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Dolomyte

Everchosen and oft cheating?

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So here’s my question. How do you plan to run this at competitive tournaments?

there are a ton of great players who I would totally trust to roll a die without me seeing and either write down the result or move the die somewhere and put a cup over it or something. There are a few players who I would outright refuse to let use this ability without me seeing the roll. 

assuming it does not get FAQ’d into an entirely different ability I think the best solution is for a TO to come over and witness the roll, but that could in theory add a ton of work for the TO if 12 players have Archaon.

what are you guys thinking?

sub-note it definitely needs to be FAQd for mirror matches

sub-sub-note I like the flavor of the ability and the concept of it.  I just dont like any element of a game that requires you to have absolute faith in your opponent, same reason I refuse to use the behind the back ability of nagash, just roll a die on a 1 to 3 lives 4 to 6 dead. 

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Everchosen player rolls dice with Yahtzee cup, peeks, but leaves the cup on top of the dice.  Then, at the start of the next battle round the cup is removed revealing the roll.

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don't see a problem with this ability really, just roll and stick a cup over it. job done.

if you really don't trust them or they don't trust you they can always watch you roll but from a distance so they don't see the result and again you stick a plastic cup over it.

worst case scenario if here's some kind of total catastrophic breakdown in trust and you still for some reason want to spend several hours in the other person's company just grab someone, a TO or just a spectator or player on next table to watch them roll and stick a cup over it. Only takes a second.

all in all I think it's a nice thematic ability.

my hope is that they do something similar but even more out there for the Tzeentch tome, I can imagine an ability where you could roll your priority dice for every turn right at the start of the game, so you know what your results will be and can plan accordingly

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Locally for me the only player who has Archaon I would trust with this, so I don’t have a personal issue. But for pick up/ competitive games putting a cup over it seems to be the best bet. 

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19 minutes ago, JPjr said:

my hope is that they do something similar but even more out there for the Tzeentch tome, I can imagine an ability where you could roll your priority dice for every turn right at the start of the game, so you know what your results will be and can plan accordingly

One of the guys in our group rages because of the destiny dice already (in his defense, he had to endure some really lucky rolls from me even before the DD came into play), this would definitely give him a heartattack. 

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I think I'd ask the table over to just give a glance to the roll and then have it stored under a cup of some sort. That said I'd definitely played a few folks who'd I'd be concerned about this rule with. 

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It's a shame but I'm going to have to insist on a "no-professional magicians or pickpockets" rule at my table.

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2 minutes ago, Dreadmund said:

It's a shame but I'm going to have to insist on a "no-professional magicians or pickpockets" rule at my table.

They are such great smack talkers though. “Watch this card, I’m going to make it, like your army, disappear!”

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If they are going second is there any reason they wouldn't just make the roll in the open?

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3 minutes ago, Khron said:

If they are going second is there any reason they wouldn't just make the roll in the open?

No, it only matters if they are going first really. 

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I was thinking you could take a picture of it along with one of their models and fingers for turn number. Guarantees the picture isn't from a different game. 

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1 hour ago, Nacnudllah said:

Everchosen player rolls dice with Yahtzee cup, peeks, but leaves the cup on top of the dice.  Then, at the start of the next battle round the cup is removed revealing the roll.

This is exactly what I imagined. I already use one for all my rolls due to stinky dice from slightly sweaty hands/generally more comfy to stuff dice into the cup then shake.

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With any game there is a level of trust you have to have in your opponent to play by the rules. If they are going to cheat they will cheat, an "easy to cheat" rule doesn't make them more nor less likely to cheat, its just a vector they will use to cheat with. Similarly an honest player won't turn into a cheat just because a rule could be abused. 

 

So chances are your regular players who don't cheat, won't start with this. 

 

For adding a layer of security to this (for events and the like where you might not know your opponent) then I'd say the simplest method is:

1) Have the player roll on a neighbouring table at the event and record the dice roll on a bit of paper. The players on that other table can view the dice roll and ensure that the correct number is written on the bit of paper.

2) The player then returns to their own table (this is likely just meaning they turn around) and can reveal the result on the slip of paper at that appropriate time. 

 

Another option is, as noted, to use a dice cup (or any cup).

1) Roll the dice in a cup and peek under it to check the result

2) When the dice is to be revealed simply remove the cup to show the dice. 

 

Either approach is low tech; simple and uses what should easily be present for a casual game between two players or an event. Neither requires a judge or TO or other official to be present and the second method doesn't even require another person there to check the result. 

 

 

Again remember just because you can see potential to cheat with a rule doesn't mean people will. In nearly all tabletop wargames there's scope to cheat and we have to give some level of trust in our opponents to not cheat. The VAST majority won't cheat. Many might make mistakes or use sloppy methods/bad habits, but only a very small number will actually go into the game with the intent of cheating. 

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1 hour ago, JPjr said:

don't see a problem with this ability really, just roll and stick a cup over it. job done.

This is obviously just a ploy for GW to get in on that sweet, sweet fancy dice cup market. Faction specific terrain was just the beginning!

🤣

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3 minutes ago, relic456 said:

This is obviously just a ploy for GW to get in on that sweet, sweet fancy dice cup market. Faction specific terrain was just the beginning!

🤣

I would kill for an Ogor cooking pot dice cup 😄

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Beastclaw Ice Cup

Skaven Mice Cup

Nighthaunt Scythe Cup

Slaanesh Vice Cup

...

Ok, I’ll see myself out. 😅

Edited by Beastmaster
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I have a feeling this is going to cause more issues for Archaon players who find the dice has been knocked between their initial roll and revealing it to their opponent.

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I have, unfortunately, witnessed far too many seemingly friendly/good/nice guys at events who seem trustworthy but in fact are putting on an act. I have also known genuinely good people who, under the pressure of competition, felt tempted to fudge things.  Most, not all, resisted.

I think the only fair thing to do, both in order to catch bad actors and to remove pressure and temptation from mostly good people, is to insist on the cup covering solution.  It's simple and removes all doubt. TOs should not be unclear or allow a grey area ("come up with what you think works" or "apply this suggestion"). It should be absolute.

Oddly, it feels like painting rules.  If your event required painted models and and disallows those that are not painted, it should not be up to any player to feel the negativity of having to tell an opponent he can't use his models.  Likewise, a charismatic person should not be afforded to opportunity to, um, 'convince' a sheepish opponent to allow the unpainted stuff on the table.  Keep it 100% on the TO.

Rule: Place the die in a cup.  Place hand over cup. Shake. Slam cup face down on table. Rolling player tips cup up to privately see number. Do not touch with other hand. Put cup back down. Leave it alone.  When the time comes, reveal it. Move on.

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10 minutes ago, Spears said:

 

I have a feeling this is going to cause more issues for Archaon players who find the dice has been knocked between their initial roll and revealing it to their opponent.

 

Well as it’s just a 1/2 option here’s a super quick & easy fix for that...

103C0FBC-AA1C-4B92-9F9C-BDE111EECB25.jpeg

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I had thought of the same thing, selling your opponent on a coin flip rather than a dice might be a bit of a pain. I know it shouldn't be a problem.

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It is a 50/50 situation, so you could use 2 playing cards to represent each player (like king of hearts and king of spades), shuffle them and put them face down. Your opponent chooses a card and looks at it, then places it face down again, discard the other card. 

Edited by Scurvydog

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7 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

It is a 50/50 situation, so you could use 2 playing cards to represent each player (like king of hearts and king of spades), shuffle them and put them face down. Your opponent chooses a card and looks at it, then places it face down again, discard the other card. 

Or a deck of 25 Chaos and 25 non chaos cards so you can shuffle them, allow your opponent to draw one face down and keep the result for yourself, while you store the other 49 cards away :D

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cards, coins, cups... any more suggestions people as somewhere out there GW's director of merchandise is scrolling through this and barking orders at befuddled graphic designers demanding all of these on his desk ASAP and ready to ship by Xmas.

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Of the ideas presented I like involving the table next door the most, it Makes the game more social which I’m a fan of . 
 

a slaanesh vice cup sounds cool though. Get on that whoever makes merchandise. 

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