone attacks even when killed

Daemonic Power

o Reroll hit and wound rolls

Pick your mark

o   Khorne, +1 to wound if within (18” of Archaon)

o   Nurgle, 6’s to wound deal extra damage

o   Slannesh, 6’s explodes into two attacks

Sometimes I feel we expect to much from a single unit. The fact you must kill these guys down to a man due to battleshock immunity, they re-roll their 4+ saves and you can make them re-roll all attacks and wounds is more than good enough. Sure they are not immortal but those 40 wounds are being used very efficiently and unless the kitchen sink is being thrown at them they are holding the line for at least 2 turns maybe more and they are dishing out wounds. Marauders don't fill the same roll as Chaos Warriors they are more like Varanguard in that they are a missile that causes a mess on impact but don't hold the line for long. In a list with multiple hammers Chaos Warriors don't need to be blenders to be effective.

Edited by Gibs
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38 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

As soon as someone has a horde army you will go down.

Varanguard are not made to fight hordes and Chaos warriors have not enough punch.

Sorcerer Lord on Manticore should be autoinclude in every list

I’m not sure you’re right bout varanguard.... 9 attacks hitting on 2s wounding on 3s (esp rerolling 1s) -2 rend n 3 damage a pop will rinse though most horde units. Not to mention buffs from which ever mark/aura you go for. Then there’s the second pile in if you need it. 

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29 minutes ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

I’m not sure you’re right bout varanguard.... 9 attacks hitting on 2s wounding on 3s (esp rerolling 1s) -2 rend n 3 damage a pop will rinse though most horde units. Not to mention buffs from which ever mark/aura you go for. Then there’s the second pile in if you need it. 

It’s 20.42 damage on 5+. So you’d need the 2nd pile in.

 

A skilled opponent isn’t going to let you get that though.

Edited by Sinfullyvannila
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26 minutes ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

I’m not sure you’re right bout varanguard.... 9 attacks hitting on 2s wounding on 3s (esp rerolling 1s) -2 rend n 3 damage a pop will rinse though most horde units. Not to mention buffs from which ever mark/aura you go for. Then there’s the second pile in if you need it. 

You don't get far with 20 wounds attacking a 80 archer boys horde or 30 reapers ignoring rend

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The only thing that significantly stops Varanguard is high save stuff because they only have rend -1 and things immune to battleshock. 

On the charge, 3 sixth circle knights do an average of 38 wounds (against no save). That's 23.82 against a 4+ save.

So their biggest enemy is mortek guard. With their defensive reroll and a 3+ save, Varanguard only kill 9, and then they're immune to battleshock. 
So for an identical 300pts, 20 Mortek Guard come out on top most of the time.   
Luckily Varanguard can attack twice, so you could in theory kill 18 or be a bit lucky and kill the unit. 
The big caveat is that you really need that charging bonus. If you don't charge, you're stuck there all game. 

Other than OBR, Varanguard should be able to roll through most other units in the game. Making a horde immune to battleshock can slow them down, but with a double pile in, they should be able to kill almost anything that doesn't have an amazing defensive ability.

Here's the data. 
That's fully buffed too. So within range of Archaon, with mark of Khorne. 
Even if you don't double attack, and tied up in combat for a turn due to battleshock immunity... You'll still do like 35 wounds across 2 rounds of combat against 5+ save hordes. So with a bit of luck you could clear a horde before it's your turn again. 


image.png.5e9dd1c2b6d03b9e7faf23ae7a7398ef.png
  
People need to be careful not to underestimate Varanguard. But there are things that shut them down. *cough* Mortek Guard *cough*


 

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6 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

You don't get far with 20 wounds attacking a 80 archer boys horde or 30 reapers ignoring rend

Everything has to have a weakness doesn't it? 

Not sure the most optimal list only takes Varanguard. However, for 300 points and everything they bring they couldn't be a whole lot cheaper for what they are.

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26 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

You don't get far with 20 wounds attacking a 80 archer boys horde or 30 reapers ignoring rend

So as far as I can tell Orruk Arrowboyz are unit size of 30max now.... 
2 wounds 6+ save. So Varanguard kill 18 on the charge.... or 36 of them with the double pile in.  
Even if it's only 18, you'll lose the remaining 12 to battleshock if you don't make them immune.  

30 reapers are a bit tougher, but Varanguard still kill an average of about 15 on the charge (after death saves), so a double pile in should do the trick, and again, battleshock will likely wipe them out if you don't double attack.  Ethereal isn't as big of a deal because varanguard only have Rend -1. 
The rend, makes about 20% difference, so about 4 wounds. 

 

Also, don't forget that 30 Arrowboyz is 360pts and 30 Reapers is 420pts with a horde discount. 
Admittedly we are talking about fully buffed Varanguard with Archaon nearby (or at least a Khorne Marked general) 
Though I did include the 6+ death save for being near a hero for the Reapers. 

Edited by Inquisitorsz
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1 hour ago, Inquisitorsz said:

The only thing that significantly stops Varanguard is high save stuff because they only have rend -1 and things immune to battleshock. 

On the charge, 3 sixth circle knights do an average of 38 wounds (against no save). That's 23.82 against a 4+ save.

So their biggest enemy is mortek guard. With their defensive reroll and a 3+ save, Varanguard only kill 9, and then they're immune to battleshock. 
So for an identical 300pts, 20 Mortek Guard come out on top most of the time.   
Luckily Varanguard can attack twice, so you could in theory kill 18 or be a bit lucky and kill the unit. 
The big caveat is that you really need that charging bonus. If you don't charge, you're stuck there all game. 

Other than OBR, Varanguard should be able to roll through most other units in the game. Making a horde immune to battleshock can slow them down, but with a double pile in, they should be able to kill almost anything that doesn't have an amazing defensive ability.

Here's the data. 
That's fully buffed too. So within range of Archaon, with mark of Khorne. 
Even if you don't double attack, and tied up in combat for a turn due to battleshock immunity... You'll still do like 35 wounds across 2 rounds of combat against 5+ save hordes. So with a bit of luck you could clear a horde before it's your turn again. 


image.png.5e9dd1c2b6d03b9e7faf23ae7a7398ef.png
  
People need to be careful not to underestimate Varanguard. But there are things that shut them down. *cough* Mortek Guard *cough*

Should also be noted that if you warshrine buff them or give them re-rolls to hit/wound from another source, Khorne stops being the best mark, and Slaanesh, a 20% damage increase on a 2+ to hit average, and Nurgle, a 12.5% damage increase average when doing 2 damage/attack on a 3+ to wound, or 25% on a 3+ to wound with 1 damage attacks overtake it, as Khorne is only a 9.375% increase when the unit has full re-rolls to hit and wound from another source.  With just re-roll 1s to hit and wound from Archaon picking a unit to focus in the sub-faction, Khorne remains the best option, assuming they remain wholly within 18" of Archaon, as +1 to wound is marginally better than the extra attacks from Slaanesh in that situation, and is, at worst, equal with the bonus from Nurgle.

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43 minutes ago, Asamu said:

Should also be noted that if you warshrine buff them or give them re-rolls to hit/wound from another source, Khorne stops being the best mark, and Slaanesh, a 20% damage increase on a 2+ to hit average, and Nurgle, a 12.5% damage increase average when doing 2 damage/attack on a 3+ to wound, or 25% on a 3+ to wound with 1 damage attacks overtake it, as Khorne is only a 9.375% increase when the unit has full re-rolls to hit and wound from another source.  With just re-roll 1s to hit and wound from Archaon picking a unit to focus in the sub-faction, Khorne remains the best option, assuming they remain wholly within 18" of Archaon, as +1 to wound is marginally better than the extra attacks from Slaanesh in that situation, and is, at worst, equal with the bonus from Nurgle.

Yeah Slaanesh with Warshrine Favor of Chaos pulls ahead a little bit, Nurgle and Khorne are pretty event. 
But having archaon and a warshrine and 1 unit of  varangaurd in the same list is already 1270pts. 

I might have to redo the stats for when they're not around archaon, but I suspect losing the +1 to hit and the sixth circle buff is going to hurt them too much. 
Perhaps the other marks pull end up being better than khorne, but without the extra damage on the charge, I think they start to loose too much value for 300pts

image.png

 

Here's the stats with no Archaon and thus no 6th circle buff, but with the warshrine flavor of chaos. 
At least now they don't need to be charging....
Also let's not forget that the warshrine buff is a 3+ where as Archaon gives everything automatically. 
And this table still includes the genera's aura for each mark (otherwise it does nothing).... so you still need the general nearby, and the range is possibly reduced to 12" if you don't take the trait.  

image.png.561b37543f1621ec14cf128033ed053f.png

 

I guess you can take Host of the Everchosen, and give Varanguard 6th circle without actually taking Archaon. 

That frees up a lot of points and you can just use another Generals' Aura and the Warshrine to get almost the exact same output as with the big boy. 
But then you're missing out on a fair few allegiance abilities so I'm not sure it's worth it. 
Though having multiple wizards and demon princes  instead of Archaon could make up for it. 

It's just hard to justify Varanguard without all the buffs.... but used as intended they are a unit of freight trains. 

Edited by Inquisitorsz
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Thinking of running the following list in my next game, not completely sold on it and would have loved the 2 warrior blocks being 20 each but points rand out and not much to cut  especially with trying to stick with the plague touched.

What do you guys reckon?

 Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness
- Damned Legion: Despoilers
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Slaves to Darkness Daemon Prince (210)
- General
- Sword
- Trait: Lightning Reflexes
- Artefact: Armour of Tortured Souls
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
Exalted Hero of Chaos (90)
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (260)
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
- Spell: Mask of Darkness
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
- Spell: Binding Damnation
Chaos Lord (110)
- Reaperblade & Daemonbound Steel
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
Harbinger of Decay (160)
- Allies

Battleline
40 x Chaos Marauders (300)
- Flails
15 x Chaos Warriors (300)
- Pair of Hand Weapons
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
5 x Chaos Warriors (100)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle

Behemoths
Chaos Warshrine (170)

Battalions
Plaguetouched Warband (180)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 160 / 400
Wounds: 135

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Hi folks, what would you think of this 1000pt list ? 

 

Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness
- Damned Legion: Host of the Everchosen (Sixth Circle)
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Chaos Lord (110)
- Reaperblade & Daemonbound Steel
- Artefact: Thermalrider Cloak
- Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
- Spell: Mask of Darkness

Battleline
3 x Varanguard (300)
- 3x Ensorcelled Weapons
- Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
3 x Varanguard (300)
- 3x Ensorcelled Weapons
- Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
5 x Chaos Knights (180)
- Ensorcelled Weapons
- Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 56

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D6 attacks 2+ 3+ vs heroes and monsters with 6+ to hit doing d6 MW with sword of judgement. And the ability to fight twice. He has his own 5++ vs mw and then harbinger 5++ vs all wounds so he should also be tougher than one thinks. 

Tldr he is the duelist for blending monsters and heroes.

Cant straight drop him either as the battalion requires 8 units of which he is no 8

Edited by Dracan
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3 minutes ago, Dracan said:

D6 attacks 2+ 3+ vs heroes and monsters with 6+ to hit doing d6 MW with sword of judgement. And the ability to fight twice or even 3 times with CA from lord of chaos. With his own 5++ vs mw and then harbinger 5++ vs all wounds he should also be tougher than one thinks. 

Tldr he is the duelist for blending monsters and heroes.

Hmm, I looked at the d6 and moved on, the variance is too great. That being said if you reliably get him swinging 3d6 times that's an average of 10, with the sword of judgement that exploding on fives against heroes I suppose there's merit.. And it's our cheapest aura bubble..But I think I'd rather give the extra attacks to a large unit most of the time. The variance on one model rolling d6 to generate attacks is going to give you just as many whiffs and hot dice, and an average of 3.5 attacks each round isn't great.

If you want a duelist the Warqueen seems a better option to me. Attacks first, with 6 attacks that's only 1 less than the average 7 of 2d6 and if you have a lord around she'll average 2 attacks more than the exalted. Less armour but 1 more wound and going first as compared with 2 activations gives an offensive sort of defense, although she won't be quite as tanky. And you loose on the aura bubble... Hmm, maybe you're on to something? I dunno, the RNG just makes me very cautious when I look at the exalted.

That said, that one game where a 90 point dude gets 18 attacks that explode into d6 wounds and deletes something quadrupedal his worth would be amazing, if I was your opponent I'd ask you to skip the eye of the gods roll and just place down a daemon prince.

 

 

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