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Gareth 🍄

Warhammer - The Old World

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15 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

30k didn't split the 40k community.

Chances are by the time this releases, the Cities of Sigmar forces will have evolved into their own AoS-only specific armies anyway.

Also, this will do more to heal the transition. Not to repeat myself, but I think we'll see a lot more WHFB players who were still burnt by AoS' existence considering giving it a try, knowing their old, favourite game is coming back in the future.

This is not the same as 30k and 40k. Fantasy vs AoS is already toxic starting out. Still lots of people complaining about ending Fantasy and talking about AoS being a mistake and a failure. Its been slowing down and now GW is keeping it going. STUPID. 

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9 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

People need to stop comparing to 30k and saying that didn't cannibalise 40k.

This is completely different. 30k starter from scratch with nothing but some lore/background. It's always been an expensive, mostly resin niche. AND a fair bit of it is cross compatible with 40k. 30k also wasnt around for 30 years then killed off 5 years ago. 

This announcement will absolutely affect AOS especially if the models are on different bases and not cross compatible. I feel that would be an enormous mistake. 

This is anecdotal, but with this announcement being so far out, I don't know what I'll do over the next few year after I finish my current army. 

It's impossible to know what will happen to the local community so there's no point buying and building armies now with an uncertain future. 

I'll probably go play underworlds and star wars legion instead, and continue using existing armies but not buying new stuff. No matter how cool hysh elves are, no point investing if 80% of local players go back to WFB. 

It's also a weird business decision. You're announcing a new product that's actually an old product to bring back old players who already have all the old product and just like 10 years ago they probably won't buy whole new armies since they already have them... So what's the point? Obviously that's a huge generalisation but that's part of why WFB died in the first place. That still hasn't changed. People went to Total War because it offered a better WFB experience without the cost. 

You still need new blood or to convert AOS players for this to work. New blood in WFB was always tricky and cannibalising AOS seems counter productive. 

This is my perspective as well, I think this is just GW trying to retain the ip and undercutting the competition. Since in the very same article they pat themselves on the back stating that AOS is one of the highest selling fantasy wargames. 

It seems very strange to me to announce something that is possibly half a decade away. Ironically from my perspective most people are either confused, don't care, moved onto other games or somewhat excited but staying on the side of caution. 

The highest rated comment on war of sigmar is someone stating "I just shrugged so hard I dislocated a shoulder."

Edited by shinros
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1 hour ago, Orsino said:

I can't really see how two concurrent fantasy battle games set in very similiar worlds with similiar characters can work for GW if the models are the same scale.  They're not gonna bring all the models they've just scrapped back into production. They're not gonna want to confuse the branding by having the same models represent different units. They're not gonna let players use the models they already have if they can get them to buy more.  A different scale would seem to solve all these problems. 

Titanicus scale WHFB? (Warmaster) :^)

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23 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

You're announcing a new product that's actually an old product to bring back old players who already have all the old product and just like 10 years ago they probably won't buy whole new armies since they already have them... So what's the point?

Except that they didn't announce an old product. They announced a new product in the old setting. That's a huge difference. We don't even know whether the old models would still be useable. Perhaps it's a completely different scale.

This is a lot of doom-gloom the sky is falling mentality for something we barely know anything about yet.

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23 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

You're announcing a new product that's actually an old product to bring back old players who already have all the old product and just like 10 years ago they probably won't buy whole new armies since they already have them... So what's the point?

Except that they didn't announce an old product. They announced a new product in the old setting. That's a huge difference. We don't even know whether the old models would still be useable. Perhaps it's a completely different scale.

This is a lot of doom-gloom the sky is falling mentality for something we barely know anything about yet.

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Honestly I don’t get how people react so negatively to this news.

How is more options so bad? Why worry so much about people ditching AoS in at least 3 years? That’s 3 years of games you could be having, that’s enough for anyone to build and play an army and have fun with your friends. 

It’s crazy to me how much complaining about the past (Fantasy sucked, GW let it sink), the present (AoS sucked, is pay to win, is unbalanced) and the future (Fantasy will suck, AoS will be destroyed, we can’t do anything while we don’t know how it will be) goes on at the same time. Where are the people who are just having fun with it?

I understand everyone’s venting, and to be clear that’s also what I’m doing 😅 

But yeah, it baffles me how such a vague and (to me) pretty positive announcement turns into doomsaying so quickly...

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24 minutes ago, Silchas_Ruin said:

This is not the same as 30k and 40k. Fantasy vs AoS is already toxic starting out. Still lots of people complaining about ending Fantasy and talking about AoS being a mistake and a failure. Its been slowing down and now GW is keeping it going. STUPID. 

Let's not pretend there's also not plenty of AoS players who delight in any figment of WHFB being stomped out. Interestingly, it's typically those same people now up in arms about this announcement.

Edited by Clan's Cynic
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23 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

You're announcing a new product that's actually an old product to bring back old players who already have all the old product and just like 10 years ago they probably won't buy whole new armies since they already have them... So what's the point?

Except that they didn't announce an old product. They announced a new product in the old setting. That's a huge difference. We don't even know whether the old models would still be useable. Perhaps it's a completely different scale.

This is a lot of doom-gloom the sky is falling mentality for something we barely know anything about yet.

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As @Sleboda said, this would be an incredible announcement if it was on a different scale. But on 28mm it will heavily compete with AoS on the detriment of both systems.

And the system will not be the only one get canniballised. The lore, the stories and the novels of AoS will suffer as well. I am all for new Old World content, but the Mortal Realms need some attention on that front. They are not yet fleshed out properly and there is not much going there lorewise. Apart from Gardus and Hamilcar, how many AoS original characters can you name? There are Gotrek' sidekicks i guess... 

Well, i am excited to see how this goes, but i really hope AoS doesn't end up as just an interval or a vehicle to sell pretty models, and the campaign books and the lore progression is going elsewhere. 

 

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1 minute ago, Panzer said:

Except that they didn't announce an old product. They announced a new product in the old setting. That's a huge difference. We don't even know whether the old models would still be useable. Perhaps it's a completely different scale.

This is a lot of doom-gloom the sky is falling mentality for something we barely know anything about yet.

That's why I think it's a bad idea to announce something that is almost half a decade away, that's largely my only problem with this. We have no idea what scale it's going to be, how the models will work, how they will change the lore to fit with AOS etc. Let's not forget price as well, if GW tries to use the current pricing method with old point values it's going to kill this new game. 

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The story so far:
In the beginning Warhammer was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

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6 minutes ago, Moldek said:

The story so far:
In the beginning Warhammer was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Out of likes for today so you'll get a quote instead. :P 

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19 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Let's not pretend there's also not plenty of AoS players who delight in any figment of WHFB being stomped out. Interestingly, it's typically those same people now up in arms about this announcement.

Yeah, I get this a lot. Some people have such a bad experience with Fantasy players that they react to anything that was made before AoS started with as negative a reaction.

Because that makes the world better how?

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I don't have anything against fantasy players nor have I seen anything from fantasy players that I don't see from, well, pretty much every games' players.  

Our fantasy players have said that fantasy didn't do well because no one wanted to paint a bunch of normal troops and the way AOS got rid of restrictions is why AOS is doing so well, being able to take basically whatever you want and not have to paint a bunch of models.

But those fantasy players are wanting to go back to whfb now that they think its coming back and thats like half of my store.

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Since they compared it to the Horus Heresy my hope is that the game will be based of the current (AoS 3.0/4.0? by the time this is released?) AoS ruleset just like the Heresy was built from 6th edition 40k, warscrolls may exist in a similar format to how they are in AoS and all that will change are added layers to the games core rules that allow for larger battles. The model line should hopefully be the same scale as AoS just like HH range can work in 40k armies, I think they'd shoot themselves in the foot otherwise.

Rules wise I think it'll be its own game with units not being compatible with AoS but the minis themselves will be. Then again 4 years ago I thought it would be stupid to move armies all onto round bases and look how that turned out lol.

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49 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Let's not pretend there's also not plenty of AoS players who delight in any figment of WHFB being stomped out. Interestingly, it's typically those same people now up in arms about this announcement.

^ This. A lot of AoS fans have this utterly baffling hatred/persecution complex for Fantasy.

Relax dudes. No one is going to steal your toys. And all the people worried about "toxicity" aren't helping. Let people enjoy what they want and dont moan if what they want is different than your desires.

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@Dead Scribe I think it’s true that not everyone wants to paint a bunch of troops. That said AoS armies are still quite a lot of work, and I doubt that’s the main factor here. Visually AoS draws more from modern high fantasy aesthetics such as Mtg, DnD etc and that plus the simple core rules has played a big part.

But I think your gaming group should hold their horses; we have no indication that the rules of Warhammer Old World will be similar to Fantasy...

The savvy thing to do would probably be to build an army around demons, skaven, empire or some other faction that could easily work in the two settings; that way even if half your friends switch systems you still might get some games in :)

Edit : (not directed at anyone specific) I think people should also remind themselves that there’s no 2 sides called « AoS fans » and « WFB fans ». I’m pretty confident that the intersection of those groups is the majority of the players.

Edited by Moldek
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There are two groups - one within AoS and one withing Warhammer Old World - both of which have some die hard fanatics who give the rest of the entire fanbase (most of which cross over both games without any problem) a bad name. Early on there was some considerable hostility form the Old World against AoS; but this was MORE aimed at GW; however it was often expressed poorly and came off as or was attacks on the AoS gamers. 

Online though it was also genera hijacking of threads about AoS turning into pepole complaining about how AoS killed everything and it wasn't Old World

 

 

I like to think that as time has gone on and especially since GW turned over a new leaf and started with AoS 2.0; that a lot of that fanatic hatred has gone away. Sure there will still be a few; and more than a few who run youtube or blogs who do so just for the clicks from being all edgy; but otherwise the vast majority won't be hostile. Heck a large portion of AoS players are Old World players. We even have a huge thread on it:

In the end we are all just people who like our miniatures. Be it to collect, to convert, to sculpt, to paint, to battle - and a whole mish mash of all those things added up. 

 

 

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I think the hype train is moving very fast. Making any assumptions based on what little we know is risky.

Edited by Horseburner

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why announce things 3 or more years away
sure, a bit in advance is nice but what are people going to with 3 or maybe 4 years of an interval.

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5 minutes ago, Indecisive said:

why announce things 3 or more years away
sure, a bit in advance is nice but what are people going to with 3 or maybe 4 years of an interval.

running theory is that it more of an industry statement that they going to compete with Kings of War and ASOIAF in the rank and file miniature game so beware to those who pluck stuff from fantasy.

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I dont see a point in this. Why would GW make another system that will further divide the already small player base? Seems counter-productive. The sweep away decades of old world in order to completely re-image and re-define what traditional fantasy is only to bring back a version that will probably only be a shadow of what it was. And lets be real..aside from classic rank and file armies the entire system was bloated garbage at its end. 

Plus they are already advertising it as the Horus Heresy of fantasy which means it wont be anything like people are expecting.

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We also may all be jumping the gun we don't know what they are building it may not be another regimental   battle scale like the old WHFB maybe this will be more like mordeheim or the old warhammer skirmish. heck the development team may not know what the game they are building. the only thing that seems guaranteed is a game that takes place in the old world.

 

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I think part of the reason for announcing so early is to let us all have this conversation and get it out of our system. 

A big part of gw's recent success has been their ability to diversify their product line.

When the lotr bubble burst gw supported just 3 game systems, so the implosion of one of them hurt gw a lot. 

Now they have 13 rulesets all getting continued support but some of those may be tailing off in the future. 

If we assume that new old Warhammer launches in the summer of 2023, by that time underworlds will have 50 warbands, all the heresy primarchs will be completed, every bloodbowl team with have a plastic kit, and maybe the lotr licence will have expired. 

Gw needs another product to pick up the slack. The old world is an obvious. It clearly still stirs up a lot of passion in people even 4 years after the end of 8th. 

Gw customers have shown that nostalgia is very profitable. 

I also think that in the long run it will heal the division between aos and old world fans. The single biggest complaint about AOS is that gw took the old world with its rank and file and lower fantasy setting away and gave them fantasy at its highest. I saw so many posts, asking why gw didn't just do AOS as an additional thing. Well now they are. 

As for the concerns about the future of AOS. Gw plainly said that AOS is their most successful fantasy game ever, more successful than fantasy at its most popular. 

That can easily be seen in the explosion in tournament numbers this year, the speed at which every AOS box set and special edition battletome sells out. 

Are all those people who rushed out to buy bonereapers suddenly going to throw them away? I doubt it. Instead those people who were sad that they weren't just renamed tomb kings now have something to look forward to. 

In that article they suggested they might be releasing new gargants and light Aelves soon, not to mention the already revealed slaves to darkness models. All those things will sell like hotcakes.AOS roleplay is coming out next year. This will give the background of AOS another shot in the arm.

 

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I prefer the Mortal Realms from a pure aesthetic and diversity standpoint, with regards to being able to theme any army in any way (e.g. Fire Skaven, Winter Sylvaneth, or whatever).

I prefer the Old World in terms of its lore, maps and characters, as the pseudo-historical, real-world basis of the finite OW makes is more relatable for me.

-----------------------

That said, I would prefer any Old World revisiting to be very distinct from AoS. In that regards, a new Mordheim, Man O' War and/or Warmaster would have been ideal for me, with Blood Bowl already being (sort of) Old World based.

Warmaster would be especially great, as it potentially scratches that rank and file "real war simulation" itch, with no chance of cross-contamination with AoS.

Warmaster could tell the Old World's big stories, while Mordheim tells the small stories.

If, however, it turns out to be a 28 mm large-scale battle game that pulls people in difference directions, I am not so sure that it is the right move on GW's part.

We need more detail in the form of a loose road-map, as many in the community are clearly a bit spooked by this announcement.

Edited by Kyriakin
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