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Anyone been using Black Ark Corsairs?


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I've been playing Warhammer Total War II and Lokhir Felheart has me eying the scourge privateers. Anyone been running these guys in CoS? Their base warscroll is pretty tame damage wise but scales well with buffs if you give them the extra sword. My main concern being how realistic getting those buffs on them are in practice.

They also seem like they'd be about as good as freeguild guard at the chaff role too in units of 10 basically trading +1 save in melee for +1 move and bravery (compared to sword and board guard).

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I plan on running them for certain lists that do not include dismounted freeguild general. Nice, cheap, and unbuffed better than Freeguild guard. With buffs they get up there. Lot of people hated on them in the beginning days of CoS, but honestly I dont think they are that bad, and unless you are planning of going to tournaments who cares anyway. The cheap stuff is for chaff back line objective camping. Its the expensive hard hitters that are going to be deciding just how powerful your list really is.

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17 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

I tried (thrice now?).

I plainly hate them though I love the models. At 60 pts per 10 or 50pts per 40 they might be ok.... apart from that they‘re just bad, who designs such a Warscroll?

I completely disagree. Black Ark Corsairs with Vicious Blade and Wicked Cutlass are one of the strongest and hardest hitting units in CoS when buffed by the Black Ark Fleetmaster's command ability. A unit of 40 models would have 160 attacks in total (4 per model) and deal 55.83 wounds before saves. Plase note that they benefit twice from the command ability as they have two separate melee weapon profiles.

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and deal 55.83 wounds before saves

Cutlass= 1x.67x.5=.33
Blade= 1x.67x.33=.22

40x.55 = 22 x 2 = 44. 

44 wounds, with the command ability, not 56. and before saves. with rendless weapons. 

So it's a pretty bad unit, but with the command ability it can be properly mediocre. If a bad unit is only okay under certain conditions, then it is a bad unit.  

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19 minutes ago, Mcprowlington said:

and before saves. with rendless weapons. 

They get a lot of mileage from caustic spray, then ; ).

In general, they are not a top unit, that's for sure, but they have some potential utility in every city:

Anvilgard: battalion filler for low drop lists, caustic spray is great for them.

Hammerhal: blood of the twelve + twin stone is a great horde buffing combo, and they're a cheap horde. Plus wings of fire is an extra way to increase their mobility, apart fro mthe standard wildform.

Tempest's Eye: speed, armour boost, and, most importantly, getting +2 attacks each from aura of glory.

Hallowheart: as a horde, they like both warding brand and ignite weapons.

Phoenicium: They're cheap and die easily, while getting some proper mileage from vengeful revenats once their units starty dying.

Living City and Greywater Fastness, admittedly, don't do much for them. But still, cheap horde. 

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1 hour ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:

I completely disagree. Black Ark Corsairs with Vicious Blade and Wicked Cutlass are one of the strongest and hardest hitting units in CoS when buffed by the Black Ark Fleetmaster's command ability. A unit of 40 models would have 160 attacks in total (4 per model) and deal 55.83 wounds before saves. Plase note that they benefit twice from the command ability as they have two separate melee weapon profiles.

How the heck are you going to get 40 to actually be able to attack?

realistically you would have to count 20 Corsairs striking which are exactly as good as 40 Freeguild Guard with spears (2“ range) but those guards Are unbuffed. With the Freeguild General on foot buff they‘d do 22,22 wounds.

corsairs are simply bloated. They should only have two weapon profiles: sword or crossbow. only sword grants +1 attack. In addition an suddenly the while unit would not be as tedious as it is.

Edited by JackStreicher
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48 minutes ago, Mcprowlington said:

Cutlass= 1x.67x.5=.33
Blade= 1x.67x.33=.22

40x.55 = 22 x 2 = 44. 

44 wounds, with the command ability, not 56. and before saves. with rendless weapons. 

So it's a pretty bad unit, but with the command ability it can be properly mediocre. If a bad unit is only okay under certain conditions, then it is a bad unit.  

Still disagree. My formula had an error, but your calculation is also wrong as you ignore the champion. So the correct number is 44.72 (22.36 against save 4+) which is still very strong for the expense of 280 points for the  unit, 60 points for the Fleetmaster and one command point.

For example 40 Freeguild Guard with Halberds and Hold the Line do only 18.98 damage against save 4+.

 

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Cutlass: (40 Corsairs) = 27 wounds before armor (81*0.5*4/6)

vicious blade: 18 wounds

= 44 which results in 22 wounds against 4+
the only issue: 1“ which means you will have at max 20 striking so the resulting dmg is 11. nice waste of a command point.

 

40 FGG with spears and hold the line) deal 11,388 dmg

 

 

Edited by JackStreicher
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5 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Cutlass: (40 Corsairs) = 27 wounds before armor (81*0.5*4/6)

vicious blade: 17,77 wounds

= 44,77 which results in 22,38 wounds against 4+
the only issue: 1“ which means you will have at max 20 striking so the resulting dmg is 11,19. nice waste of a command point.

 

 

1. This depends on situation. You can't say that there will never be more than 20 attacking.

2. This also applies to the mentioned Freeguild Guard. So what's the difference here?

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34 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

How the heck are you going to get 40 to actually be able to attack?

Realistically, you won't. But if you get 20, which is doable very easily, with proper buffs they still do damage and will have to lose 20 wounds before starting to lose effectiveness. And hey, they're cheap. If 20 from 40 fight, no one will cry that his 140 points are just serving as a wound buffer.

Some examples I've just made up ; )

1. aura of glory, at them, re-roll 1's to hit (be it azyros or command point). 4+ save opponent: around 19 wounds go through.  aura is not unit specific, so corsairs aren't even taking those buffs away from anyone else.

2.  aura of glory substituted for caustic spray: 25 wounds.

3. blood of the twelve, twin stone, re-roll 1's to hit, again, around 19 wounds.

 

And so on. Compare it to their typical competition, freeguild guard:

1.  15 halberds, 8 swords.

2.  15 wounds, both halberds and swords.

3.  10 wounds with halberds, 5 with swords?

Of course, guard have few extra things going for them: But you were taking that hurricanum anyway, right? access to hold the line (need to be static) +1 save in melee (swords only), access to rousing battlecry (for their possible +4 to hit if you're into redundancy and +1 to charge. Offset by corsairs being faster anyway).

Compared with corsairs +1 to move, +1 bravery and the cheapest support character around. Oh, and also: freeguild guard attack on 2+ in large enough numbers, so get no benefit from hurricanum. Corsairs, with their 3+, do. Boosting them even further (above examples go up to around 24, 32, 24 wounds, respectively.)

 

Again, I'm not saying corsairs are great, and all those buff sets require both command points, positioning and coordination. But I don't get how anyone can claim that they're bad while simultanously using freeguild guard. Corsairs are sort of a high commit unit: if you just charge them and spend a point at at 'em, yeah, that's a bit of a CP waste. But drop some spell on them, get them into another buffing auras on top of that, and they'll do things impossible for freeguilders.

Edited by dekay
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For example 40 Freeguild Guard with Halberds and Hold the Line do only 18.98 damage against save 4+.

Okay but without a command point the freeguild guard do 15 wounds to that unit and the pirates do 11.

and i think you really aren't putting enough emphasis on the fact that the command point is a resource, that the command ability only lasts one phase (so at most, it will only be available half the time), and that in this equation the entire unit of FOURTY is wholly within 12 inches of the fleetmaster, yet all 40 are also within range to get attacks in. and if ALL of these conditions are met, you're rewarded with...a slightly more efficient than average combat phase.  

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1 minute ago, JackStreicher said:

I also hate that you have to roll two buckets of dice and you get only a few successes out of it.

But that's great, actually. If a bit unweildy. The more dice you roll, more reliable the outcome is and you can do some planning based on that.

Also, there's a strange joy in demoralising your opponent by declaring 'and now my 20 dudes attack 120 times'...

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1 minute ago, dekay said:

But that's great, actually. If a bit unweildy. The more dice you roll, more reliable the outcome is and you can do some planning based on that.

Also, there's a strange joy in demoralising your opponent by declaring 'and now my 20 dudes attack 120 times'...

It drags out the game and demoralizes me since I know that I am wasting time on a crappy unit (worst aelves in the game as matter of fact). 😭🤣

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PSSST. Check Xbow corsairs.

Surprisingly they do well damage wise and no one notices as they have ****** warscroll apparently. ;)

20 pirates drop 40x 4/4/-/1 shooting at 9" for 160 points + ~15x 3/5/-/1 melee if they have to in same turn. Sure they drop 1 hit when on 14 models. But this means something is hitting them and that's what I want while my Longstrikes remove things from safety. ;)

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11 hours ago, Sapca said:

PSSST. Check Xbow corsairs.

Surprisingly they do well damage wise and no one notices as they have ****** warscroll apparently. ;)

20 pirates drop 40x 4/4/-/1 shooting at 9" for 160 points + ~15x 3/5/-/1 melee if they have to in same turn. Sure they drop 1 hit when on 14 models. But this means something is hitting them and that's what I want while my Longstrikes remove things from safety.

They are quite reasonable on smaller units (10 for chaff, 20 if you want that hit bonus) you won't be using command ability at. Loss of extra combat attacks makes it not worth it. If anyone's planning fielding huge number of corsairs, 40 with 2 weapons and 2 x 20 with handbows might be a good option. Or even 2x10 if you're just aiming for requirements of beasthunters battalion.

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The guard is paying for its -1 Rend halberd.

Meanwhile the Corsairs while rendles offer better option when fighting unmodified save roll units like Nighthauts and such, because instead of a useless rend the price factors in a secondary close combat attack.

 

Now I will say this > I agree with the fact that the warscroll should include both the weapon options in a singular build. Meaning you get the lame 9" xbow and the two combat weapons. If that was the case the unit would be much better off, and less people would be on the fence about it.

The hand xbow unit is completely pointless. CoS has so many contenders for your shooters, heck even darkshards are better than corsairs with xbow, at comparable price. And then of course we get to the juicy stuff like Outriders, Shadow Warriors and Sisters of the Watch. And to counter the argument of "more expensive" before it even crops up. sure, but all of these units actually pull their weight and tend to earn double the points via killing stuff than what was their initial cost. All that due to the virtue of them being Specialized for range combat. Corsairs are not, for them the hand xbow is just a gimmick, that did have some use in WFB (as they could have both 2 CCW and the xbow), but didnt translate well into AoS.

There is not even a reason to think about the ranged option. The two melee attacks is all where it is for this unit.

Personally I find the xbow to be too pathetic to even factor in. If it was 12" range which is the basic compulsory charge range, then yes, that would change my opinion on it for the better. But currently as it is setup, I think they should just remove it entirely and add +1 save for the unit. So you would get a pretty good cheap combat battle-line that can take decent amount of punishment but also punch back with good amount of non rending attacks, especially when buffs come into play. But thats just wishful thinking.

We have what we have, could have been better, but could have been worse.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I personally rate them as one of our best units. 

280pts = 20 Black Guard. 41x0.67x.67 = 17.9w on the charge. get attacked back by whats left

280pts = 40 Corsairs. 80x0.5x0.5 = 20w on the charge(ie enemy within charge range). dont get attacked back  (extra ~5w if you decide to charge)

thats up against one of our best melee units in the black guard.  Yes they lose their attacks in enemies turn, but if the enemy is attacking you in their turn its probably a lost cause anyway. I usually dont see BG/Pheonix guard surviving if they are already in combat and the enemy has a turn (they will get swamped)

They also synergize really well with the cities.

Hallowheart, Hammerhal , anvil=  unbreakable 40 bodies

Tempest = 12" range. possible kiting ability.

This unit really excels in the AoS shooting rules vs warhammer (shooting in combat, no multi shot/moving penalties, unbreakable options). They can sit on points and attack from farther away, can be inspired/unbreakable which means they will survive a turn against basically every unit in the game as chaff.  

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Used units of 10 in phoenicium to sit obj/suicide/screen to trigger the city ability...not bad for their price point.

 

Used units of 20-40 in AG and they're largely disappointing even with a fleetmaster nearby.  They will do a surprising amount of damage to a unit hit with vitriolic acid, however.

 

Either way they're cheap enough to justify most of the time.  With the rise in the meta of shooting armies they're more durable than you'd expect for their price point also.

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The elephant in the room with regards to these huge units of Corsairs is painting.

They are great models for knocking out 10 or 20, but Jesus Christ the idea of 100+ kills me. This isn't ghouls, skeletons, daemons, dryads, ungor (etc.) that are predominantly one colour, or Clan Rats, Goblins, Gor (etc.) that have just a flesh/skin/color and one main clothing/armour colour. These models have a sword blade, haft, gloves, boots, leggings, cuisses, cloak (inside and outside), scales, spikes, human-like faces/eyes/hair, breastplates (with decals), leggings, headpieces/helmets and various little trinkets.

Furthermore, as elves, there is a certain expectation for neatness (i.e. unlike "scrappy" units/armies like zombies, Gor or Skaven).

I don't doubt contrast helps, but still so much effort for each 280-point batch.

Edited by Kyriakin
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1 hour ago, Kyriakin said:

The elephant in the room with regards to these huge units of Corsairs is painting.

You are right, but luckily, they can be painted on 'meh ok' level quite easily. Actually, as long as cloaks and heads are good, the rest kind of blends together.

So dark metal/light metal/wash on all the metallic parts, contrast on cloaks (they're very contrast-friendly), a bit of work with faces and hair and honestly, entirety of their remaining clothing can be, say, black contrast on grey base and they look fine.\

True, they are not skeletons or goblins, but they are not all that terrifying to paint.

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