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BaylorCorvette

Will we see an updated LoN Battletome in 2020?

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First off, I realize that Seraphon, KO & Tzeentch need and will likely get an updated battletome next year. However in 2019 we have seen 12 Battletomes (Gitz, FEC, Skaven, Khorne, Fyreslayers, Slaanesh, Sylvaneth, Cities, Orruks, Bonereapers, Mawtribes and Slaves to Darkness), so I assume GW will not stop at 3 Battletomes next year. LoN & Nurgle are kind of AoS 1.5, seeing how some units still have old terminology (lack of "wholly" for some buffs and Nurgle exploding 6's and not unmodified 6's). It would seem likely that an update for those two factions and maybe a few others isn't too unlikely. Would be nice to see LoN get mount traits, updated Battalions, etc.

However, having said all of that, I have also read some posts that think GW may try and phase out LoN, since LoN is more of a soup / grand alliance faction and every other Death faction is fairly specific: FEC, Nighthaunt, Bonereapers, etc. Is it possible they may spin off a specific Battletome for say Soulblight and Deathrattle? What is everyone else's thoughts?

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I don't think LoN will see another update, same with Cities of Sigmar. It feels like a final goodbye Battletome and eventually the older models/units will make room for new ones. Personally I would love a small update to warscrolls/mechanics to update everything to wholly within/unmodified rolls for every pre-2.0 tome.

There may be another new death army in the works for the next couple of years, but I don't see Soulblight/Deathrattle getting a new Battletome or new models.

For now Death feels pretty up to date with 4 main tomes, not bad considering LoN was the only real update in a long time before the NH, FEC and OB happened.

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Really doubt it.  Way too soon, and the current book, while a bit rickety, still mostly holds together.  Maybe a Soulblight book though.

I *do* think we'll see an LoN update in the future, if nothing else then just a cleanup for 3e with maybe a grave sites terrain kit.  But that's all guesswork and wish listing.  For the moment the only real answer is "it isn't currently anywhere on the horizon."

Edited by Sception

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I wouldnt bet on it but I could see GW doing something similar like Pyschic Awakening. Now that almost every Battletome is atleast 2.0-ready, a series of campaign books could be a great way to add new stuff to existing factions. 

This would also be an ideal opportunity to add endless spells/terrain to the books lacking them right now.

So, more of an 2.5 update instead of a 3.0 overhaul. 

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The problem with splitting out the legion is there is almost not enough kits to do proper new books justice and I don't actually think GW wants to bloat the range even further.  Do they really want to end up with 10-20 kits for 7?  8? Death armies.  I really don't think that is sustainable at all.  That leaves them with the problem of either continuing the legion book style (similar to cities) and consolidating or cutting kits but also making the rules a lot weaker, or they try and split it out into more books but I struggle to see how that can happen without a lot of kit bloat.

Rules wise we definitely need a refresh, especially on battalions.  I would prefer to see us get touched after Seraphon, KO and Tzeentch as they need the update far more than we do.

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Considering the damage from General’s Handbook 2019 they might do some point discounts to fix the mess there.  Not that I’m confident.  We are supposed to be investing in our new Bonereapers after all.

Traditionally changes to the FAQ & Designer notes is to fix printing errors/drafts or nerf material loosely based on the tournament scene.   Battletomb:LoN isn’t going to get any AoS 2.0 upgrading there.  GW will pitch something when the Devs realize the full extent of the situation.

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I'd prefer it if I could ally bonereapers with some deathrattle. That way the deathrattle could be done form of vassal kingdom 

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My preferred vision has for a while been:

Flesh Eater Courts:  add a couple units, have some plot development that puts mannfred here in charge of the ghouls as the abhorrant mortarch, witj Nagash gaining reliable control over them through him.  aesthetic for new stuff stays mostly the same but adds a bit more in weaponry and scraps of clothing & armor, share bat units with soulblight and dire wolves with fleshcraft.

Nighthaunt: more or less as is

Soulblight: add some mortal cultists/attendants/blood donors, new plastic vamps & blood knights with a bit more of that mortarchy aesthetic.  Blood fountain terrain, faction rules emphasizing spies, manipulators, assassins   Neferata stays here, mannfred gone.

Fleshcraft Academies: arkhan, deathmages, & deadwalkers rolled together into a new faction themed around experimental necromantic chimeras & undead arcane war engines.  Almost skryresque but sinew and spirit instead of wires & electricity.  Conceptually, the wild innovators of death tasked with inventing novel concepts that can then be ritualized for implementation by the less creative, more systematic undead, and for countering Nagash's more unpredictable foes.  Mechanically Death's version of skaven, big hordes of cheap chaff to tarpit enemy units while weird monsters and bizarre war machines do the actual killing, with necromantic casters & engineers "bravely" leading from the rear.

Deathrattle: in my original vision deathrattle stuck around as the basic defensive forces of the undead, the legions which occupied and held the territory that the others took.  The faction would be expanded with concepts nicked from the tomb kings emphasizing a defensive game - catapults, the existing skeleton sprues recut with larger shields and maybe a ranged option.  Add in a new deathrattle mortarch.  Maybe krell, maybe khalida (I really like the idea of Nagash bring khalida back as a foil/counter to neferata to keep her scheming in check, only to for them to have left their hatred in the old world and become a harley & ivy type duo scheming and troublemaking together).  If not them then maybe someone new.

Legions of Death: nagash, all the mortarchs, and morghasts expanded out into their own faction with smaller, flightless versions of morghasts as the core as a stand alone "deathlords" faction.  This book would also include "legion" rules:

Grand Host of Nagash essentially an alternate ruleset for grand alliance death;  Legion of night: deathlords plus FEC;  Legion of grief: deathlords plus nighthaunt;  etc etc.

 

 

Then came OBS, which in many ways was both the stand alone deathlords/morghasts faction I imagined and the defensive deathrattle faction expanded with ideas nicked from tomb kings that I hoped for, and yet is neither.

Unlike my imagined deathlords, the OBR has exactly zero interaction with other death factions.  No "OBR + X" replacement for the existing "legions of", not even any allies.  To the contrary, their rules seem to be expressly designed to make any intra allegiance integration as difficult as possible.  Further, they're also not an elite force of large base infantry that can look the stormcasts of sigmar or chosen of chaos in the eye as they fight them, but are in fact another small base horde infantry army, more elite than other death armies sure but still grounded in large blocks of 25mm infantry buffed by support characters not far removed from ghouls or zombies or skeletons or chainrasps.

Unlike my hoped for deathrattle expansion, OBR seems to replace rather than supplement the existing line of skeletal warriors and grave guard.  Which is a shame because the plastic skeletons look great already, and if morteks were only half again as large they could have all existed together under the death banner without stepping on each others' toes.  As it is, I'm just not sure I see a place for deathrattle, conceptually or mechanically, going forward at all.

 

Don't get me wrong, as a faction in and of itself I love the OBR.  I love their fluff, I love how they look and how they play (despite my unbroken losing streak stubbornly trying to play them without petrifex or crawlers), they're easily my favorite new faction since AoS's initial release.  But I'm not sure I like what they do to or mean for the larger grand alliance of death as a whole.

Edited by Sception
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You're right about OBR, long term they have be the replacement for traditional Deathrattle. That even makes sense with the lore as surely any raised undead are better broken down and shaped into Ossiarchs.

Basic Skeletons could be considered for Garrison's or emergency numbers requirements but Nagash ultimately, wants to turn the Mortal Realms into the Ossiarch Construct Empire. 

As someone with a bucket full of skellies and grave guard to build it does make me wary of the future. Ultimately I think it does come down to copyright and having unique model ranges, anyone can do a Skeleton, Zombie or Vampire, it's the AoS twist that GW need to keep them fresh.

Legions of Nagash is already incredibly weird by having half of the Nighthaunt included and the three Mortarchs drawing on the same pool of followers (except Arkhan now has an Ossiarch Legion). So it's completely up in the air where they will go.

I like the idea of Mannfred becoming the Mortarch of the FEC. Maybe he could try to betray Nagash and be punished with an incredibly powerful delusion and be tied to the FEC.

I think Vampires will get a faction soon enough, probably dragon based and lead by Neferata (she's gotten a lot of fiction).

Then it leaves... Necromancers, Zombies and other raised undead. I really have no idea.

My current theory is we'll see an eventual LoN book with the Nighthaunt included and a few of the finecast bits dropped. Maybe in time for plastic Blood Knights. Sort of the Nagash/ Arkhan rules etc. But maybe that's more of a stopgap...

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Thankfuly I never got around to rebasing most of my old undead.  When & if this old world game ever comes out, I'll have skittles aplenty for oldhammer and ossiarchs for AoS.

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Yeah that's my line of thinking. Though I also don't want to be sat on models for 3+ years (mine are all grey sprues still) and then have them be the wrong scale etc.

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For the mean time, the Legion rules still exist to play old deathrattle in AoS.  I still think they'll see at least one more revision going into 3rd edition, but even if they don't their rules won't be going anywhere any time soon.  I doubt they'll be rendered unplayable in AoS, certainly not before the new oldhammer is out, whatever form that takes.  Heck, *tomb kings* are still AoS legal, and viable enough that they still occasionally show in tourney results, and they got squatted years ago now.  I'd personally probably keep them to square bases, but as long as you're playing them in a context casual enough not to mind that, there shouldn't be any trouble running Legions of Nagash just as they are for years.  They maybe aren't the most competitive faction these days, but that's such a moving target that getting hung up on it is imo probably not worth the heartache.

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I started LoB half a year ago, got some FEC from the SC boxes I needed for the dragons; thinking about investing into FEC as I'm super-scared that Vamps are squatted or at least ongoing souped like CoS (or Old World only, in the years to come), while FEC are a "real" AoS army with the new lore and models from this year. 

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On 12/9/2019 at 8:51 AM, Sception said:

For the mean time, the Legion rules still exist to play old deathrattle in AoS.  I still think they'll see at least one more revision going into 3rd edition, but even if they don't their rules won't be going anywhere any time soon.  I doubt they'll be rendered unplayable in AoS, certainly not before the new oldhammer is out, whatever form that takes.  Heck, *tomb kings* are still AoS legal, and viable enough that they still occasionally show in tourney results, and they got squatted years ago now.  I'd personally probably keep them to square bases, but as long as you're playing them in a context casual enough not to mind that, there shouldn't be any trouble running Legions of Nagash just as they are for years.  They maybe aren't the most competitive faction these days, but that's such a moving target that getting hung up on it is imo probably not worth the heartache.

Tomb kings have the great benefit of being untouched and clunky enough to be essentially able to contrive up insane ****** that shouldn't work. 

 

I for one am planning on running a 2.5k list that is 6 knights, some chariots, definitely not setra, a prince with sword of 4+ d6 mortals, and 2 bone reaper catapults because I'm running death alligeince. Toss in s standard bearer for 10 wounds returning a turn.

 

Sniping heroes never felt so satisfying.

Edited by Jaxler
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On 12/5/2019 at 3:16 AM, Sception said:

Flesh Eater Courts:  add a couple units, have some plot development that puts mannfred here in charge of the ghouls as the abhorrant mortarch, witj Nagash gaining reliable control over them through him.  aesthetic for new stuff stays mostly the same but adds a bit more in weaponry and scraps of clothing & armor, share bat units with soulblight and dire wolves with fleshcraft.

Heresy! :D

As a FEC player I doubt they would go that route putting Mannfred controlling them. All the nobles in the court know that they only serve the Carrion King.

Having said this I would expect this faction to be fleshed out more in the future. I think some bat chaff and some big ground monster full of pieces of meat (stegadon looking) for support would work well to combine with the army. I agree with using direwolves or something similar, they need creatures, and like you mentioned some scraps or heraldry would do wonders. Finally, of course, the release of the miniature of their "Mortarch", the Carrion King, which would look kinda like Katakros but would be a combat beast.

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I think a LoN revisit would make the individual legions more unique, and restrict what units each can and cannot take (like LoG). Biggest complaint with Legions (like Stormcast), is that many of the warscrolls are practically untouched since 0 edition AoS. This results in several units simply not having a role, or filling the EXACT same role as another unit. So those units go unused.

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It really depends on their ultimate goal for the game, if they don't want an edition shift soon (within 18 months) then I think the chances of another book are pretty good.  If they want a new edition shift then I can see them holding off while they prep for that.


I don't know why people think the soup books are going out the door, the style we had certainly is but I am pretty sure Slaves to Darkness contains a bunch of units in the wider chaos range (or I might be getting confused with the allies matrix for chaos).  People also completely forget about Skaven and I would argue their sub clans are about the same level as our sub legions in terms of rules and also model range.

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20 hours ago, lemonicus said:

Heresy! :D

As a FEC player I doubt they would go that route putting Mannfred controlling them. All the nobles in the court know that they only serve the Carrion King.

Having said this I would expect this faction to be fleshed out more in the future. I think some bat chaff and some big ground monster full of pieces of meat (stegadon looking) for support would work well to combine with the army. I agree with using direwolves or something similar, they need creatures, and like you mentioned some scraps or heraldry would do wonders. Finally, of course, the release of the miniature of their "Mortarch", the Carrion King, which would look kinda like Katakros but would be a combat beast.

Last I heard those FEC nobles aware enough to have coherent loyalties were split between the Carrion King and Nagash, and even then are largely too crazy to tell the difference half the time, not to mention the Carrion King himself is loyal to nagash half the time, and when Nagash is physically present the lot of them are too saturated with death magic and too weak willed to directly resist him to his face regardless, which puts FEC loyalty to Nagash not at 1/2 but rather closer to 7/8, unless it's a situation that matters enough for Nagash to apply his direct attention, in which case it's closer to 8/8.

If they really were an anti-Nagashi faction, they'd be Grand Alliance: Destruction, not Grand Alliance: Death.

Regardless, I know my proposed course for the faction is wildly unlikely, in no small part because it would tick off both a number of FEC players AND a number of Legion of Night and Mannfred leaning Soulblight players.  Still though, the vamps already have a Mortarch, one who gets criminally misused in the fluff in no small part because she has to share the stage with Manfred.   Two soulblight mortarchs is redundant, and Mannfreds creatures of the night / terror tactics style is a better fit for FEC anyway, so yeah, if it were up to me I'd merge Mannfred and the Carrion King into the same character.

Maybe have Mannfred involved in a major seige of an Order city with combined LoN and FEC units, have the seige fail at the last minute because CK shows up and turns the FEC against Mannfred.  Then Nagash gives Manny "one last chance to redeem himself" by capturing CK and bringing him to Nagash, which he does.  Anyway, Nagash rewards Mannfred with a potion that will give him control of the FEC, which turns out to be a poison pill made of the blood & soul of CK,   Mannfred gets the control promised, and Nagash control over FEC through mannfred, but at the cost of mannfred's mind breaking, so that part of the time he's fully aware, part of the time he thinks he's back in oldhammer days as his version of the FEC type delusions, and part of the time he isn't Mannfred at all but rather the Carrion King's personality trying to claw back control over Mannfred's body.  Maybe reflect that in the rules with a die roll at the start of the turn for which personality is in charge, with each having different effects on the army's behavior.

Result gives FEC armies their own mortarch, if not the one they wanted, gives neferata room to breathe in the soulblight, and in general puts the grand alliance into better order.

 

Again, though, that's just what I would do, not at all anything likely to happen.

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Short answer is "unlikely".  I can see where you're coming from but I'm not sure we're going to see a new version of Legions of Nagash come along next year.

My own thoughts is we're going to see at least a couple of new Death battletomes come out in 2020.  Soulblight has been crying out for new models and a proper battletome for ages.  Deathrattle has too, but I've a feeling that Bonereapers could well mean we don't see a skeleton hoard battletome for a bit.

I could see a "Grand Host of Nagash" book that in essence replaces GA Death, so an army that is able to utilise parts of the entire death range but with a better way to play than GA Death (think Cities of Sigmar but more closely coordinated), so lots of specific synergies but with an overarching theme to lists.  I could also see Legions of Nagash become a book that focused on Legions run by Mortarchs - so the existing three, plus Legion of Grief and perhaps a new Legion of Bone for Katakros.

I also think we could well see a new Mortarch next year - something entirely brand new and we've not thought of!

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11 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

Soulblight has been crying out for new models and a proper battletome for ages. 

I would LOVE for a Soulblight battletome! I've done a ton of custom kit bashing for VLoZD's and Blood Knights unfortunatley they just don't seem to be as competitive in today's meta. I'm currently in the process of making a Vampire Khorne army, but a legit Soulblight battletome would be amazing.

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Soulblight BT is the absolute dream.

However they certainly need an AoS "hook" to make them relevant. Even if it's just that they are now the main force of traditional, corpse based Necromancy in the Mortal Realms ala the old Vampire Counts days.

I mean there's already a fantastic base for large differing allegiance abilities with the Bloodlines. FEC is just an example of taking a Vampire Bloodline and tieing it into an entire range (Strigoi!) All you'd need is a new characters for Necrarchs and Blood Dragons with Nef and Manny being Lahmian and Von Carsties.

I do almost wonder if at this point a Soulblight tome, based around Necromancy, would be the next incarnation of LoN. Vampires already make up a large selection of the units and Nagash/ Arkhan/ Morghasts are firmly Bonereapers at this point.

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I'd love to see Soulblight splinter away from Nagash under Mannfred and Neferata. They could do a SC box with a new mounted Vampire Lord, new Blood Knights and Soulblight foot soldiers much like the new Slaves to Darkness SC box. Perhaps some bat monsters and a Nosferatu looking caster hero.

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21 hours ago, KK9T said:

I'd love to see Soulblight splinter away from Nagash under Mannfred and Neferata. They could do a SC box with a new mounted Vampire Lord, new Blood Knights and Soulblight foot soldiers much like the new Slaves to Darkness SC box. Perhaps some bat monsters and a Nosferatu looking caster hero.

That'd be the dream... I'd buy the whole lot in one sec, competitive or not!

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They can try a Free Cities style using Mannfred and Neferata with Flesh-Eaters and other Legions with the others Mortarchs (Grief, Sacrament and Nagash). 

Greetings 

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What do you think, are we going to get some updated in the new campaign book?

I am interested to see what Arkhan and Nagash is doing, now that they are at the head of their new OBR armies. It would be nice to see that for example the vampires have been directed deep into enemy territory to block reinforcements and supplies from Archaon at the allpoints (Legion of night comes to mind) .

Also interested to see what happened to legion of sacrament now, that Arkhan has null myriad.

In relation to the thread title - I can defo see we might get a new book this year - our erratas haven't been updated, they even left the dates (months) untouched. Another thing is that with the mortal realms magazine, the NH part will get a mortis engine at some point - meaning they might revise the warscroll for it to be nighthaunt as well. This can come in the form of a new book perhaps? 

 

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