AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[Gibs]

“The Slayer of Kings: This ancient daemonblade thirsts for the souls of champions and warlords.

If the unmodified wound roll for 2 attacks that target the same enemy Hero in the same phase with the Slayer of Kings is 6, that Hero is slain.”

[Freejack02]

12 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

This is not true.

What part of it? Archaon scoring two 6's to wound will definitely kill a target, regardless if it's a monster or mounted or whatever... 

[Eldarain]

Unless they didn't intend it and alter it in the future it does read like any combination of two 6s across any of his attacks during the same phase triggers it.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Eldarain

[haneybird]

The Command abilities from the Chaos Lord and the Keeper of Secrets both specify that they work on units that have attacked once and that they allow you to attack for a second time which means no triple attack for Archaon.

Edited December 19, 2019 by haneybird

[JackStreicher]

18 minutes ago, haneybird said:

The Command abilities from the Chaos Lord and the Keeper of Secrets both specify that they work on units that have attacked once and that they allow you to attack for a second time which means no triple attack for Archaon.

This is a good info. Thx!

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

I'd like to make Spire Tyrants work. It's interesting that they have two models that swing at 3 attacks per segment, and the +1 to hit is almost guaranteed with Lagertha flexing at them (which is how I imagine the Warqueen using her command ability and you can't stop me).

I wish we'd gotten a little more from the Warcry warbands. Obviously I didn't expect much but it would have been nice if they'd been less of a non-contender when matched against regular Marauders.

[Gibs]

Speaking of Archaon can anyone see a reason to take him in anything other than 'Host of the Everchosen'?

 

[Grimrock]

34 minutes ago, Gibs said:

Speaking of Archaon can anyone see a reason to take him in anything other than 'Host of the Everchosen'?

 

As far as I can tell he will still get the keywords from the various legions which is fairly unique for a special character, most of them come with their host keyword already. Everything offers something nice actually. Not sure if it's optimal but still nice. 

His extra command points would be really nice for ravagers since they're so starved. Despoilers can block line of sight to him which is ace, and the free 5 inch move at the beginning of the game pretty much guarantees an alpha strike. Healing would help too. Boosts to cast from the cabalists are always nice and he gets up close and personal more than most wizards so he can use those short range spells. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Grimrock

[Gibs]

57 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

As far as I can tell he will still get the keywords from the various legions which is fairly unique for a special character, most of them come with their host keyword already. Everything offers something nice actually. Not sure if it's optimal but still nice. 

His extra command points would be really nice for ravagers since they're so starved. Despoilers can block line of sight to him which is ace, and the free 5 inch move at the beginning of the game pretty much guarantees an alpha strike. Healing would help too. Boosts to cast from the cabalists are always nice and he gets up close and personal more than most wizards so he can use those short range spells. 

Khorne DP with an Aura restricting movement wold also be nice. Its just hard to build a list!

Maybe....

Despoilers

• Archaon
• Belakor / Generic Daemon Prince
• Daemon Prince (Khorne)
• Chaos Knights x20 (3 or 4 units)

Belakor gives you the option to lock a unit down early to try and survive until you can alpha strike something off the board.  Khorne Daemon Prince makes it very hard for your opponent to alpha strike you. Archaon is getting 2xD3 healing so if you can take out the biggest threat he can grind away pretty well against most other units. Chaos Knights can keep up with the army and are all scoring units.

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Gibs

[kozokus]

7 hours ago, GeneralZero said:

as someone plaid Archaon at 800pts since battletome dropped? Successfully

Yup was impressive. Mostly because of his by my will ability.

 

Btw we tested the demon prince of Nurgle and we can say they clearly didnt test him at all. For 210 points and a CP this was responsible for 3/4 of the dammage the std army was producing. It was so sick even when you try to avoid it the ennemy can just buff a unit and make you eat it.

The std player tryed to go extreme too and buffed a 40 maraudeur unit to teleport it and envelop the ennemy army, resulting in more than a thousand point of destruction before the end of turn 1. Uninteresting.

[TheVenerableBede]

Is there a consensus about which weapon is better on the Daemon Prince?  I'm not a big fan of 4s to hit on heroes so I would normally default to the Axe for reliability; am  I wrong or is it 50/50?

[Kyyn]

2 Questions about Archaon command ability "All-seeing Dominion"

You can use it when your opponent  spends a command point, and if so roll a dice:

if 1: command ability has no effect    >> does it means nothing happens ??, I mean opponent can use the command ability normally and nothing more, right ??

if 2+ you can use "By My Will" for free  >> but does it mean at the end you didn´t spend a command point at all ?? I mean, can you do all this when you have 0 command points ??

[Rors]

4 minutes ago, Kyyn said:

2 Questions about Archaon command ability "All-seeing Dominion"

You can use it when your opponent  spends a command point, and if so roll a dice:

if 1: command ability has no effect    >> does it means nothing happens ??, I mean opponent can use the command ability normally and nothing more, right ??

if 2+ you can use "By My Will" for free  >> but does it mean at the end you didn´t spend a command point at all ?? I mean, can you do all this when you have 0 command points ??

My understanding is on a 1 your opponent gets to use whatever they've activated with the command.

 

Question  two: It costs you a command point to use all seeing Dominion. On a 2+ you can use by my will outside the normal parameters and rules.

 

[Mr_Caterin]

How do you see a list with 6 demon princes?

- Belakor

- 5 demon princes (khorne)

- 3*5 chaos marauder horsemen

- furies

- 2 Slaughterbrute

 

[Kasper]

8 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

This is not true.

Can you elaborate why this is not possible? He has both the mortal and hedonite keyword.

Edit: I missed the "fought once" in the KOS CA. So yeah, you'll have to settle with fight twice, not thrice. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Kasper

[Asamu]

2 hours ago, TheVenerableBede said:

Is there a consensus about which weapon is better on the Daemon Prince?  I'm not a big fan of 4s to hit on heroes so I would normally default to the Axe for reliability; am  I wrong or is it 50/50?

Well, the sword maths out a bit better, especially on the charge with the +1 to hit, which is a larger benefit with the 4+ to hit base than with a 3+ to hit. Ignoring the claw damage:

Vs no save on the charge: ~4 sword vs ~3.33 axe. Off the charge, the sword is at ~3.11 vs ~2.67 for the axe

vs a 5+ save on the charge, the sword averages ~3.56 damage, vs the axe's ~3.33; off the charge, that's ~2.81 sword vs ~2.67 axe.

Vs a 4+ save on the charge, the sword averages ~3.11 damage, vs the axe's ~2.78; off the charge, that's ~2.52 sword vs ~2.22 axe.

Vs a 3+ save: on the charge: ~2.67 sword/2.22 axe; off the charge: ~1.78 axe vs ~2.22 sword.

The sword causes ~1.33 mortal wounds on average; which makes it pretty much even with or better than the axe even against targets with the best saves in the game.

The sword also gets a 2" reach, which can make it a bit easier to reach a priority target.

The sword being the better option seems to remain consistent regardless of which mark the model has or what other buffs they have (aside from maybe extra attacks, which obviously help the axe a bit more, as it has the better hit roll, and the sword makes less wound rolls).

The sword actually starts getting better by comparison, rather than worse, against particularly high saves as the mortal wounds end up out-weighing the additional rend by a larger margin.   As you can see from the above math, the smallest gap seems to be vs a 5+ save, where the sword is only ~6.67%/~5.56% over the axe on/off the charge. Against a 3+ re-rollable save, just the mortal wounds from the sword end up being worth more than the output of the axe.

 

I'm curious how the 6s to hit causing mortal wounds interacts with the Slaanesh bonus.

Does the attack cause

1.) 4 mortal wounds instead of only 2, because it causes an extra hit, 

2.) an extra wound roll,

or 3.) does nothing happen?

I'd lean towards 2, as it seems the most fair, but there's an argument for each one (The attack scores a 6, which generates an additional hit that also counts as having had a 6 for the hit roll, so 4 mortal wounds are caused. There was no roll for the extra hit, so it makes a wound roll as normal. The 6 to hit stops the attack sequence and inflicts 2 mortal wounds, so the extra hit can't roll to wound, as it was part of the same attack).

Edited December 19, 2019 by Asamu

[Blisterfeet]

Do we have any preference when it comes to how to build Varanguard? Does mathammer support one build over another? Mainly looking for then to be another hammer so any weapon combination good against 4+ saves.

 

[Tizianolol]

Guys can archaon use his command ability on himself? If another melee unit kills him, can he spend 1 command point and fight again?

[KoalaSnok]

48 minutes ago, Asamu said:

I'm curious how the 6s to hit causing mortal wounds interacts with the Slaanesh bonus.

Does the attack cause

1.) 4 mortal wounds instead of only 2, because it causes an extra hit, 

2.) an extra wound roll,

or 3.) does nothing happen?

This has been answered before in Slaanesh FAQ, as well as some other places. It generates a normal hit which causes a wound roll as per standard attack sequence. There is no reason to think that the extra generated hit would be a "hit with dice value of 6", its just a "hit".

(Fun fact: The same question recently came up in 40k with the new space marine rules sometimes generating additional hits and other effects on hit rolls of 6, which they at first FAQ'ed INCORRECTLY to get all other bonuses on the extra hit, and then had to REFAQ not to do so in order to be consistent with earlier FAQ's on the issue.)

[Asamu]

1 hour ago, KoalaSnok said:

This has been answered before in Slaanesh FAQ, as well as some other places. It generates a normal hit which causes a wound roll as per standard attack sequence. There is no reason to think that the extra generated hit would be a "hit with dice value of 6", its just a "hit".

(Fun fact: The same question recently came up in 40k with the new space marine rules sometimes generating additional hits and other effects on hit rolls of 6, which they at first FAQ'ed INCORRECTLY to get all other bonuses on the extra hit, and then had to REFAQ not to do so in order to be consistent with earlier FAQ's on the issue.)

Thanks. That seems like the best way to rule it.

1 hour ago, Blisterfeet said:

Do we have any preference when it comes to how to build Varanguard? Does mathammer support one build over another? Mainly looking for then to be another hammer so any weapon combination good against 4+ saves.

With 6th Circle on the charge, Ensorcelled weapons are best unless save values are extremely good (at a 3+ save with no re-rolls, they're equal to 6th circle lances on the charge, and Lances are the best on the charge vs anything better than a 3+; Daemonforged weapons are never the best on the charge with 6th circle, but are better than ensorcelled weapons vs a 3+ re-rollable save).

On the charge with a different circle (or no circle), Lances are better than Ensorcelled weapons because of the rend -2, and sometimes better than Daemonforged weapons (depends on target save values; if saves are high enough, the mortal wounds are better than the rend, and vs a 6+ save, or worse, the extra rend of lances doesn't matter), but off the charge, lances are ~25% worse than ensorcelled weapons at baseline, and their advantage on the charge is minimal unless the target has particularly good saves. 

If you're going 6th circle and really banking on that one round with the charge, lances are the way to go if you're expecting saves of better than 3+ (like from petrifex OBR)

Off the charge, Daemonforged weapons are the best, so they're a good choice for hedging your bets if you don't think you'll get the charge reliably for some reason (like in a list with no screening units, or where you want them to hit back when the screen is killed rather than charging), and if you're not taking 6th circle, are probably the best choice, as the rend advantage from lances, and extra attacks from ensorcelled weapons become less valuable. 

It's worth noting that lances compare relatively better if you're running a Khorne general, and Ensorcelled weapons compare relatively better if running a Nurgle general. Daemonforged weapons get the least benefit from any of the marks (same benefit as ensorcelled off the charge with khorne/Slaanesh though), but perform the best baseline when not charging.

There's actually merit to all 3 choices with Varanguard, and I don't think the choice is as straightforward as always running Ensorcelled weapons with 6th circle, though that probably is correct, especially if you're also running Nurgle.

 

With Knights, things are sort of similar, though the lances are so much worse off the charge than ensorcelled weapons with the worse hit rolls, lower attacks, and no rend that you need to be getting the charge every time they fight for lances to be worth it.

  

1 hour ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys can archaon use his command ability on himself? If another melee unit kills him, can he spend 1 command point and fight again?

He has to use it in the hero phase, so you'd have to be expecting him to die, but yes, he could use it on himself, as he is a S2D unit.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Asamu

[Charleston]

1 hour ago, KoalaSnok said:

(Fun fact: The same question recently came up in 40k with the new space marine rules sometimes generating additional hits and other effects on hit rolls of 6, which they at first FAQ'ed INCORRECTLY to get all other bonuses on the extra hit, and then had to REFAQ not to do so in order to be consistent with earlier FAQ's on the issue.)

Well, it wasn´t FAQ´s incorrectly, if I remember correctly the designers tought about it to be designed this way. The issue was, that some rulelawyers within the community did some weird intepretations to this, like creating endless hits and so on, which caused GW to turn that ruling down.

[Kasper]

3 hours ago, Blisterfeet said:

Do we have any preference when it comes to how to build Varanguard? Does mathammer support one build over another? Mainly looking for then to be another hammer so any weapon combination good against 4+ saves.

 

It is hard to answer your question since it heavily depends on what kind of buffs you expect to give your Varanguard. Are you gonna mark your general with Khorne? Will they likely be in range? Do you care about maximizing the damage on the charge or expect them to be stuck in combat. Etc.

The online tool is super easy to configure, so you're really better off checking the math yourself.

https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/

Edited December 19, 2019 by Kasper

[Spears]

It seems that the right answer is ensorcelled weapons. I've excluded Daemon blades from the below as they are almost always the worst option in a positive scenario.

The below assumes you have Archaon on the field, he has marked your target and you charged with 6th circle damage.  It seems that Khorne is the highest damage mark, Nurgle the worst and Slaanesh in the middle (this doesn't really reflect the potential to roll hot with slaanesh though).

The further you stray from this best case scenario the better the Khorne mark gets. If for some reason you decide not to take 6th circle Fellspears are considerably stronger than ensorcelled on the charge.  So my take away is ensorcelled all the time whilst the mark is a meta call, if you expect much shooting it is probably sensible to take Nurgle.

Edit: After a bit more playing around, the maximum damage is Slaanesh ensorcelled weapons with a sorcerers full reroll spell on.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Spears

[Smooth criminal]

5 hours ago, Blisterfeet said:

Do we have any preference when it comes to how to build Varanguard? Does mathammer support one build over another? Mainly looking for then to be another hammer so any weapon combination good against 4+ saves.

 

Damage circle and ensorcelled weapons is the best combination. Without circle you're better with taking chaos knights. If you still want them without circle then it's demonic weapon.

12 hours ago, Gibs said:

Speaking of Archaon can anyone see a reason to take him in anything other than 'Host of the Everchosen'?

 

He's a CP generator for army starved for CP.

He's a wizard for cabalist shenanigans.

He's a monster for despoilers gimmicks.

The real question is why shouldn't you take Archaon in every list? (and the answer is being a pain to transport)

Edited December 19, 2019 by Smooth criminal

[Utforskarn]

If I have a chaos sorcerer lord and Archaon in the same list, Archaon with the aura of khorne but the sorcerer with one of the other auras. Can the sorcerers aura still affect Archaon since he has all of the god keywords? 

The sorcerer cannot take mark of khorne so I’m looking at the alternatives. 
Say the sorcerer has slaanesh aura and keeps close enough to Archaon, will Archaon get affected by both his own aura as well as the sorcerers?

I know he cant take more than one aura himself but I cant see anything about him not being able to get the affect from another aura from another hero as long as he have the relevant keyword on his warscroll, which he obviously does. 

Or am I missing something?