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Much as I love the old world, it is pretty much a textbook example of the Orientalism inherent in designing fantasy counterpart cultures. By making the humans your baseline "standard" faction, an making other non human factions orbit them, and draw on different cultural influences you sort of inevitably get the problem where your humans are all say, medieval germans, and everyone else in the world are orcs, skeletons, etc. Its great that the other human factions of the old world are finally getting some love, and it would be great to see that there are sub saharan-african inspired human nations in the south lands along with the lizardmen and orcs.

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12 hours ago, Noserenda said:

As written, the Southlands is a three way battlefield between Lizardmen, Savage Orcs and Terrible racist caricatures  with the Odd rogue Tomb king unfortunately :(

There are non racist caricatures of southland humans in the lore. A black hedge wizard is part of the pirate crew in Abnett's fell cargo. Josh Reynolds first Gotrrk and Felix novel includes Southlanders Chaos worshippers and vampires, both of whom are drawn from cultures that were no more or less stereotypical than the Norscans.

I'm fairly certain WFRP 4th edition has some lore on the Southlands too.

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47 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

They are giving them skaven mechanics. I really don't like them adding more of those to the game.

Changing of the Ways is more like taking and expanding on High Elves' diplomacy mechanics - influencing Relations, line-of-sight shenanigans, etc. The Skaven Undercity mechanic was already robbed by Vampire Coast, of which the update to the former was based off the latter. Frankly, it would've been weirder if the expanded Chaos factions DIDN'T get Cult 'foreign building slots'.

And let's face it, Skaven have received so many mechanics on top of mechanics throughout 2's lifetime that some overlap was going to happen eventually. 

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22 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Changing of the Ways is more like taking and expanding on High Elves' diplomacy mechanics - influencing Relations, line-of-sight shenanigans, etc. The Skaven Undercity mechanic was already robbed by Vampire Coast, of which the update to the former was based off the latter. Frankly, it would've been weirder if the expanded Chaos factions DIDN'T get Cult 'foreign building slots'.

And let's face it, Skaven have received so many mechanics on top of mechanics throughout 2's lifetime that some overlap was going to happen eventually. 

I'm expecting Nurgle to double down on plagues, Slaanesh to mess up the game through corruption and get auto ambush, and Tzeench gets undercity-like cultists and the changer of ways mess.

I use a map editor to halve skaven starting locations already. I'll have to see if there is any fun to be had if chaos doubles down on the annoyance before I consider buying (and rats will still be there).

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56 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I'm expecting Nurgle to double down on plagues, Slaanesh to mess up the game through corruption and get auto ambush, and Tzeench gets undercity-like cultists and the changer of ways mess.

I use a map editor to halve skaven starting locations already. I'll have to see if there is any fun to be had if chaos doubles down on the annoyance before I consider buying (and rats will still be there).

It's easy to imagine Khorne having something very similar to Taurox's rampage and momentum mechanics. 

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@EccentricCircle¬†Agreed, as fun as the historical aspect can be, this is an unfortunate side effect. Specifically with reference to Lizardmen, I‚Äôve seen hobbyists from South America express ambivalence over the fact that (i) the South American stand-ins are badass technologically-advanced ultra warriors who were core to the background and deeply unimpressed with Estalian/Empire/whoever colonists and adventurers but also (ii) that they‚Äôre inhuman animal-people who draw a lot of inspiration from fundamentally racist ‚Äėancient alien‚Äô conspiracy thinking and used to have most their names based off of shoddy puns.

It’s a tricky one.

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5 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

Any chance that GW will make regiment trays that accommodate round bases or will I have to go 3rd party if I want to use my S2D in old world? 

Pretty unlikely if they stick with the old rules as adapted bases are bigger and that makes a significant difference mechanically. That said if they push for bigger square bases it could be dooable and would soften the blow of trying to rank minis up, or making boring minis to achieve it.

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On 10/17/2021 at 3:33 PM, EccentricCircle said:

Much as I love the old world, it is pretty much a textbook example of the Orientalism inherent in designing fantasy counterpart cultures. By making the humans your baseline "standard" faction, an making other non human factions orbit them, and draw on different cultural influences you sort of inevitably get the problem where your humans are all say, medieval germans, and everyone else in the world are orcs, skeletons, etc. Its great that the other human factions of the old world are finally getting some love, and it would be great to see that there are sub saharan-african inspired human nations in the south lands along with the lizardmen and orcs.

I disagree, why have humans everywhere in a fantasy setting? It makes no sense. They should make new races instead of adding extremely boring and racist factions like araby, nippon. 

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1 minute ago, Warfiend said:

I disagree, why have humans everywhere in a fantasy setting? It makes no sense. They should make new races instead of adding extremely boring and racist factions like araby, nippon. 

I'd argue the trick is to not make them racist. I absolutely see where you ar coming from though. The non human options are great, and I certainly don't want to lose them. It would just be good to have more diversity within each culture. 

this is I think one of the best things about the AoS setting. Any race can come from any realm, and there is no end of narrtive and hobby potential in that. It just takes a bit more work than the ready defined a relatable old world. The question s just, is it relatable to everyone?

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Hi there guys! just had a long convo in my LGS regarding the Old World. Seems like the main concern from most of the people there is that the Old World will be positioned as the 30k of AOS. I really have no idea what 30k is, but they're saying it's more expensive than playing 40k and models are more hard to buy since most of the models will be distributed or manufactured by Forge World. Do you also see it that way? any 30k player here wanna chime in? 

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48 minutes ago, Makyou said:

Hi there guys! just had a long convo in my LGS regarding the Old World. Seems like the main concern from most of the people there is that the Old World will be positioned as the 30k of AOS. I really have no idea what 30k is, but they're saying it's more expensive than playing 40k and models are more hard to buy since most of the models will be distributed or manufactured by Forge World. Do you also see it that way? any 30k player here wanna chime in? 

Well, it looks like the Old World will be part of Forge World as some rumours say.

To give a little inside. 30k's lore is 10,000 years before the lore of 40k, also called the "Horus Heresy" because it is the time where the Space Marine Legions had the war against each other because Horus switched sides to Chaos with halve of the legions. I think it was losely described in early 40k lore and because their own system distributed by Forgeworld fleshing out the lore of that time.

I think "the Old World" is described by some people as 30k of AoS because it is the lore that happened before the realms of AoS existed, the flaw with this description is that besides of some characters and Mallus, the core of the Old World, nothing of the old world really exists anymore, while the universe of 30k still exists in 40k with maybe some planets are destroyed.

I have the feeling, if we would get a game that would be placed at the end of the Age of Myth and the start of the age of Chaos fleshing out the lore their this would be the real 30k to Age of Sigmar because the realms would still be the same + the corruption and later take over of chaos (or failing of the Pantheon of Order) would have some similarities to the Horus Heresy.

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4 hours ago, Makyou said:

Hi there guys! just had a long convo in my LGS regarding the Old World. Seems like the main concern from most of the people there is that the Old World will be positioned as the 30k of AOS. I really have no idea what 30k is, but they're saying it's more expensive than playing 40k and models are more hard to buy since most of the models will be distributed or manufactured by Forge World. Do you also see it that way? any 30k player here wanna chime in? 

We know a few things about The Old World. The project is handled by the specialist games devision (Forgeworld). They want people to be able to play their old armies, but are trying to introduce new factions as well (Kislev) and bring back some discontinued ones (Brettonia).

Personally, I still have no idea how they can realistically pull this off. It seems impossible for Forgeworld to support all the old Warhammer Fantasy armies, model wise, especially since many of them were largely not composed of plastic miniatures. So this would necessitate either new plastic kits or a reissue of old kits, most likely in resin. But bringing back all these old models plus a bunch of new ones all at once would be a gigantic release, which I am not convinced is feasible from a production point of view.

The other option would be to support all armies with rules, but not models. There are several downsides to this, and GW does not generally do it. For one, it would suck for new players to get excited about the old world only to find out they can't actually play because GW is not selling models for their favourite faction. Perhaps a rotating release schedule might be possible (this week we are making Brettonia, next week we are making Tomb Kings, get them before they run out), but that's definitely not the most satisfying solution either.

Currently, the Old World is in the "hopes and dreams" stage, where we know the game is in the works, but have no idea how it will look. Personally, I think that the ultimate wish that a lot of people have, a new edition of Warhammer Fantasy with all classic factions fully supported and new ones added, seems impossible. But we will have to see what compromises end up being made.

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6 hours ago, Makyou said:

Hi there guys! just had a long convo in my LGS regarding the Old World. Seems like the main concern from most of the people there is that the Old World will be positioned as the 30k of AOS. I really have no idea what 30k is, but they're saying it's more expensive than playing 40k and models are more hard to buy since most of the models will be distributed or manufactured by Forge World. Do you also see it that way? any 30k player here wanna chime in? 

I think that @Neil Arthur Hotep and @EMMachine already explained everything about TOW. I just want to add how Warhammer 30k or Horus Heresy: Age of Darkness works.

------------------------------------hereIgo----------------------------------------

The game is based on 7th edition of Warhammer 40k, without following the main rules of Warhammer 40k (9th edition at this moment). The main rules are tweaked so it's not just a 1:1. You can find all basic rules in the main Rulebook:
 

Spoiler

FWPreview-Oct30-HHRulebook1jde.jpg

The main game is about Space Marines vs Space Marines (Legions). So, everybody is in the same ground (appart from some special guest, as Talons of the Emperor, Solar Auxilia or Mechanicum). That measn that there are 18 Space Marines Factions, and all of them can be played as Traitors and/or Loyalist.
That works really well because the balance is on the special rules for each legion/weapons or Rites of War, and not on units strength (that's not 100% true but you get the point). To pack all the rules, Horus Heresy has 2 books dedicated to Space Marines rules, one with all the special rules for each Legion (there are a few missing btw...) and the units that are shared by all the legions (that's 90% of them).

Spoiler

60040187052_AgeofDarknessArmyLists01.jpg60040187050_AgeofDarknessLegions01.jpg

Those books are the "Red Books", in other words, rules to play. There are a few more Red Books with rules for other non-Space Marines armies too but that's another story.
Note: there are a lof of units with rules but not models.

To follow the main (and ongoing) story, the game has Black Books. They are a bit diferent fro the Red Books. They have a lot of Lore and sometimes updated profiles/Legion Rules or even new Rites of War (imagine if rules for subfactions and warscroll battalions had a baby). The last one released was called Crusade, and it is the IX of this collection that talks about some wars between Night Lords and Dark Angels (with their rules, units, etc...).

Spoiler

60043087009_HH9BookLead.jpg

That's how the game works, but not how the game deals with miniatures. You can buy a lot of them from their Forgeworld webside (btw, some of them disappear for a few months or even a years to reappear later, magic!!), and they are really expensive:

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-AT/The-Horus-Heresy

But from time to time, GW release a Box based on the Horus Heresy timeline with cheap basic armies of infantry/walkers/whatever. We had two before and it seems that it will be another one at the end of the year:

Spoiler

The Horus Heresy: Betrayal at Calth | Board Game | BoardGameGeekThe Horus Heresy: Burning of Prospero | Board Game | BoardGameGeek

Both boxes pack two little armies that can be expanded in to any Space Marines Legion, giving you a good backbone for your army (burning of Prospero has two named characters, but whatever...). The other "special" units, as I said before, are expensive and most of the time, people just convert other units with some decorations and special weapons. Take in mind that the last rules even encourage people to convert their units, some of them don't even have miniatures! We can see some covnerted ones in the last free oficial rules/minicampaign:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/10/04/launch-a-daring-strike-into-the-heart-of-ultramar-with-the-night-lords/

Btw, every few weeks (or months?),  Forgeworld releases new/old units. The last one being the Sons of Horus Praetor (yep, a generic leader for the Big Man Legion!):

Spoiler

99853002308_SonsofHorusLegionPraetorLead.jpg

Not sure if it will help, but I'm a big fan of the Horus Heresy!

If TOW can take the best parts of the Age of Darkness, I think we will have a really good game!

Edited by Beliman
Grammar
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5 hours ago, EMMachine said:

Well, it looks like the Old World will be part of Forge World as some rumours say.

To give a little inside. 30k's lore is 10,000 years before the lore of 40k, also called the "Horus Heresy" because it is the time where the Space Marine Legions had the war against each other because Horus switched sides to Chaos with halve of the legions. I think it was losely described in early 40k lore and because their own system distributed by Forgeworld fleshing out the lore of that time.

I think "the Old World" is described by some people as 30k of AoS because it is the lore that happened before the realms of AoS existed, the flaw with this description is that besides of some characters and Mallus, the core of the Old World, nothing of the old world really exists anymore, while the universe of 30k still exists in 40k with maybe some planets are destroyed.

I have the feeling, if we would get a game that would be placed at the end of the Age of Myth and the start of the age of Chaos fleshing out the lore their this would be the real 30k to Age of Sigmar because the realms would still be the same + the corruption and later take over of chaos (or failing of the Pantheon of Order) would have some similarities to the Horus Heresy.

I see! I thought when GW released the statement that they would be making the Old world as AOS' 30k, it meant that it will surely be the same way they are handling that system as well. It may just mean that it's a time before the events of what is happening currently.

 

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

We know a few things about The Old World. The project is handled by the specialist games devision (Forgeworld). They want people to be able to play their old armies, but are trying to introduce new factions as well (Kislev) and bring back some discontinued ones (Brettonia).

Personally, I still have no idea how they can realistically pull this off. It seems impossible for Forgeworld to support all the old Warhammer Fantasy armies, model wise, especially since many of them were largely not composed of plastic miniatures. So this would necessitate either new plastic kits or a reissue of old kits, most likely in resin. But bringing back all these old models plus a bunch of new ones all at once would be a gigantic release, which I am not convinced is feasible from a production point of view.

The other option would be to support all armies with rules, but not models. There are several downsides to this, and GW does not generally do it. For one, it would suck for new players to get excited about the old world only to find out they can't actually play because GW is not selling models for their favourite faction. Perhaps a rotating release schedule might be possible (this week we are making Brettonia, next week we are making Tomb Kings, get them before they run out), but that's definitely not the most satisfying solution either.

Currently, the Old World is in the "hopes and dreams" stage, where we know the game is in the works, but have no idea how it will look. Personally, I think that the ultimate wish that a lot of people have, a new edition of Warhammer Fantasy with all classic factions fully supported and new ones added, seems impossible. But we will have to see what compromises end up being made.

Indeed! that's why a lot of people were arguing that it may be more expensive and "exclusive" than what I am accustomed to when I started, way back in 8th edition Warhammer fantasy. the anticipation and worry is killing me and it's still year/s away!

 

Thanks for the input guys!

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5 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I think that @Neil Arthur Hotep and @EMMachine already explained everything about TOW. I just want to add how Warhammer 30k or Horus Heresy: Age of Darkness works.

------------------------------------hereIgo----------------------------------------

The game is based on 7th edition of Warhammer 40k, without following the main rules of Warhammer 40k (9th edition at this moment). The main rules are tweaked so it's not just a 1:1. You can find all basic rules in the main Rulebook:
 

  Hide contents

FWPreview-Oct30-HHRulebook1jde.jpg

The main game is about Space Marines vs Space Marines (Legions). So, everybody is in the same ground (appart from some special guest, as Talons of the Emperor, Solar Auxilia or Mechanicum). That works really well because the balance is on the special rules and not on units strength (that's not 100% true but you get the point). To pack all the rules, Horus Heresy has 2 books, one with all the special rules for each Legion (appart from a few that were not developed at that time) and the units that share all the legions (that's 90% of them).

  Reveal hidden contents

60040187052_AgeofDarknessArmyLists01.jpg60040187050_AgeofDarknessLegions01.jpg

Those books are the "red books", in other words, rules to play. There are a few more Red Bookss with rules for other non-Space Marines armies too but that's another story.

To follow the main (and ongoing) story, the game has Black Books. they are a bit diferent fro the Red Books. They have a lot of Lore and sometimes updated profiles or even new Rites of War (imagine if rules for subfactions and warscroll battalions had a baby). The last one released was called Crusade, and it is the IX of this collection:

  Hide contents

60043087009_HH9BookLead.jpg

That's how the game works, but not how the game deals with miniatures. You can buy a lot of them from their Forgeworld webside (btw, some of them disappear for a few months or even a years to reappear later, magic!!), and they are really expensive. But from time to time, GW release a Box based on the Horus Heresy timeline with cheap basic armies of infantry/walkers/whatever. We had two before and it seems that it will be another one at the end of the year:

  Hide contents

The Horus Heresy: Betrayal at Calth | Board Game | BoardGameGeekThe Horus Heresy: Burning of Prospero | Board Game | BoardGameGeek

This box have two little armies that can be expanded in to any Space Marines Legion, giving you a good backbone for your army. The other "special" units, as I said before, are expensive and most of the time, people just convert other units with some decorations and special weapons. Take in mind that the last rules even encourage people to do convert units. We can see some of them in the last free rules/minicampaign that Forgeworld has released:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/10/04/launch-a-daring-strike-into-the-heart-of-ultramar-with-the-night-lords/

Btw, every few weeks (or months?),  Forgeworld releases new/old units. The last one being the Sons of Horus Praetor (yep, a generic leader for the Big Man Legion!):

  Hide contents

99853002308_SonsofHorusLegionPraetorLead.jpg

Not sure if it will help, but I'm a big fan of the Horus Heresy!

If TOW can take the best parts of the Age of Darkness, I think we will have a really good game!

Just when I thought I know a lot about GW. This is great man! Thanks for the quick rundown on what Horus Heresy is. The Forge World aspect is what makes me worry though. I checked that website and ooohh boy it ain't cheap. I really love the customization aspect of this hobby though. I just hope that reborn factions like Kislev or new Factions like Cathay (maybe) won't be a "timed" or exclusive release.

 

Thanks for the introduction to it! I might look into it more!

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7 minutes ago, Makyou said:

I see! I thought when GW released the statement that they would be making the Old world as AOS' 30k, it meant that it will surely be the same way they are handling that system as well. It may just mean that it's a time before the events of what is happening currently.

Basicly but in a strange way. If 30k to 40k would be similar to Old World to AoS the complete universe would have been destroyed between 30k and 40k and either a second Big Bang would have taken place, or the story would have been outside of the known universe. Thats the big difference. Except for the part that some people from the Old World became gods in AoS and Aelfen souls were eaten by Slaanesh during the endtimes and extrated in the age of Myth by the new Aelfen gods their is not really much left of the old lore.

AoS could be nearly the same if the Old World would never have existed (it was more a complete reboot), while the events of 30k are essential for the lore of 40k (the reason why Chaos Space Marines exist, why the empire became what it is etc.) + okay 40k existed first and GW filled the past later.

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The other game to compare things to is Lord of the Rings. Like HH really shows that the whole "GW only write rules for characters with models" isn't true at all when its not one of their flagship games. For the current edition there is a core rules manual, and then a big book of army stats for each of the Lord of the Rings era and the Hobbit era. Between them they listed every model which had ever been released for the game.

That was then followed up by a series of campaign books, each focusing on a specific part of the War of the Ring (E.g. Gondor, Rohan, the Scouring of the Shire).

All of the old plastic sprues are kept in production, as are enough of the resin and metal to form a core set for the most popular armies (Rohan, Gondor, Mordor, etc.) They then rotate the less popular armies (Dunland, Harad, the Shire etc) into and out of production so that they always support the areas they have covered in campaign books. Old metal heroes are gradually getting new plastic releases, and new heroes in forgeworld resin are coming out fairly regularly. There have been new plastic scenery kits pretty regularly, but we've not got new plastic troops fora  while. That said, the bases are largely covered at this point.

I really don't think it would be hard at all for them to give Old World a similar level of support. I absolutely think that they will be able to have rules for all of the classic factions, definitely within a couple of campaign book releases, but likely even in the first wave.

In terms of model support, there is already a lot of stuff they can draw on. Lets break down the old WFB factions into

Ready to go, just need some heroes appropriate to the era:

  • Warriors of Chaos (Mostly still out there as S2D)
  • Beasts of Chaos (All still in production as themselves)
  • Skaven (All still in production as themselves)
  • Lizardmen (All still in production as Seraphon)
  • Ogre Kingdoms (All still in production as mawtribes)
  • Dark Elves (Almost all still in production as part of CoS)
  • The Empire (Almost all still in Cities, but might need an update to match the aesthetic of the earlier era, if Dawnbringers are coming, expect there to be Crossover potential!)
  • High Elves (Half the Lumineth range is usable as updated High Elves)
  • Vampire Counts (Half the Soulblight range is usable as updated VC)
  • Night Goblins (Half the Gloomspite range is usable as updated Night Goblins)

Still have a core of models, but would benefit from more variety

  • Wood Elves (Still a few in Cities, and half of Sylvaneth covers the tree spirits, mostly. New Glade Guard, Ariel and Orion, and Tree kin, and you'd basically be there. I could see that and a few other shiny things coming with a "battle for Athel Loren campaign book, and us being done!)
  • Dwarfs (They still have a core of stuff in cities, but are missing enough that they would need a fairly big release to cover the gaps. You can't really use fyreslayers as slayers, we need thunderers, quarellers, regular dwarfs, and of course heroes, if dispossessed are coming, expect there to be crossover potential!)
  • Savage Orcs (You could make the case for expanding bonesplitters and making a more solid Savage Orcs army at the same time, but they were always a subfaction anyway, so I don't think its that likely they'd get devoted support)

Can't really use anything currently on sale, so would need a rerelease:

  • Tomb Kings (None of the current undead really fit, but you could put the Sphynx, Snake and Tomb Guard kits back into production, and then you'd basically just need skeleton archers and some updated chariots. Since we've not got skelly archers in soulblight there could even be some crossoever potential there if they did a Nu-lamia update paired with an updated Tomb Kings release.)
  • Chaos Dwarfs (but there are all those rumours right? I'd expect that if they do come, half the range will match their old loadout while the other half with be realms-y like the elves and vampires.)
  • Brettonia (This is the first big one. Like Tomb Kings they have a lot of old kits, but I feel like fewer hold up, and would be likely to be rereleased as is. I think that a Kislev style campaign/expansion where they really update and expand them would be sure to get them brownie points with the diehard fanbase though. I could see it being one of the earlier campaigns. Until then though people can probably muddle through with old models or knights and peasants from other manufacturers. Somewhere a GW accountant would be crying, but the fanbase would be ok.)
  • Orcs and Goblins (This is the other really big gap in the line, and in my opinion the most important one. We could get by without Bretonians or even my beloved Tomb Kings until such time as they saw fit to do an expansion centred on them. Classic orcs and goblins though as such a central threat to the old world that I think they would have to do something with them. Again I'm not sure that the old kits hold up too well, and its not long since they were phased out. Unlike the other recently updated armies Kruleboyz just don't replicate the classic army. so wouldn't be usable as proxies I don't think. We've not heard much about orcs in the previews so far, but if I had to pick a faction to be invading Kislev in the starter set, its they and not chaos whom I would choose.)

    So there you have it. All three Chaos factions already have pretty good support, as do High Elves and possibly The Empire, who were always the other most popular hero factions. It would take a few solid releases to get full coverage, but not out of step with the kind of support blood bowl or necromunda gets, averaged over a year or two.
Edited by EccentricCircle
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