Everchosen and oft cheating?

[gjnoronh]

5 hours ago, Sleboda said:

I have, unfortunately, witnessed far too many seemingly friendly/good/nice guys at events who seem trustworthy but in fact are putting on an act. I have also known genuinely good people who, under the pressure of competition, felt tempted to fudge things.  Most, not all, resisted.

I think the only fair thing to do, both in order to catch bad actors and to remove pressure and temptation from mostly good people, is to insist on the cup covering solution.  It's simple and removes all doubt. TOs should not be unclear or allow a grey area ("come up with what you think works" or "apply this suggestion"). It should be absolute.

Oddly, it feels like painting rules.  If your event required painted models and and disallows those that are not painted, it should not be up to any player to feel the negativity of having to tell an opponent he can't use his models.  Likewise, a charismatic person should not be afforded to opportunity to, um, 'convince' a sheepish opponent to allow the unpainted stuff on the table.  Keep it 100% on the TO.

Rule: Place the die in a cup.  Place hand over cup. Shake. Slam cup face down on table. Rolling player tips cup up to privately see number. Do not touch with other hand. Put cup back down. Leave it alone.  When the time comes, reveal it. Move on.

Joe I get your desire to have it on the TO's, but it's probably not feasible to have officially specified specific guidelines on documentation for every armies  abusable mechanics.   This may be the one we are thinking about now but there are others potentially many others.  As it stands most players don't read the pack - even very experienced players.

 

That being said I think a cup or a coin flip are very good ways to handle this.

 

Gary 

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by gjnoronh

[Lord Krungharr]

This is the perfect opportunity for GW to hop on board block-chain technology.  The dice roll could be generated digitally within the AoS app by the Archaon player, then logged via block-chain and transmitted to the presumed-they-have-one giant viewing screen at the appropriate time, and announced over the loud-speaker.

[Sleboda]

3 hours ago, gjnoronh said:

As it stands most players don't read the pack - even very experienced players.

 

True. This is why I believe it's important for the TO to have a pre-game announcement covering key rules.

I totally get that there is a big weight on the back of the TO, but, not to sound like an insensitive ******, that's part of what one signs up for when one becomes a TO.

It is incumbent upon them to ensure the games are fairly adjudicated and the rules are followed.

[Indecisive]

roll in a cup/mug/etc, peek inside, cover top if needed
and done, and hope you don't play with ****** that requires extensive observation

I like offbeat stuff like this

 

[gjnoronh]

14 hours ago, Sleboda said:

True. This is why I believe it's important for the TO to have a pre-game announcement covering key rules.

I totally get that there is a big weight on the back of the TO, but, not to sound like an insensitive ******, that's part of what one signs up for when one becomes a TO.

It is incumbent upon them to ensure the games are fairly adjudicated and the rules are followed.

I'm with you on my responsibilities as a TO mostly but with the number of battletomes  with potentially abusable (through slight of hand or honest error) am I going to make a pre event announcement  about each one of them?  "the next 30 minutes will be  our advice on how to avoid accidentally cheating on 30 different potentially abusable rules."  

 

AoS is  a very complicated game system and there are almost endless opportunities for cheating or fudging for a competitive player willing to break the rules.    We've seen folks on this forum say they'd subvert the TO's explicitly stated  rules if they thought they could get away with it to get a better score overall then their opponents.   

Edited December 5, 2019 by gjnoronh

[kore5022]

Is this really such a big issue, this really makes a game sound like more of a chore against you than anything else tbh  

[gjnoronh]

3 minutes ago, kore5022 said:

Is this really such a big issue, this really makes a game sound like more of a chore against you than anything else tbh  

I think it's just worrying about the possibility  rare player willing to cheat.  I know at least one of the players worrying in this thread (Sleboda) and I can tell you he gives great games and  is a  pleasure to play against.  

Fundamentally it's a game system that competitively  can be easily subverted (loaded dice, mis sized rulers, nudging models forward when your opponent isn't looking, slight of hands on this dice roll, mis counting objective points, 'misremembering' complicated rules,  purposefully forgetting which units do not benefit from a battalion specific bonus etc.)   

It's a game - we should all be having fun with it.  Despite the name it's really not War with life and death on the line.  

[Sleboda]

1 hour ago, gjnoronh said:

am I going to make a pre event announcement  about each one of them?  "the next 30 minutes will be  our advice on how to avoid accidentally cheating on 30 different potentially abusable rules."  

Nah, but some things stand out more than others.

I can't think of a single other example in AoS where a player is allowed (instructed!) to keep information secret like this. It seems to be a unique opportunity for abuse, and in a tournament people are at their worst.

[Groomy]

1 minute ago, Sleboda said:

and in a tournament people are at their worst.

Is it really that bad? 

[JPjr]

55 minutes ago, Groomy said:

Is it really that bad? 

you know the Mos Eisley cantina, yeah? picture that but with less deodorant and social skills in evidence*

 

 

 

 

 

* caveat, I've never actually been to a tournament & I imagine bar one or two total rotters most people who attend them are actually lovely

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2019 by JPjr

[Sleboda]

1 hour ago, Groomy said:

Is it really that bad? 

Generally speaking, yeah. 

Don't get me wrong. There are many, many great people at tournaments. Most of them would not cheat. Most. 

That said, the fires of competition can have a strongly negative effect on people, especially when prizes (products or cash) are on the line. If you think you might be able to walk away with significant winnings, the temptation to cheat goes way up.

Then there are the people who may be awkward, or who don't win often, or who just plain don't think of cheating as a bad thing.  Various mindsets can influence the chances someone will cheat.

Heck, in various American (and other?) sports there's an adage "If you're not cheating, you're not trying." So, it's ingrained in our competitive culture here.

I love tournaments. I'm just a realist and expect there to be cheating.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Sleboda

[TheCovenLord]

1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

Nah, but some things stand out more than others.

I can't think of a single other example in AoS where a player is allowed (instructed!) to keep information secret like this. It seems to be a unique opportunity for abuse, and in a tournament people are at their worst.

Deployment for Assassins? Fanatics? There are units that DO have secret deployment that is not outlined exactly in your list (as you choose which unit they are hidden inside during deployment) and are relied upon to not be fudged by being written down (although nothing stops the player from just having multiple papers in his pocket with every variation of his units written down).

There will always be room to fudge rules in warhammer just due to the way they are written (we all know GW isn't exactly running a tight ship rules-wise.) you just have to trust that your opponent is not a complete degenerate who cheats at plastic soldiers. 

The dice with a cup over top seems to be a very easy solution with slim chances of cheating.

[Groomy]

1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

Generally speaking, yeah. 

Don't get me wrong. There are many, many great people at tournaments. Most of them would not cheat. Most. 

That said, the fires of competition can have a strongly negative effect on people, especially when prizes (products or cash) are on the line. If you think you might be able to walk away with significant winnings, the temptation to cheat goes way up.

Then there are the people who may be awkward, or who don't win often, or who just plain don't think of cheating as a bad thing.  Various mindsets can influence the chances someone will cheat.

Heck, in various American (and other?) sports there's an adage "If you're not cheating, you're not trying." So, it's ingrained in our competitive culture here.

I love tournaments. I'm just a realist and expect there to be cheating.

I have this less-than-a-dream-more-than-a-simple-wish to visit a large event like that but I was naive thinking I’d meet a billion new friends and have a blast playing cool games for a day or two. Even our local (small) group is visibly affected when minor prizes are on the line. And not in a good way. I hate to think what’s happening when something significant is being played for. 

[Forrix]

Might be off topic but this is why I dislike large prize pools. Generally, I don't care enough about wining to go to lengths to make sure my opponent isn't cheating. That said, the top table last game is often a competition between 1st and 4th or 5th place due to scoring. And in the highest prize pool tournament I've been to the 1st place prize was $400 in store credit and the 4th and 5th place prize was $0.  So if I lost that game (and effectively $400) because I thought my opponent was cheating (or just misplaying) I'd be extremely upset instead of just rolling my eyes. Fortunately, I'm almost never anywhere near the top tables :P. 

[gjnoronh]

21 hours ago, JPjr said:

you know the Mos Eisley cantina, yeah? picture that but with less deodorant and social skills in evidence*

 

* caveat, I've never actually been to a tournament & I imagine bar one or two total rotters most people who attend them are actually lovely

 

 

20 hours ago, Forrix said:

Might be off topic but this is why I dislike large prize pools. Generally, I don't care enough about wining to go to lengths to make sure my opponent isn't cheating. That said, the top table last game is often a competition between 1st and 4th or 5th place due to scoring. And in the highest prize pool tournament I've been to the 1st place prize was $400 in store credit and the 4th and 5th place prize was $0.  So if I lost that game (and effectively $400) because I thought my opponent was cheating (or just misplaying) I'd be extremely upset instead of just rolling my eyes. Fortunately, I'm almost never anywhere near the top tables :P. 

 

22 hours ago, Groomy said:

Is it really that bad? 

 

  I run what is as far as I know   the largest AoS tournament east of Adepticon and north of NOVA in the US.  That's been the case throughout the AoS era.  We had 72 registered and roughly 69 play this year.   I've been active on the Warhammer tournament scene prior to AoS regional and nationally for about 25 years.   

 We had roughly 340 games of AoS played at Da Boyz this year in the singles event alone.  We had two games where the TO staff or a player voiced a concern about possible sportsmanship issues.  In neither case did  the player who might be a victim of poor behavior from the opposite side of the table think it was a significant issue.   Now it's possible someone  had a worrisome game and didn't tell us but we haven't heard it from them and we specifically ask them about each opponent after each game in writing.   That ratio is pretty stable throughout the five years I've been the head TO for Da Boyz.   Once I've had a serious complaint about behavior. Just once.  

Tournaments are generally great experiences in AoS  (and in WFB before it.)  Tournament players are   mostly there for fun times  meeting new people and challenging themselves.    Tournaments means you meet new people - that is usually a great thing, but rarely a bad thing.  I don't think the likelihood of getting a bad game is any higher then a random pick up match with a new opponent at your local store.  You kind of know whom to avoid in your local gaming store, you may not have that information or choice in a tournament situation.    There are almost certainly people out there  willing to cheat at AoS but those players would probably be willing to cheat when you play them in a random store game as well.     It's worth noting  participant behavior may be effected positively in a tournament by the presence of disincentives for bad behavior like a code of conduct and/or formal sports scoring.  That's not available in a pick up game at your local  store.  That's a reason I try to make it a significant component of scoring for the overall  winner at Da Boyz.   Not all events use a sports score - not all TO's or players believe in it. But I think it encourages good behavior,  

 Most of my thoughts above are based on the experience of the majority of players at the GT level of play where most people have already worked out their angst about "being the best toy soldier player EVER!"   Maybe it's different at the local store level but not as far as I can recall for  many years or certainly in my better recalled experience in the last few years.    I recognize that at the highest tables in a big event the angst might be higher.  It's still the case most folks even at the top tables are there to have fun .  Have I had tense games on a top table in round five  where I think my opponent was being less kind then I would be -  yes but pretty rarely.  Have I had games where I thought my opponent was cheating -  really in all these years of play I can't recall a single time.   (Maybe I've forgotten something but I really don't recall it and I've played a lot of games of a lot of systems!) 

 I'm in agreement however with Forrix that large prize cash prize pools  seem to bring out worse behavior in  competitive game systems.   

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by gjnoronh

[Groomy]

15 minutes ago, gjnoronh said:

 

 

 

  I run what is as far as I know   the largest AoS tournament east of Adepticon and north of NOVA in the US.  That's been the case throughout the AoS era.  We had 72 registered and roughly 69 play this year.   I've been active on the Warhammer tournament scene prior to AoS regional and nationally for about 25 years.   

Tournaments are generally great experiences in AoS  (and in WFB before it.)  Tournament players are   mostly there for fun times  meeting new people and challenging themselves.    I don't think the likelihood of getting a bad game is any higher then a random pick up match with a new opponent at your local store.  Tournaments means you meet new people - that is usually a great thing, but rarely a bad thing.  You kind of know whom to avoid in your local gaming store, you may not have that information or choice in a tournament situation.    There are almost certainly people willing to cheat at AoS but those players would probably be willing to cheat when you play them in a random store game as well.     It's worth noting  participant behavior may be effected positively in a tournament by the presence of disincentives for bad behavior like a code of conduct and/or formal sports scoring.  That's not available in a pick up game at your local  store. 

 Most of my thoughts above are based on the experience of the majority of players I recognize that at the highest tables in a big event the angst might be higher.  But it's still the case most folks even at the top tables are there to have fun.  Have I had tense games where I think my opponent was being less sporting then I would be yes but pretty rarely.  Have I had games where I thought my opponent was cheating - possibly but really in all these years of play I can't recall a single time.   

 I'm in agreement however with Forrix that large prize cash prize pools  seem to bring out worse behavior in  competitive game systems.   

 

 We had roughly 340 games of AoS played at Da Boyz this year in the singles event alone.  We had two games where the TO staff or a player voiced a concern about possible sportsmanship issues.  In neither case did  the player who might be a victim of poor behavior from the opposite side of the table think it was a significant issue.   Now it's possible someone  had a worrisome game and didn't tell us but we haven't heard much.

 

Nice to meet you! Will keep my eyes open for your events the next time I'll be stateside. Now I just need to Google where Nova and Adepticon are being held and shove a few pins into a map

[Galas]

In Spain all prices are random at the end of the tournament. Of course the first, second, and third place normally receive a trophy. But is that, just a trophy. Tournaments don't give cash, they give boxes of  models, gaming add-ons, paints , etc... but as I said, they are given randomly to all attendants to the tournament.

 

You can't imagine how that affects the attitude people has in big tournaments. In a possitive way. I have friends that this year have gone to a 444 person tournament (For 40k, Talavera, 74 teams), and there was 0 problems in the tournament. 

[gjnoronh]

32 minutes ago, Groomy said:

Nice to meet you! Will keep my eyes open for your events the next time I'll be stateside. Now I just need to Google where Nova and Adepticon are being held and shove a few pins into a map

I only run one large scale AoS event a year and one large Blood Bowl event a year.   Irun some smaller 10 person or so events every now and then.     

Running Da Boyz (I run background administration for all the systems) is more then enough work we had 270 total registrations this year.    If you are travelling to the US for an event go to one of the big three however NOVA, Adepticon LVO as those are premier destination experiences.     

But in case anyone is looking for a NE USA event dates for next year are set

http://www.daboyzgt.com/

 

Edited December 5, 2019 by gjnoronh

[Sleboda]

9 hours ago, TheCovenLord said:

The dice with a cup over top seems to be a very easy solution with slim chances of cheating.

I agree. I'm just saying that tournaments should spell that out as the solution and not leave it up to individual players to decide.

[Sleboda]

8 hours ago, Groomy said:

I have this less-than-a-dream-more-than-a-simple-wish to visit a large event like that but I was naive thinking I’d meet a billion new friends and have a blast playing cool games for a day or two. Even our local (small) group is visibly affected when minor prizes are on the line. And not in a good way. I hate to think what’s happening when something significant is being played for. 

Don't let my experiences (in over 25 years of attending and judging at tournaments) discourage you!

 

Yes, you will meet some cheating so-and-sos, but you'll also have great fun and make new friends.

[Sleboda]

4 hours ago, gjnoronh said:

But in case anyone is looking for a NE USA event dates for next year are set

http://www.daboyzgt.com/

Woot!!! We will endeavour to return!

BTW, response incoming to your other reply.  Brace yourself.

[gjnoronh]

Note I think Sleboda I'm not trying to discount your worries in general.  I was thinking last night I did earlier in this thread actually point out that at least 1-2 people on this forum have said they would lie to the TO about what happened on the tabletop if they thought it would give them a leg up against their opponents.  But internet edge cases aside I think intentional cheating is quite rare - or at least should be.    I am also aware of cases where cheaters have been caught at large scale events - but with lots and lots of personal games at high level competitive play  I have never seen it.   I've got best general and overall awards at multiple 30+ player events and have finished top 5 as well multiple times over the years.  

I'm  a strong believer in "community is the important thing, prizes aren't why we are  really here. "   That reflects my world view and ideas about  what adults playing with toy soldiers  should be about.   And what seems to be the path people who have long term successful careers in this gaming system have taken.   The folks who are hyperfocused on winning at all costs tend not to have a long career in the hobby.  

I'm also very much a pragmatist - it's really hard to delineate and specifically prescribe extra rules about all the ways people can be a ****** and cheat at Warhammer.   

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by gjnoronh

[Forrix]

Yeah, in my experience I know of 1 player that I strongly suspect of cheating in games before and he took some flack and has faded away from the scene. 

I have had several negative play experiences due to people getting rules wrong but to varying degrees I think those were legitimate mistakes. 

In general though, I like laid back tournaments and large prize pools (specifically when concentrated in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place) I feel disrupts that. I also dont like it when tournament entry fees are raised to support these prize pools as being a less competitive player I'm basically just paying to give money to other players.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Forrix

[amysrevenge]

Closest I ever saw was one kid who misread his rules really badly, at a tiny one-day event with a bunch of very casual AoS players so nobody spotted it until the 3rd game (I was his 3rd opponent and spotted it right away) and he was devastated when we figured out what he was doing wrong, and demanded to forfeit the earlier games that he had played.

[AccendantEvincar]

Its a competitive enviroment, look at other competitive enviroments that have strict rules etc, its not hard to put the role of the dice into this, use a cup, take a pic like others have suggested, dont really see why its a problem, some people will always try to cheat etc like in all games, sometimes ppl push the boundries... seems a non issue tbf