Starcast - The Thread

[Turragor]

20 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

About the last point, I would still go for Spellweaver + Exorcist, so you can (at least try, if you are going second) put the latter out of unbind range and increase the chances of the comet

Thats a good point. To unbind (if opponent takes turn 1) the incantor would need to be in range. In turn risking the chance of an unbind on comet (if Im given turn 1).

[rogue_michael]

I ran a LAoCD and dracolines list at a tournament last month and really struggled to get things going. This is mostly on me as a player, I know, so I'm not ditching it like the list definitely doesn't work, but I'm happy trying something new. This is the list I ran:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220)
- General
- Trait: Staunch Defender
- Spell: Celestial Blades
- Mount Trait: Pride Leader
Knight-Heraldor (100)
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Lightning Blast
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Stormcaller
10 x Liberators (200)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandblades
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
6 x Evocators on Dracolines (520)
- 3x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades
5 x Vanguard-Hunters (110)
- Boltstorm Pistols and Shock Handaxes
Everblaze Comet (100)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Chronomantic Cogs (80)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 102

And I have a Stardrake on my painting desk. So I figured while I might not be going proper Starcast, I might as well join the conversation here

Not had any particular thoughts on spells or mount trait yet. I think in an ideal world the dracolines would be dracothian guard, but dracolines is what I have. This is what I'm looking at at the moment:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)
- General
- Celestine Hammer
- Trait: Staunch Defender
Lord-Castellant (120)
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220)
- Mount Trait: Pride Leader
Knight-Incantor (140)
Knight-Incantor (140)
10 x Liberators (200)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandblades
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
3 x Evocators on Dracolines (260)
- 3x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades
Everblaze Comet (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 94

 

[Turragor]

11 hours ago, rogue_michael said:

I ran a LAoCD and dracolines list at a tournament last month and really struggled to get things going. This is mostly on me as a player, I know, so I'm not ditching it like the list definitely doesn't work, but I'm happy trying something new. This is the list I ran:

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220)
- General
- Trait: Staunch Defender
- Spell: Celestial Blades
- Mount Trait: Pride Leader
Knight-Heraldor (100)
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Lightning Blast
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Stormcaller
10 x Liberators (200)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandblades
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
6 x Evocators on Dracolines (520)
- 3x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades
5 x Vanguard-Hunters (110)
- Boltstorm Pistols and Shock Handaxes
Everblaze Comet (100)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Chronomantic Cogs (80)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 102

And I have a Stardrake on my painting desk. So I figured while I might not be going proper Starcast, I might as well join the conversation here

Not had any particular thoughts on spells or mount trait yet. I think in an ideal world the dracolines would be dracothian guard, but dracolines is what I have. This is what I'm looking at at the moment:

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)
- General
- Celestine Hammer
- Trait: Staunch Defender
Lord-Castellant (120)
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220)
- Mount Trait: Pride Leader
Knight-Incantor (140)
Knight-Incantor (140)
10 x Liberators (200)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandblades
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
3 x Evocators on Dracolines (260)
- 3x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades
Everblaze Comet (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 94

 

Hey man!

I think your list looks real balanced, it's worth playtesting I always say that. What I find is that with our tome, we really want to specialise rather than try to cover all the bases. It seems like you want to test Starcast (rain of stars and a comet - with 3 casters so you get it each turn - is an acceptable start) but enjoy the punch of the dracolines with the LAoCD. So we might focus on those 3 elements - the Dracolines & LAoCD, the Stardrake & Castellant, the comet & SC caster(s).

Looking at your list I see some things I might trim to pump up what you've cut out (6 to 3 dracolines).

One of the unfortunate "trademarks" of starcast is the bare minimum 300 pt battleline investment. I've dabbled with juds then a big unit of libs, considered other experiments, but it's investing in things that just sit there on objectives or act as road bumps. I am not a huge fan (could just be playstyle related).

So I'd maybe trim your list down to 300 on 3 x 5 libs.

I'd also consider removing 1 incantor and taking a 100 pt or 80 pt allied caster. Maybe the spellweaver like I'm considering.

I think that's 260 pts. Which I'd go ahead and use (for your first playtest) on 3 more Evocators on Dracolines. You could also consider running two casters and then just taking a Prime buuut I think that'd be weaker without making more changes to your list and ending up with just ... my list I spose lol

A nice alternative is to take the Heraldor instead of the Spellweaver.

Here's my feedback list then:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)
- General
- Celestine Hammer
- Command Trait: Staunch Defender
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
Lord-Castellant (120)
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220)
- Spell: Chain Lightning
- Mount Trait: Pride Leader
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Azyrite Halo

[Spellweaver (100)
- Heartwood Staff
- Allies

OR

Knight-Heraldor (100)]

5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
6 x Evocators on Dracolines (520)
- 3x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades
Everblaze Comet (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 100 / 400
Wounds: 99

You make me want to paint up the dracolines and try this out They add something Dracoths don't (another caster, a bit more speed and punch).

Edited February 11, 2020 by Turragor

[Naem]

Do you think the Lord Castellant found in most Starcast lists is absolutely mandatory? Because I was thinking of replacing him for an Excorcist in Order to have 2 Casters (him and Incantor) alternatively replacing him with Lord Relictor for some more mobility. 

[schwabbele]

5 minutes ago, Naem said:

Do you think the Lord Castellant found in most Starcast lists is absolutely mandatory?

For me yes, +1 save and heal a wound on a 6+ is what makes the drake the pita for your opponent. Combined with staunch defender the drake is rend1 „immune“ that’s huge too.

 

edit

for me the castellant is the most used hero actually,  the buff on evocators is also nasty, combined with a mystic shield might even introduce vomiting for your opponent 🤗

Edited February 11, 2020 by schwabbele

[schwabbele]

6 hours ago, Turragor said:

You make me want to paint up the dracolines and try this out They add something Dracoths don't (another caster, a bit more speed and punch).

But don’t forget they cost a ton of points, and are hard to place- especially the wholly within 9“ from pride leader if you use a unit of 6. 

however when they hit, they usually remove the threat from the table - or get durthud and fight last and lose half unit first 😂

 

[Marcvs]

9 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

For me yes, +1 save and heal a wound on a 6+ is what makes the drake the pita for your opponent. Combined with staunch defender the drake is rend1 „immune“ that’s huge too

Also, the +1 to save allows you to charge with the LCoSD (hence, losing staunch defender) into a block of enemies without rend and still remain 2+ rr1 and heal on natural 6

[rogue_michael]

7 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

But don’t forget they cost a ton of points, and are hard to place- especially the wholly within 9“ from pride leader if you use a unit of 6. 

however when they hit, they usually remove the threat from the table - or get durthud and fight last and lose half unit first 😂

 

Yep I found 6 so very unwieldy. I struggle to imagine a situation where I could bring more than 3, maybe 4, to bear on the charge with Pride Leader up. I've had all of them in combat, but that was after being counter-charged 😅

I actually think I might be able to get more done with 3 than 6, or at least closer to the same amount than half the amount!

[readercolin]

16 minutes ago, rogue_michael said:

Yep I found 6 so very unwieldy. I struggle to imagine a situation where I could bring more than 3, maybe 4, to bear on the charge with Pride Leader up. I've had all of them in combat, but that was after being counter-charged 😅

I actually think I might be able to get more done with 3 than 6, or at least closer to the same amount than half the amount!

As someone who has been playing with 6 kitties for a year and a half now:

3 kitties at 2k just don't do enough.  If your buffs don't go off or get dispelled, then they usually don't have enough offensive power to do more than eat a block of chaff.  If they do go off, then they can do a good bit of damage, but usually still not enough to handle a big block of the opposing force (with everything going off, they only deal ~20 damage to a 4+ save if they charge).

Meanwhile, taking 6 means that they have enough damage to kill most smaller blocks on the charge even without any buffs.  When fully buffed, the only thing that can really survive their charge is a block of hearthguard berzerkers.  They also carry buffs better, as celestial blades is a great spell to cast on them, and they also benefit better from having a heraldor around to let them retreat/run and still charge.  As for getting them all on target, the only time I've experienced a problem there is trying to charge a single model (can only get 5 of them in contact to kill Gotrek).  Getting them all within 9" for pride leader?  That's a bit tougher.  But getting Celestial Blades off on the bigger group makes up for that in my experience.

[rogue_michael]

1 minute ago, readercolin said:

As someone who has been playing with 6 kitties for a year and a half now:

3 kitties at 2k just don't do enough.  If your buffs don't go off or get dispelled, then they usually don't have enough offensive power to do more than eat a block of chaff.  If they do go off, then they can do a good bit of damage, but usually still not enough to handle a big block of the opposing force (with everything going off, they only deal ~20 damage to a 4+ save if they charge).

Meanwhile, taking 6 means that they have enough damage to kill most smaller blocks on the charge even without any buffs.  When fully buffed, the only thing that can really survive their charge is a block of hearthguard berzerkers.  They also carry buffs better, as celestial blades is a great spell to cast on them, and they also benefit better from having a heraldor around to let them retreat/run and still charge.  As for getting them all on target, the only time I've experienced a problem there is trying to charge a single model (can only get 5 of them in contact to kill Gotrek).  Getting them all within 9" for pride leader?  That's a bit tougher.  But getting Celestial Blades off on the bigger group makes up for that in my experience.

Ah ok, I was definitely committing to trying to get buffs up over getting everything in, which probably messed things up a bit. Maybe if I switch that focus around I'll be better off.

Do you tend to run them in the sky or on the board?

[readercolin]

Just now, rogue_michael said:

Ah ok, I was definitely committing to trying to get buffs up over getting everything in, which probably messed things up a bit. Maybe if I switch that focus around I'll be better off.

Do you tend to run them in the sky or on the board?

Unless there is something that can remove them before I go, I always run them on the board.  This is because getting those spells off to buff them makes such a big deal in their damage output, I want them on the board so I can attempt to do so.  Additionally, I run with a Heraldor, and the run+charge means that they can pretty easily get anywhere I want them to be.

[rogue_michael]

15 minutes ago, readercolin said:

Unless there is something that can remove them before I go, I always run them on the board.  This is because getting those spells off to buff them makes such a big deal in their damage output, I want them on the board so I can attempt to do so.  Additionally, I run with a Heraldor, and the run+charge means that they can pretty easily get anywhere I want them to be.

Cool, ta. I went into my tournament planning to do that (also had a Heraldor), but ended up convincing myself to put them in the sky the first few games, which at least some of the time was a mistake. Then tried a board deploy and absolutely messed up the deployment, got them killed. Then was up against an old-rules KO clown car on Starstrike, so the sky really did seem like the best option there.

I'll mull over going back up to 6, then, and committing to trying to do board deploys wherever possible. One thing with the run and charge was that I was conscious about leaving the LAoCD behind. Is that just par for the course, and if she catches up she catches up, but not something to prioritise?

[readercolin]

2 minutes ago, rogue_michael said:

Cool, ta. I went into my tournament planning to do that (also had a Heraldor), but ended up convincing myself to put them in the sky the first few games, which at least some of the time was a mistake. Then tried a board deploy and absolutely messed up the deployment, got them killed. Then was up against an old-rules KO clown car on Starstrike, so the sky really did seem like the best option there.

I'll mull over going back up to 6, then, and committing to trying to do board deploys wherever possible. One thing with the run and charge was that I was conscious about leaving the LAoCD behind. Is that just par for the course, and if she catches up she catches up, but not something to prioritise?

I like to keep the LAoCD nearby enough to get off celestial blades.  If I can get it in range for the pride leader buff, even better.  However, especially in the first turn, I'll frequently keep the LAoCD back a little bit so that way its less likely to get countercharged.  Also, don't be afraid to have them charge 2 units if you can get all the buffs off.  Fully buffed, a unit of kitties can put out ~72 damage on average to a save of -, or ~46 damage to a 4+ save.  If you are willing to drop Staunch Defender, I find they work especially well with Celestial Vindicators because they get to re-roll 1's to hit on the charge and you can command point to give them an extra attack (which can buff them up to ~92 damage to a save of -, or ~58 damage to a 4+ save).  This is usually enough to obliterate not 1, but 2 different units when charging if your opponent didn't screen properly.

[rogue_michael]

18 minutes ago, readercolin said:

I like to keep the LAoCD nearby enough to get off celestial blades.  If I can get it in range for the pride leader buff, even better.  However, especially in the first turn, I'll frequently keep the LAoCD back a little bit so that way its less likely to get countercharged.  Also, don't be afraid to have them charge 2 units if you can get all the buffs off.  Fully buffed, a unit of kitties can put out ~72 damage on average to a save of -, or ~46 damage to a 4+ save.  If you are willing to drop Staunch Defender, I find they work especially well with Celestial Vindicators because they get to re-roll 1's to hit on the charge and you can command point to give them an extra attack (which can buff them up to ~92 damage to a save of -, or ~58 damage to a 4+ save).  This is usually enough to obliterate not 1, but 2 different units when charging if your opponent didn't screen properly.

Excellent, thanks. This gives me a lot of good stuff to think on. I'd also made what I think was the mistake of putting Staunch on my LAoCD, which made me even more want to try to keep her in position for that, which really broke things. Won't be doing that again, regardless of what build I run.

I'll see if I can make room for the 6 in the drake list, then. If I can't, do you think I go for something else entirely (I don't really have any other options built tbh and I'm not really in a position to add anything beyond the drake and the Castellant) or is the 3 playable in a pinch? I would probably be keeping Staunch for the drake castle (whereas I'd consider CV for my drakeless list).

[readercolin]

1 hour ago, rogue_michael said:

Excellent, thanks. This gives me a lot of good stuff to think on. I'd also made what I think was the mistake of putting Staunch on my LAoCD, which made me even more want to try to keep her in position for that, which really broke things. Won't be doing that again, regardless of what build I run.

I'll see if I can make room for the 6 in the drake list, then. If I can't, do you think I go for something else entirely (I don't really have any other options built tbh and I'm not really in a position to add anything beyond the drake and the Castellant) or is the 3 playable in a pinch? I would probably be keeping Staunch for the drake castle (whereas I'd consider CV for my drakeless list).

3 is still playable, but they change from a punch that can take out major threats to something that can clear screens and dash around to quickly take objectives.  There is very little that has the same mobility in the stormcast lineup while still being able to clear light objective holders.  Personally, I'm not sure that they are worth it in a block of 3, but I've also been relying on them to be one of my main punches.  With a drake list that has the stardrake and more sources of mortal wounds, 3 might still be enough to pay off.

[Bozly]

I like the look of these celestial dracoline lists and am curious of what you all are running. Has anyone ran cleansing phalanx with them and had any success?

a list i whipped up is something like

tempest lords

LAoCD

- general

Lord relictor

Chamber item

-translocation

Heraldor or spellweaver

aetherquartz brooch

10 seq

10 seq

5 lib

6 Evo on dracoline

5 evocators

emerald life swarm

extra command point

 

I personally feel a stardrake list may actually be better here but i love the chamber abilities a little too much and think we can get more mileage out of them instead of staunch defender

This list has a very clear and very obvious weakness, our lord arcanum dies the whole point of the list is dead but

 

every time we spend command point we have two 5+ chances to gain it back

 

we start with 3 and a 50/50 to go 4

we dont need celestial vindicators reroll 1s to hit on charge because we can just spend a command point to do it

 

its all about just infinitely spamming increase attack on the dracolines until you run out of command points  and then just bop em!

i mean theoretically we could take out the lifeswarm relictor and 5 sequitors and just put in another arcanum and 3 more dracolines. If the combo gets off we’ll shred em anyway i guess

i dont know i see this list as just a fun list probably not tournament viable. What do ya’ll think

[Bozly]

So a stardrake list could look like

tempest lords

LAoCD

-pride leader

lord castellant

-chamber item

LCoSD

Knight heraldor or lord exorcist with azyrite halo

 

10 sequitors

5 lib

5 lib

6 Evo on dracoline

extra command point

 

this list has some interesting play against tzeench of all things. I think a stardrake is good against them because we can eat banners if we live long enough to get there. They also have a lot of ****** small arms fire so if we can get azyrite halo off safely it could be good.

 

 

just an idea

 

 

[Marcvs]

27 minutes ago, Bozly said:

So a stardrake list could look like

tempest lords

LAoCD

-pride leader

lord castellant

-chamber item

LCoSD

Knight heraldor or lord exorcist with azyrite halo

 

10 sequitors

5 lib

5 lib

6 Evo on dracoline

extra command point

 

this list has some interesting play against tzeench of all things. I think a stardrake is good against them because we can eat banners if we live long enough to get there. They also have a lot of ****** small arms fire so if we can get azyrite halo off safely it could be good.

 

 

just an idea

 

 

personally I would swap the 10 sequitors for 5 libs and use the points for a comet (so to have some support-heroes killing potential) and upgrade the exorcist to incantor

[Lucur]

We might jsut get a Kittycator thread going, to not derail the Starcast archetype further?

Edited February 12, 2020 by Lucur

[Turragor]

4 hours ago, Bozly said:

think a stardrake is good against them because we can eat banners if we live long enough to get there.

Can confirm, I beat Changehost in the extra rend host pre-FAQ with the Starcast list a page or so back (with 6 hurricane raptors)

[Turragor]

24 minutes ago, Lucur said:

We might jsut get a Kitty ator thread going, to not derail the Starcast archetype further?

Can keep the different schools of war pure for new users looking for non-shootcast

Ofc there's crossover. Given all the ideas I've seen suggested since I started this thread, I've kind of got Starcast categorised as follows in my head:

List always has at least one drake

IF one drake, list has the Prime

IF two drakes, list sometimes has the Prime

List always has comet and caster(s)

List often has only 3 x 5 libs

But ofc, interpretations differ.

Starcast is a lot of chip mortal wound dmg with a stardrake (at its core)

Edited February 12, 2020 by Turragor

[Bozly]

6 hours ago, Marcvs said:

personally I would swap the 10 sequitors for 5 libs and use the points for a comet (so to have some support-heroes killing potential) and upgrade the exorcist to incantor

I like this we are really lacking a way to kill backline this plus stardrake has some potential to drop 5 wound squishies. I’m worried about only having 2 threats in the drake and dracolines, but my shootcast list plays the same way so maybe it isnt a big deal

[readercolin]

I think that if you want to have the maximum mixture of Starcast and Kitties, that you would want to start here and test it out:

Lord-Celestant on Stardrake
    General
    Staunch Defender
Celestant-Prime
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline
    Pride Leader
6 Evocators on Celestial Dracoline
3x 5 Liberators
Everblaze Comet

This gives you the core of starcast, which is the Stardrake, Celestant-Prime, and Everblaze Comet.  The comet is castable by the Lord-Arcanum, and you have 3 major threats that your opponent has to deal with in the drake, the prime, and the kitties.

However, there are a few standout problems with this list.  First off, there is no space for a Castellent.  This also reduces the benefits of taking staunch defender, which makes taking a different stormhost a bit more appealing.  Second, you only have a single caster for your comet, which makes that a bit less reliable.  That being said, dropping the comet does open up the space to bring a castellent, but then you are reducing your chip damage.

[Maturin]

1 minute ago, readercolin said:

However, there are a few standout problems with this list.  First off, there is no space for a Castellent.  This also reduces the benefits of taking staunch defender, which makes taking a different stormhost a bit more appealing.  Second, you only have a single caster for your comet, which makes that a bit less reliable.  That being said, dropping the comet does open up the space to bring a castellent, but then you are reducing your chip damage

Bring the Stardrake in melee with something that has either 0 or rend-1, he should survive long enough.
Charge the dracolines into something you really need to delete in one turn.
Celestant prime is enough to kill most heroes in two rounds (guaranteed 6 MW in radius). If you get double turn, your enemy is toast.

The advantage you've got with dracolines over dracoths is that they're wizards. But going Drakes + racoths would make a better use of the few commands points we have.

 

[Turragor]

I am 90% 55% 0% sure I read this in a designers commentary somewhere but units that can be wizards don't get a dispell right? Just a warscroll spell, lore spell (if applicable) and an unbind.

Re: Keeping Starcast's nature and having the kitties and LAoCD as a hammer, I like to break my SC lists into components. At the simplest level the components are:

• LCoSD & Castellant
• Comet & Caster
• Drakesworn Templar & Ethereal Amulet
• Celestant Prime
• The 3 Wise Lib Units

All those elements go into my main list but bar the libs you can swap out for other components and test effectiveness. You also have points (100) for:

• The final piece of the puzzle (if you like 30 rock - what a great show -  think "The third kind of heat")

The final piece for me varies and depends on whether I've swapped out ONE of the 4 swapable components above.

Basically if I go pure starcast I have 100 points flexible and if I swap any one of those elements I suddenly have upwards of 500 free.

I would suggest ppl trial the LAoCD and 3 - 6 Evocators on Dracolines as a component and see which of the above are worse off than that choice.

If none of them are worse off, then it doesn't mean the kittybomb isn't a great component but more it dilutes Starcast's "point" enough that you're into good hybrid list territory and focusing on that hybridity will yield more benefits than trying to adhere to any Starcast gameplan.

Basically I'm saying we (well "we" but "I" personally don't have the models and won't add more SC to my 6000 or so points of SC until probably a new tome is out anyway), I'm saying we try out a variation of Starcast - give it a cool name to make ppl enjoy the idea (Starkittens) - and if it feels worse than playing a pure cat list or pure SC list then explore what a hybrid list can offer over in the likes of this snazzy new thread

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Turragor