How to stop losing

[Maxi99]

What slaughterhouse are you using? I’d suggest trying out blood lords. Ok you don’t get the chance to fight twice with your thirster, but if he’s using the Slann for summoning you don’t need the extra anti magic that reapers will give you and against bravery 10 the extra d3 fleeing is useless.

Compared with blood lords you can throw the halo and slaughterers thirst on your bloodthirster to give it 14” move, rerolling charges and hitting first. That should be enough if there are effective screens to stop it getting shot off the board. Also if there are so many monsters, the reroll wounds of 1 against hero/monster is going to work really well!

Also, invest the buffs on a big blob of letters, 30 within secrator range with killing frenzy from a priest plus locus, plus reroll wounds of 1 against hero/monster is rather formidable! 2 attacks each, 2+ reroll 1s, 3+ reroll 1s, with 6s to hot dealing our mortals.

Heck, you could even invest further in that blob by giving the herald the halo of blood, then he fights first, then go the blood letters, and then it’s normal activations. 

Yet another step further, downgrade the thirster to UF, and give that herald a 6” pile in range... 

Whoops, went off on a tangent there!

[Sleboda]

3 hours ago, Praecautus said:

You currently have 1 thirster. I find with these guys you need to go all in or go home ie get more as they support one another and opens up tyrants of blood battalion which  allows all your thirsters to fight one after the other

Murderhost is another useful battalion to consider and works with your current units. mix in skulltaker to reroll wounds of 1 and a fury thirster for the 6 inch pile in - with murderhost, 6 inch run and 6 inch pile you will get across the board fast. Plus you dictate the combat phase as he can’t pile in 

Not saying that's bad advice, just chiming in FWIW -

I have 3 (4 with skarbrand) bloodthirsters. I use Tyrants and Murderhost.

They don't help against Seraphon.

[Scurvydog]

45 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Come on man, nobody is saying that Seraphon is OP in a competitive environment. Your statistics are 100% irrelevant when this post is about casual games between mates that lack experience and seemingly just put random units into a list and call it a day. Absolutely nothing wrong with this. Armies have significant different power levels depending on what kind of experience the player has controlling them, fighting against them and what units are being fielded. 

It was just to back up with data that the Seraphon player is not just winning all the time because of an insanely overpowered army as a previous poster seemed to think as well. He does have a favorable matchup against khorne, but I pointed that out in my post as well.

This is also why I asked for more information on what kind of list the seraphon player usually ran, including battalions as most of the Seraphon strongest power lies in the battalions currently.

5 hours ago, flemingmma said:

Start winning...

In all honesty I've no idea, but I've found the quickest way people drop the hobby is when they start caring too much either way

While the sentiment here is true, it also needs to be a fun game for everyone, and 1 side getting steamrolled week after week is not that interesting, being apathetic about it does not make for a more fun game in this scenario.

First try to learn as much about your opponent as possible, a lot of people expect to show up with their shinies and just win, without even knowing a single rule from your opponents army, that is simply not how wargaming or any kind of warfare works. 

Try to remember important rules and warscrolls or at least keep the app open and reference them. Use rulers regularly, ideally have your own so you can take some measurements while the opponent moves etc to not slow down the game. If you know where things are and how long threatening range they have, you will do much better.

To do list:

1. Know your opponents army as well as your own. Read the warscrolls (in the app, the book ones are outdated), read the battalions and the GHB19 rules for Seraphon.

2. Measure as much as possible, know when to move as far as possible, know when to stay back, know where to cover ground and deny his teleports, as he needs to be 9" away from any of your units. 

3. Play the objective game. The seraphon will exploit an overly aggressive player who leaves little to no defense on objectives and run in circles around you.

I can't stress enough how important especially point 1 is, you will do miles better when you can recall rules and warscrolls when taking decisions and moveming your models, dont stand 25" away from the bastilladon turn 1, it can move 5 and shoot 20, make sure to at least force him to use a teleport on it for example. Do not give anything for free like that.

[Galas]

I play Khorne Mortals, so I can't help you that much, as others have said, Seraphon counter pretty hard demons but they aren't that tought to beat.

 

I can only chime about Khorne being slow. Goretide Bloodreavers + Bloodstoker can make turn 1 charges without a problem. They move 6"+ 10" run (Automatic 6 for Ever Onwards!+3" for the bloodstoker +1" for horn)+2d6+4" charge. Without more support they are not gonna do any kind of damage, but they surely can put the pressure in your opponent line even before they move.

Normally I have 3 units of 30 Bloodreavers + 3 Bloodstokers+2 Bloodsecrator, so I can lash one of the Bloodsecrators to put the bloodreavers at 3 attacks each in turn 1. Not many people expect bloodreavers to run so much and have so high damage when they are 3 attacks each rerolling all wounds thanks to the bloodstoker.

[Charleston]

Despite the fact that the general talk about the meta dont help anyone about this case, I would suggest we try to focus on how the OP can actually manage to have an impact onto the game.

First of all, all Slann lists are vunerable to their general dying as it mostly kills a lot of summoning potential here. Also, Mortal Wounds are important from my experience, as Seraphon often ignore Rend. Slaughterpriests and the Judgements of Khorne are a usefull thing, as they deny your enemy certain spots, deal Mortals in a quite reliable fashion and can´t be countered. Hexgorger Skulls, an Altar and a Bloodsecrator are together enough to make the enemy hate his own magic quite well. So does your WoK Bloodthirster.  Also, try to deny him as much of the board as possible. Small units that keep their models spread just so he cannot put anything on the board within 9" could really cause him a headache.

Bastilladons are sick units as they don´t die and therefore can stall every single game they are in, and they do horrific damage, especially against Daemons. They pretty much counter all your big hammers, the 30 Bloodletter blobb, the Wrath of Khorne Thirster and the Bloodcrushers. And there is just no real answer to them as they are tough with their 3+/4++ save. Only thing I can imagine is to tie them up so they can´t shoot, but this can be easily countered, too.

All in all, the more I try to write this post in an optimistic fashion, thre more I have the feeling that your army simply has units that are by design weaker against his army. It´s just a bad case of loosing rock-paper-scissors. Some Khorne Mortal Units like Reivers would be a good cheap chaff to keep his charges at bay in the early game. Also Wrathmonger and Skullreaper are essential Khorne units that could help, dishing out tons of damage, even when dying. Yet, telling you to invest 100+$ is no good advice. Althrough, when you already want to convince other to start new armies, maybe just concider a second one to have some diversity. It´s not that he is unbeatable, you and your IJ friend just lack the tools to beat him.

The only general advice I have is the fact, that by teleporting and spreading on the board, you can easier focus your army to remove his units from the game. Against any other army this could allow you to table the opponent around turn 3-4, but as he keeps summoning stuff, this is rather less usefull.

 

[chord]

Play more narrative games, or change it up from straight competitive battles.  

[Tibus367]

I really appreciate all this feed back.  Sounds like a big part part of the problem is the composition of my army, and fixing it to counter these tactics will likely be as expensive as starting over with a new army.  Fortunately I am almost done with my Sylvaneth army so I will get another chance to change the equation there.  Though I do really like the idea of a Murder Host as I can start first and get where I need to be faster.  I might have to try that.

Our Ironjawz friend has it even worse and I can now see why he has struggled even more than I.  As we were building our armies we would play smaller battles with the models we had ready.  He only has 1000 points ready now and a big chunk of that is his Maw-Krusha.  With so few models in the board that has left lots of room for Seraphon to teleport and the small point limit heavily favors the flat summoning rate of the Slann.  His Maw-Krusha seems invincible and wrecks anything it can get to, but it is only one unit.  It can't be everywhere at once.

[readercolin]

52 minutes ago, Tibus367 said:

I really appreciate all this feed back.  Sounds like a big part part of the problem is the composition of my army, and fixing it to counter these tactics will likely be as expensive as starting over with a new army.  Fortunately I am almost done with my Sylvaneth army so I will get another chance to change the equation there.  Though I do really like the idea of a Murder Host as I can start first and get where I need to be faster.  I might have to try that.

Our Ironjawz friend has it even worse and I can now see why he has struggled even more than I.  As we were building our armies we would play smaller battles with the models we had ready.  He only has 1000 points ready now and a big chunk of that is his Maw-Krusha.  With so few models in the board that has left lots of room for Seraphon to teleport and the small point limit heavily favors the flat summoning rate of the Slann.  His Maw-Krusha seems invincible and wrecks anything it can get to, but it is only one unit.  It can't be everywhere at once.

Yeah, if your Ironjawz friend is only at 1000 points, I would recommend coming to a gentlemens agreement to avoid the summoning, or he is just going to have a bad day.  Once Ironjawz gets going, they can do quite a bit of work (I have a friend who plays them and easily crushed my stormcast at 1000 points because if their movement and the fact that they have so many tough bodies).  However, it does mean going with more Boyz or running a bunch of boarz to get those turn 1 charges off and just crush whatever you run into.  Maw-Krusha's are cool... but should probably be reserved for 2000 point games once he has more bodies on the board.

As for Sylvaneth, depending upon how you built your army they will probably do fine.  They have a lot of shenanagins that they can pull off, though you will probably have to spend some time getting used to them and trying to figure out what would work best against the seraphon.  That being said... a 1000 point sylvaneth vs ironjawz game is probably going to be a lot closer for your other friend and might help get him back into the game.

[drkrash]

6 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Not saying that's bad advice, just chiming in FWIW -

I have 3 (4 with skarbrand) bloodthirsters. I use Tyrants and Murderhost.

They don't help against Seraphon.

Funny.  I run 4 w/Skarbrand, Tyrants and no Murderhost.  I've never lost against Seraphon with this list.

I'm just saying it's more than just the lists involved.

To add to the conversation, I second Bloodlords and more 'thirsters.  Prioritize Flesh Hounds over 'letters.  I ditched the Bloodletters, replaced them with reavers that often never leave the backfield, and added 5 Wrathmongers.  (I also don't use a 'secrator because I prefer 2 priests.)

 

[Andrew G]

It's impossible to tell in a game with this many variables why you're consistently losing, but highly doubt it's because of the army match-ups (IJ actually has great tools to deal with Seraphon w/ Smashing and Bashing & Mighty Destroyers for example). I bet that if you were to switch armies before you played, the Seraphon player would probably still win the majority of his games.  I was in a similar situation as your Seraphon friend  with GHB 1 Ironjawz. It really didn't matter what composition I brought, as long as the army wasn't crafted explicitly to be completely, completely horrible; I would win 85% of the time in my small group.

A few people started complaining about IJ so much (usually coupled with how under-powered their army is), that I actually did offer to switch armies with anyone  I played against, which most refused to do for a multitude of reasons. The chief reason being "I want to win with my own army" which I completely empathize with, but I also think there was a sub-conscious motivation to not take me up on the offer because it would demolish the narrative they built about why they were losing. 

You have the right mentality though, and I would just ask the Seraphon player to  narrate his decision making process and co-pilot your army the next few times you play against him. Most good spirited competitive players like to raise the play-level of the people they play with , and would be more than willing to help their buddies if you just let him know the situation. 

[Tibus367]

I should also put some context here that we all started playing at the same time.  The Seraphon playing is not some old experienced player squishing novice noobs.  Perhaps he is really smart, or perhaps I am real dumb.  That is my purpose in the original post to figure out how to be a little smarter in this context.

[MKsmash]

14 minutes ago, Tibus367 said:

I should also put some context here that we all started playing at the same time.  The Seraphon playing is not some old experienced player squishing novice noobs.  Perhaps he is really smart, or perhaps I am real dumb.  That is my purpose in the original post to figure out how to be a little smarter in this context.

This may be the case. I would suggest dropping the demon prince, getting more bloodthirsters, and having a say scenario-wise. Knife to the heart will never go well for you, but 3 places of power could be great for you. Also, you need to go to a higher point battle. 1000 or even 1500 battles won't be good. You need to do 2000 point, as Seraphon will crush you always at low points with their ridiculous summoning.

Make sure you use your Blood Tithe frequently.

Kill his wizards quickly. They are very annoying.

Seraphon are very racist against Chaos. They get bonuses. Stupid Order. Nothin' you can do there.

And as much as I hate to admit it, Khorne is much more powerful right now. Once Seraphon get a new book, which I suspect will be early next year, they'll become more powerful. I wish you luck!

[Andrew G]

4 minutes ago, MKsmash said:

1000 or even 1500 battles won't be good. You need to do 2000 point, as Seraphon will crush you always at low points with their ridiculous summoning.

Also this, summoning is really broken in lower point total games. 

That, and most the suggestions you're going to get here are going to be in context of player's experience in 2k games (i.e everyone telling you to flood the board and run on objectives early is assuming you'll have enough bodies/ board coverage to make that viable).

[Chikout]

Having heard more details, there are a couple of factors contributing to the success of the Seraphon list. 

Summoning lists do proportionally better in lower point games and the teleporting trick does much better against low body count armies. 

Have you considered playing meeting engagements or at least  playing on a smaller sized table? This will alleviate some of the inherent advantages the Seraphon player has. 

If you guys manage to build your armies up to 2000 points in the future you will probably see that pecking order switched. Orruk warclans is arguably the best army in the game right now.

[Tibus367]

Sorry to confuse some of you.  The Ironjawz player maybe stuck at 1000 points but I have 2000+ more and we typically play 2000 point games.  

I tried meeting engagements.  They are fun, particular if you want to only go with 1000 pts.  I had thought that perhaps a smaller board might mitigate some mobility advantages Seraphon have.  I was wrong.  Starting from the back edge had me running to grab an objective while Seraphon would just teleport to their own objectives.  By the time I could beat him back it was mathematically impossible to catch up on victory points.

[Carnelian]

Why don't you play them again, with all of the above tips, and be sure to post both lists and take pics of deployment and turn moves etc and you might get some useful feedback (this will take quite a lot of work on your behalf tho) . 

It's quite difficult to give general feedback on playing the game - but easier to be specific in feedback. That's why there are lots of list changing suggestions because thats eaiser to be specific about. 

Of course, the best way to get that feedback is to just play as many games as possible against as many varied opponents as possible and ask them all for honest feedback/critique yourself throughout the game. Going to a tournament is a great way to do that if you've not got enough players locally

[Lord Krungharr]

10 hours ago, Galas said:

I play Khorne Mortals, so I can't help you that much, as others have said, Seraphon counter pretty hard demons but they aren't that tought to beat.

 

I can only chime about Khorne being slow. Goretide Bloodreavers + Bloodstoker can make turn 1 charges without a problem. They move 6"+ 10" run (Automatic 6 for Ever Onwards!+3" for the bloodstoker +1" for horn)+2d6+4" charge. Without more support they are not gonna do any kind of damage, but they surely can put the pressure in your opponent line even before they move.

Normally I have 3 units of 30 Bloodreavers + 3 Bloodstokers+2 Bloodsecrator, so I can lash one of the Bloodsecrators to put the bloodreavers at 3 attacks each in turn 1. Not many people expect bloodreavers to run so much and have so high damage when they are 3 attacks each rerolling all wounds thanks to the bloodstoker.

Can Goretide Bloodreavers run and charge?!  I didn't think Khorne could do that anymore with anything (more of a Slaanesh and Beasts of Chaos vibe now)?

[Tibus367]

1 hour ago, Carnelian said:

Why don't you play them again, with all of the above tips, and be sure to post both lists and take pics of deployment and turn moves etc and you might get some useful feedback (this will take quite a lot of work on your behalf tho) . 

It's quite difficult to give general feedback on playing the game - but easier to be specific in feedback. That's why there are lots of list changing suggestions because thats eaiser to be specific about. 

Of course, the best way to get that feedback is to just play as many games as possible against as many varied opponents as possible and ask them all for honest feedback/critique yourself throughout the game. Going to a tournament is a great way to do that if you've not got enough players locally

I could write everything down on our next battle and report everything with pictures but I imagine that would be a very large post not everyone would appreciate.  I am also worried having so many details would generate so many contradictory opinions at every stage as to make the feedback impossible to make sense of.  On the other hand what do I have to loose?

Perhaps we can leave the table up for a few days and I can divide each turn into its own post

[Overread]

6 minutes ago, Tibus367 said:

I could write everything down on our next battle and report everything with pictures but I imagine that would be a very large post not everyone would appreciate.  I am also worried having so many details would generate so many contradictory opinions at every stage as to make the feedback impossible to make sense of.  On the other hand what do I have to loose?

Perhaps we can leave the table up for a few days and I can divide each turn into its own post

More information is unlikely to be a problem. If anything a more accurate display and description of the battlefield and the battle might well result in more specific feedback beyond list building advice. Whilst detailed gaming feedback is rarer online (online tends to get REALLY hooked on army lists and almost nothing else - mostly because its easier) ;its not that there isn't good advice out there.

 

You might well be making poor choices or good once and without some outside help its very hard for a new person to work out which chioces are good and which are bad. Especially when a bad or good dice roll can make an choice appear different to what it is. For example you might attack the right unit with the right counter unit; but you might roll really bad dice and your opponent rolls really well; the result being you lose the fight. Whilst you actually made the correct choice the experience might teach you that it was the wrong choice - even though it was a fluke of the dice. The reverse is also very true - getting better than expected results teaching you bad habits. 

[Dolomyte]

One of the best things I did to get better as a player was to start attending two day GTs as just a guest if they were local to me. It’s so great to be able to go watch people running an army similar to yours or one you have trouble with and seeing how people deal with it. Usually you can snag a game or at the very least a pint with someone on Friday night as well. We can type all we want on here but reading can only get you so far, watching I’ve found is a far better teacher. In friendly games now I’ll intentionally do weird or off the cuff things with my list just to see how my opponent uses his army to counter it. 
 

I’m not suggesting you change your list and tactics to cut throat tournament play, but I’ve found for me learning how to play those games makes it easier and more enjoyable for me to play casual ones 

[Praecautus]

Some more general thoughts on Khorne, apologies if you already know or do this. 

Khorne is a relatively complex army of buffs and synergies, correct placement and remembering rules followed by doing them in the right order is really important. While that comes from playing more games you can do a few things to help yourself.

AoSreminders can create a handy cribsheet for your army and artefacts, with actions broken out by phase. Or you can make your own. Either way is good.

I find Having the warscrolls printed out and in front of me in a row. With heros in the order I tend to  use their buffs also helps. 

Tokens as well can be helpful to track effects.

Bear in mind the synergy ranges. For example , the blood secrator range is 18 inch and he only moves 4 inch plus run. This could  slow the front edge of your army down if you need that +1 attack. So you need to consider options eg Gore pilgrims, bloodstoker to whip him, realm artefact to move faster, alternative way to do a similar effect eg second pile in with reapers, placing him more forward and moving him ahead a turn before, castling.

[RuneBrush]

@Tibus367 out of curiosity, what board size are you playing on and how much terrain are you using.?

My first army was Khorne (though mostly mortal) and I always found that although super strong in some areas, they can also be super weak in others.  Despite changes, Blood Tithe doesn't scale very well either and is very dependant upon whole units being killed - the less units on the board, the less tithe is available.  That said, the board set up and the battleplans being used make a massive amount of difference (I'm guessing you are playing battleplans?)

Lastly - how does your Ironjawz friend get on playing against you?

[Zappgrot]

Since i play Khorne a fair bit i think i will put in my two cents.  

I am going to work whit the list you provided.

• Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster
• 6 Bloodcrushers
• 30 Bloodletters
• Bloodsecrator
• 5 Fleshhounds
• Bloodthrone
• Karanak
• Skull Cannon
• Skullmaster
• 2 Slaughterpriests
• Skull Alter

Now important when playing the game is keeping in mind what you want to do. 

Looking at the units you have I see one problem is the lack of bodies.   for 2000 point's its not that much.   While  you have a fair few  hard hitting units like the bloodthirster en the bloodcrushers and the slaugherpriest you lack  enough bodies to screen yourself and then take the objectives.

This is not ideal if you want to play the game by claiming objectives.  By the description of it  that sounds like what the  seraphon player is dooing.   It's going to be hard to beat him at that so i would not try. 

I think you should go whit the true Khorne feel and try to make as many things die as quickly as possible.  While trying to control your part of the board trough the threat of pure murder.

For this I would start every game whit picking out what objectives you are going to want to control and what objectives you are going to ignore.   Lets say there are 3 objectives.  Then just pick the two you want to commit to and ignore the last one completly.  Give it to him you can't stop him annyway.

Place your  throne forward near the objectives you want.  Then place your  Bloodruchers   skullcannon slaugherpriests, bloodsecrator and  bloodthirster near it. These  units are there to do the killing . The rest is there to do the dieing. (split up thoe bloodlettes into 3 units to do this) As in  you use those units to keep his teleporting stuff away from your killing units. So that you can use your killing units to engage yourself. Setting them up to strike first and murder what they are up against,  Between the mortal wounds from the slaughter priests the shot from the cannon and the attacks from the crushers or bloodthirster, most seraphon units should die.   Keep in mind that loseing your screens is not a problem. Activily use them to block movement and space form the seraphon player, Even if that means they get compleetly whiped.) If they die to bad you get a bloodpoint and you can set up your killing units. 

While doing this try to keep your army moeving in a way to threathen his slan. Even if you can not kill him. If he is forced to teleport it at least he does not use it on a other unit that can deal dammage to you. 

Bloodpoints should be used to  either move one of your killing units in position, fight in the hero phase to finish something off, or to summon back more bloodletters to screen or  a bloodthirster if he died during the game. 

The most importent part to keep right is keeping your army in formation. Make it so that what ever part of your other screen he attacks you can hit him back whit you killing units. That way  all he does when teleporting a strong unit towards you is trade it for one of your weaker screens. 

 

[zilberfrid]

2 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

@Tibus367 out of curiosity, what board size are you playing on and how much terrain are you using.?

My first army was Khorne (though mostly mortal) and I always found that although super strong in some areas, they can also be super weak in others.  Despite changes, Blood Tithe doesn't scale very well either and is very dependant upon whole units being killed - the less units on the board, the less tithe is available.  That said, the board set up and the battleplans being used make a massive amount of difference (I'm guessing you are playing battleplans?)

Lastly - how does your Ironjawz friend get on playing against you?

This might be a thing. 1000 points on a large board would be a double boon for Seraphon (more area to deny for teleporting, and few bodies to do so, and speed is more ikportant).

Together with anti chaos tools from the lizards and a frankly unbalanced Ork army, this could be enough to make the games very lopsided.

[whispersofblood]

Question. What is a while now, and what is the scale of loss?