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Turragor

Starcast - The Thread

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Posted (edited)

ok, leaving aside the (justified) negativity about the bad hand that GHB 2020 battleplans dealt to SCE, I think Starcast (with two dragons) is actually better placed to play in those -ofc, if we forget about the issues with how the meta is evolving and (my main issue atm) the loss of artifacts. Sure, the ones where battlelines are relevant/necessary go from bad to incredibly bad, but they are for all present iterations of SCE, however those where leaders and behemots are important really make our dragons shine, or at least faintly glow. Fun fact: in the new Scorched earth the enemy cannot burn your objectives if you have a leader within 6" of those. Considering the base size of the Stadrake, you can keep 2 objectives from being burned by placing him in the middle. [starts whistling "Always look on the bright side of life"]

Edited by Marcvs
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I feel there might be some merit to the chamon artifact. Basically ignoring rend 1 attacks, as a very common, allows for more favorable engagements, a celestant will be nearly impossible to shift unless you got a lot of mw output or rend 2. It also synergies well with the castellant, so you could get more chances to easily heal up lost wounds. 

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Had my first ghb20 game today with a starcast list, celestant on drake, kroak, prime, castellant, 4 concussors and libs. We rolled instead of choosing a realm and got chamon. I had taken the chamon artifact as well on the drake. 

I played a squig list, double mangles and huge boingrot units and 6 rockgut trolls and some chaff and fungoid. Let me say that the chamon artifact was a big deal, the stardrake is immortal to anything but rend 2 or MWs. If you take damage, all you do is use the castellant buff on the drake, and make sure rend 1 stuff or worse hits it to simply heal on 6+ saves, goes to 5 with staunch and funny enough 4+ with the chamon spell... 

The save spell from chamon is massive to starcast stacking saves as is. With kroak on a balewind even better and easier to use. The +1 to hit on charges and until next hero phase was scary and made my concussors outright kill 5 rockgut trolls on the charge. 

Everything just exploded around my guys, losing only 2 units of 5 liberators and tabling my opponent turn 4. Scenario was the new bleeding edge which was actually super fun and one of my favourites now already. 

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9 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

Had my first ghb20 game today with a starcast list, celestant on drake, kroak, prime, castellant, 4 concussors and libs. We rolled instead of choosing a realm and got chamon. I had taken the chamon artifact as well on the drake. 

I played a squig list, double mangles and huge boingrot units and 6 rockgut trolls and some chaff and fungoid. Let me say that the chamon artifact was a big deal, the stardrake is immortal to anything but rend 2 or MWs. If you take damage, all you do is use the castellant buff on the drake, and make sure rend 1 stuff or worse hits it to simply heal on 6+ saves, goes to 5 with staunch and funny enough 4+ with the chamon spell... 

The save spell from chamon is massive to starcast stacking saves as is. With kroak on a balewind even better and easier to use. The +1 to hit on charges and until next hero phase was scary and made my concussors outright kill 5 rockgut trolls on the charge. 

Everything just exploded around my guys, losing only 2 units of 5 liberators and tabling my opponent turn 4. Scenario was the new bleeding edge which was actually super fun and one of my favourites now already. 

That's very interesting, thanks for sharing. The Chamon artifact is indeed interesting, it would also help a lot with rend 1 shooting in t1 when your opponent goes first (so you can't have the lantern up). I'm thinking of Eternal Conflagration in particular. Still very concerned about MWs, particuarly the ones coming out of 6s (HGB, vanari units, 40 buffed skinks...) but it's surely worth a shot

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25 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

That's very interesting, thanks for sharing. The Chamon artifact is indeed interesting, it would also help a lot with rend 1 shooting in t1 when your opponent goes first (so you can't have the lantern up). I'm thinking of Eternal Conflagration in particular. Still very concerned about MWs, particuarly the ones coming out of 6s (HGB, vanari units, 40 buffed skinks...) but it's surely worth a shot

Ethereal stardrake from anvil of apotheosis 😛

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4 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

That's very interesting, thanks for sharing. The Chamon artifact is indeed interesting, it would also help a lot with rend 1 shooting in t1 when your opponent goes first (so you can't have the lantern up). I'm thinking of Eternal Conflagration in particular. Still very concerned about MWs, particuarly the ones coming out of 6s (HGB, vanari units, 40 buffed skinks...) but it's surely worth a shot

That is true, this is as much a problem as before for anything but the drake with ignax, we do not have that now, but unless they can remove all 16 wounds of the dragon with nearly MW on 6s alone, then all you need is the buff from the castellan and get into combat with anything but rend 2 or better and just let them heal you with their hits ;) 

This relies a lot on the castellan of course, but if the opponent wants to dedicate a LOT of firepower getting him down with a 2+ save within staunch range, then I guess he did his job in death and saved others by tanking.

I am not sure this makes up for Ignax, but it does make it much more viable to charge in with the dragon against a great many things in the game, with the castellan buff alone you can still carefree charge into untis with rend 1, which are far far more common, which would be dangerous with ignax or ethereal amulet even, as you will have that sweet 2+ reroll 1 save.

Kroak also like the bleeding edge battleplan, all objectives are relatively close, with 6 all close to the center line of the table, his celestial deliverance will usually have some solid targets.

Some pretty impactful realms as well, at a glance it does not look like much, but chamon is massive with +1 save spell and the command is only used when charging, but it gives +1 to hit until the next hero phase, so for me it was a big deal on 4 concussors! I also see stuff like Shyish where ALL terrain is nullifying, which makes casting spam much more difficult, which can be either a blessing ora curse, Nagash will probably not want to fight in his own domain ;)

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3 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

+1 to hit until the next hero phase, so for me it was a big deal on 4 concussors!

Aren't MW on unmodified 6 to hit ?

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3 minutes ago, Maturin said:

Aren't MW on unmodified 6 to hit ?

Yes but just having +1 hit overall really is nice as we do not have access to that otherwise and Kroak rains CP on the army anyway ;)

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5 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Yes but just having +1 hit overall really is nice as we do not have access to that otherwise and Kroak rains CP on the army anyway ;)

Lord celestant does in mêlée but with limited range

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5 minutes ago, Maturin said:

Lord celestant does in mêlée but with limited range

Ah yes but eh.. he did not make the cut to the list, he even have to be in the fight himself which is bonkers, SC rules at their finest ;) 

Now my worry for my upcoming tournament using a starcast list is Lord Kroak getting some FAQ or points so I cant fit him in anymore. My alternative to Kroak on balewind was a Knight incantor, lord exorcist and everblaze comet combo, clocking in at 310 and thena CP. This combo is far less powerful than Kroak in my tests. Unfortunately I am 10 pts short of being able to shorehorn in a Tauralon with comet instead, which might have been better than the 2 wizards on foot, but I do not want to downgrade the concussors, so I guess I can only wait to see if the FAQ might ruin my list just in time for the tournament...

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25 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Ah yes but eh.. he did not make the cut to the list, he even have to be in the fight himself which is bonkers, SC rules at their finest ;) 

Now my worry for my upcoming tournament using a starcast list is Lord Kroak getting some FAQ or points so I cant fit him in anymore. My alternative to Kroak on balewind was a Knight incantor, lord exorcist and everblaze comet combo, clocking in at 310 and thena CP. This combo is far less powerful than Kroak in my tests. Unfortunately I am 10 pts short of being able to shorehorn in a Tauralon with comet instead, which might have been better than the 2 wizards on foot, but I do not want to downgrade the concussors, so I guess I can only wait to see if the FAQ might ruin my list just in time for the tournament...

Another option : if you are running Kroak + balewind you can have a slann + saurus guard for the same points (barring changes ofc)

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Posted (edited)

Now we will see what the faq does to his points cost... 

20200715_233449.jpg.01ba2ffdb89ecc6d322b371137e17a60.jpg

Edited by Turragor
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12 hours ago, Turragor said:

Now we will see what the faq does to his points cost... 

Maybe they feel pity knowing Teclis is coming for him? Or the random loonbosses and hag queens who will shut down his casts if near any terrain in Shyish giving Nullifying ;) 

A regular Slann is ok but way less effective for the points, especially when it comes to handling similar pressure, where Kroaks 4+ wound ignore really allows him to better survive a mirror strategy or ranged alpha.

Without celestial deliverance the Slann also drastically drops in potential output to support the Starcast strategy I think.

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20 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

A regular Slann is ok but way less effective for the points, especially when it comes to handling similar pressure, where Kroaks 4+ wound ignore really allows him to better survive a mirror strategy or ranged alpha.

Without celestial deliverance the Slann also drastically drops in potential output to support the Starcast strategy I think.

I mean: sure a Slann doesn't hold a candle to Kroak at current points :D

however, on your two points:

1) slann + guards has actually a very similar survivability to Kroak on his own and it gives also 5 more bodies to cap an objective

2) In my experience, the one thing that really really helps in my games with StormKroak is the comet. It is quite rare that I can bring deliverance to bear in t1 (as the range is only 28-29" with the mirror and there's a double opportunity for unbind), and this costs 70 additional points. Of course in later turns deliverance is very useful but if I am using Kroak to dispel the everblaze comet, I generally only get one cast per turn (dispel - own comet - deliverance - mystic shield on templar).

So yeah, Kroak is king, but a Slann might still fill that role decently in case of point changes and stuff.

Something like this would be my SlannCast list

Spoiler
Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)
- General
- Celestine Hammer
- Command Trait: Staunch Defender
- Artefact: Plate of Perfect Protection
Drakesworn Templar (420)
- Tempest Axe
- Mount Trait: Storm-winged
Lord-Castellant (120)
Knight-Incantor (120)
- Spell: Chain Lightning
Lord-Relictor (100)
- Prayer: Translocation
Slann Starmaster (260)
- Allies
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Saurus Guard (100)
- Allies
Everblaze Comet (100)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 360 / 400
Wounds: 95

 

 

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Hight commmand of Stormcast brethen, i need your help! What artefact for LCoSD? Typical starcast list:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals

Leaders
Celestant-Prime (300)
Drakesworn Templar (420)
- Tempest Axe
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (200)
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
Lord-Exorcist (90)
- Spell: Chain Lightning
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)
- General
- Celestine Hammer
- Command Trait: Staunch Defender
- Mount Trait: Storm-winged
Lord-Castellant (120)

Battleline
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Everblaze Comet (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 88



Ward on 6+?
Reroll more than 1 dmg?
Ignore -1 rend?
 
Help me decide 😛

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3 minutes ago, Nizrah said:

 

Ward on 6+?
Reroll more than 1 dmg?
Ignore -1 rend?
 
Help me decide 😛

Chamon artifact. Ignore rend -1

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2 minutes ago, Maturin said:

Chamon artifact. Ignore rend -1

Agreed. The math on a 6+ ward is really bad (i.e. it adds 2.6 wounds to the Stardrake, a lot of things can do better)

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Yep I think that artefact is the way forward. 

At the same time, prep for TOs just blocking out realm rules entirely. 

It happens in my area a good bit :)

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51 minutes ago, Turragor said:

Yep I think that artefact is the way forward. 

At the same time, prep for TOs just blocking out realm rules entirely. 

It happens in my area a good bit :)

The tournament I am attending in two weeks time already banned Chamon realm rules, but not artifact at least.

I think that is a knee ****** reaction though, just because people freak out at seeing "+1 save" anywhere. Chamon will not be the miost impactful I am sure, Shyish and Ulgu will probably end up having much more impact once people look beyond the obvious.

Shyish makes all terrain nullifying, think about that for a second, extra unbinds everywhere, this realm will be a major problem for caster heavy lists.

Ulgu gives the teleport command, at the END of the movement phase, for 1 CP a hero can take a unit wholly within 18" and put them wholly within 6" and 9" from enemies. This is guaranteed for 1 CP. The problem with teleports for many armies is simply the 7+ cast requirement usually, always fails or gets unbind when you actually need it. Just thinking about how Ironjawz or StD can use this... Mawkrusha flying up the board, 1 CP teleports 30 ardboyz up 9" away from enemies and enjoy the +3 to charge they got... StD with a manticore summoning 40 marauders up in front it itself 9" from enemies, now the 40 marauders only fail on snake eyes and the manticore flies 12", kan put the unit up to 6" in front of itself and 9" from enemies, that is a distance of 27" easily covered, guaranteed for 1 CP! (in fact ardboyz could get even futher, with movement in the hero phase if needed)

So what do you think, does a +1 save spell sound so bad compared to the above? I think not, but of course that is an opinion, but having access to maybe 1 unit getting a +1 save buff seems far less impactful than unbinds everywhere or constant access to teleporting for 1 CP.

That was a bit of sidetrack for Starcast, but realms will certainly have an impact for everyone, especially if played as intended with a player choosing based on roll of.

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1 hour ago, Nizrah said:

Hight commmand of Stormcast brethen, i need your help! What artefact for LCoSD? Typical starcast list:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals

Leaders
Celestant-Prime (300)
Drakesworn Templar (420)
- Tempest Axe
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (200)
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
Lord-Exorcist (90)
- Spell: Chain Lightning
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)
- General
- Celestine Hammer
- Command Trait: Staunch Defender
- Mount Trait: Storm-winged
Lord-Castellant (120)

Battleline
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Everblaze Comet (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 88



Ward on 6+?
Reroll more than 1 dmg?
Ignore -1 rend?
 
Help me decide 😛

Ive been thinking if there is a case to be made for Shielded by faith over Staunch defender? Shielded by faith gives the LCoSD a 5+ ignoring mortals wounds. Given how survivable the drake will be if it is ignoring -1 rend, 2+ save (with castellant) and healing on at 6+, actually needing to roll double 1’s or face -2 rend to ever take any damage, it might be worth having that 1/3 chance of saving a mortal wound? 

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35 minutes ago, Django said:

Ive been thinking if there is a case to be made for Shielded by faith over Staunch defender? Shielded by faith gives the LCoSD a 5+ ignoring mortals wounds. Given how survivable the drake will be if it is ignoring -1 rend, 2+ save (with castellant) and healing on at 6+, actually needing to roll double 1’s or face -2 rend to ever take any damage, it might be worth having that 1/3 chance of saving a mortal wound? 

Could depend on the meta but against any alpha shooting armies with 1st turn your dragon could be in a world of hurt, staunch allows you to castle up and mitigate alphas a lot, it also gives you the option to succeed with a defensive strategy.

Without staunch anything with rend 2 will just chew up the dragon, especially if the castellant gets focused down, then there will be real trouble. I posted about this before, but the dragon should not just get melted to MW only, so with smart play, the castallant buff and the ignore rend 1 artifact, it should be doable to find a unit to simply get to hit the dragon and heal it up that way, even if charging you should still get more 6s than failed rerolled 1's by a large magain.

Staunch is just such a game maker, if you do not bring that, then I would probably look into a stormhost instead.

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3 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Could depend on the meta but against any alpha shooting armies with 1st turn your dragon could be in a world of hurt, staunch allows you to castle up and mitigate alphas a lot, it also gives you the option to succeed with a defensive strategy.

Without staunch anything with rend 2 will just chew up the dragon, especially if the castellant gets focused down, then there will be real trouble. I posted about this before, but the dragon should not just get melted to MW only, so with smart play, the castallant buff and the ignore rend 1 artifact, it should be doable to find a unit to simply get to hit the dragon and heal it up that way, even if charging you should still get more 6s than failed rerolled 1's by a large magain.

Staunch is just such a game maker, if you do not bring that, then I would probably look into a stormhost instead.

Yeah okay I see. Weird rules question that is probably quite obvious: I am quite new to the game, played like 10 games only. Say I cast a spell that requires the target unit to be wholly within 12” (empower for example). I used to measure it like this: If the entire unit of say sequitors that I want to target with the spell, is wholly within any part of any evocators base (say I have a 5man unit), then I can cast the spell. What I mean is: I did not measure the entire base of the caster when measuring whether the sequitors are wholly within 12” of the evocators or not: i just measured from any part of 1 evocator models base. 

Now my last opponent (first time playing him) told me that I have to measure the entire base of the caster aswell, for something to be wholly within. This made me confused, as I though that would mean that a LCoSD with Staunch have to fit the entire massive base inside of wholly within 9” for staunch to work. I just figured that then it can almost never work, as how am I supposed to fit the entire base of the stardrake + say 5 liberators on a 9” footprint. 

Surely my opponent were wrong/I  misunderstood him? This is one of the reasons I figured staunch wasn’t as good as I though. 

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Django said:

Surely my opponent were wrong

927841232_YesBlackTemplar.jpg.70be4ed43a6d1d3224ede007e907c00b.jpg

Edited by Maturin
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@DjangoYou were doing that right, you just have to have the unit recieinv the spell effect wholly within range of any part of the casting units base, so the edge works fine for the closest possible evocator.

I could rant on about the "within" and "wholly within" effects all day, once enough of these effects are present it just slows the game to a crawl... Wholly within was really to combat congo lining, but 9th 40k has now dealth with that by using better unit coherency rules, so I hope we see that in 3rd edition someday and no more of those wholly within nonsense ;) 

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