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Gareth ūüćĄ

Warhammer - The Old World

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Just now, Overread said:

Don't forget AoS at launch was resoundly trashed by wargamers at large and wasn't selling well. That's not to devalue and say that those who DID like it then are bad or wrong; just that they represented a smaller market than GW wanted. Plus GW alienated a big chunk of their market at the same time. 

Though still a bigger market than Wfb was offering that made AoS sell betterin it's first year. xD

"40k/30k basically held the line for all of GW in the last few years, since AoS, and before that Warhammer Fantasy. In last year's annual report, the CEO let slip a point that AoS, despite its unpopularity, had already outdid Warhammer Fantasy's sales for years, just to show how bad things had been. "

With the new direction though Old World definitely has better odds at success than Wfb did. It'll be a fitting new game to move to  for many old fans.

 

But regardless you're correct in a bright future ahead with 3 great fantasy games from GW (4 if you count Bloodbowl ;) )

 

Edited by Baron Klatz
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Go back far enough and Old World sales were greater than 40K's at one time. Remember 40K was spawned from the Old World sorta, though my understanding of the deep histories is hazy. 

 

But yes AoS is doing great and has gone from strength to strength, especially over the last few years with 2.0. It's been a rough ride by no mistake, but its one we are near the end of. Seraphon will be out soon and that marks the full release of AoS 2.0 for all existing forces. Plus we've at least TWO new armies that we know of coming this year - one aelf, one giants; not to mention whatever else GW has cooked up for us! Honestly I'd say that right now its a second golden age for GW and gaming - specialist games are back; both the fantasy and sci fi big names are doing well; armies are getting outstanding new models! 

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10 hours ago, Overread said:

I can't imagine FW even trying to do a rank and file game in resin - it would be a disaster for them in terms of trying to meed production demand. Plastic is an ideal material for mass battle systems and GW has the resources and facilities to cast plastic. Plus this is going to be a pretty major release for them, perhaps bigger tahn the other specialist games. Necromunda, AT etc... are not only much older (some of the market has moved on), but they are also very low model count games per customer and they've been done in plastic. If GW is going to do rank and file with perhaps 30 or 40 models per unit then plastic is the only sane way to do it .

I‚Äôm¬†really curious for rank and file actually. I‚Äôd be all over a lower model count rank and file game set in a ‚Äúhistorical fantasy‚ÄĚ world. Having flanking matter seems cool.

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4 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

Though still a bigger market than Wfb was offering that made AoS sell betterin it's first year. xD

"40k/30k basically held the line for all of GW in the last few years, since AoS, and before that Warhammer Fantasy. In last year's annual report, the CEO let slip a point that AoS, despite its unpopularity, had already outdid Warhammer Fantasy's sales for years, just to show how bad things had been. "

With the new direction though Old World definitely has better odds at success than Wfb did. It'll be a fitting new game to move to  for many old fans.

 

But regardless you're correct in a bright future ahead with 3 great fantasy games from GW (4 if you count Boodbowl ;) )

 

I mean even LoTR sold better then fantasy when it initially came out, it wasn’t exactly a high goal post to reach to outsell fantasy.

also AoS selling like trash initially is wrong. The initial wave was very successful financially because the Stormcast and Khorne design brought newer people into the hobby. Haters and  rule tight wargamers would say differently but there where drove of new hobbyists since it was a cool new thing to get into

Edited by novakai
mobile autocorrect is terrible sometimes
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Exactly. If you go back to Runebrush's open day talk on this thread you'll know that's why the GW devs said "you can't take what you see online at face value". Age of Sigmar may have been a huge upset for the dying old community but the hobby places online like reddit and dakkadakka were booming with new players.

Like the Wfb reddit at the time was 8 years old and only had 3,000 subs by 2016, AoS had 4,500 in one year and now in five it's grown past 43,000.

Not to go off-topic but it's part of why I wish people would stop dissing on AoS1 (besides the fact i loved it as a narrative nut). It had a rocky start but it still was a success, helped integrate old players, made it extremely easy for new players to hobby giving them complete freedom to build their armies and laid the groundwork for the lore that they kept building on to make the fantastic setting we have now that keeps on expanding all the time for the glorious Mortal Realms. :D

Just now, Ggom said:

I‚Äôm¬†really curious for rank and file actually. I‚Äôd be all over a lower model count rank and file game set in a ‚Äúhistorical fantasy‚ÄĚ world. Having flanking matter seems cool.

I feel lower count is gonna be a big appeal. Since AoS  that's been a huge focus of GW and hobby games overall to help lower entry barriers and keep games quick and fast.

 

 

Edited by Baron Klatz
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Here's a question when did the Empire first develope black powder weapons? I feel like the Dwarfs had them first (and it would make sense if Cathay did too). Either way, if the historical eras they explore end up being set before guns become widespread then an empire army could look very different to what we're familiar with.

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15 minutes ago, EccentricCircle said:

Here's a question when did the Empire first develope black powder weapons? I feel like the Dwarfs had them first (and it would make sense if Cathay did too). Either way, if the historical eras they explore end up being set before guns become widespread then an empire army could look very different to what we're familiar with.

From warhammer wiki :

1991: Gunpoweder is introduced to the fractured Empire by their dwarf allies. Wizard's War is ended.

So if it is set in early age of three emperors:  yes ,empire could be differrent.

Someone says that Sigismund herald shield  shown on revealed map could be Emperor Sigismund IV who lived around 1700 . 

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They could potentially jump the timeline ahead at some point, introducing rules for human wizards and cannons etc in subsequent supplements

 

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4 hours ago, Jefferson Skarsnik said:

They could potentially jump the timeline ahead at some point, introducing rules for human wizards and cannons etc in subsequent supplements

 

Possibly. They could make a FW Black Book for Siege of Praag or Battle at the Gates of Kislev. And then other books for War of Vengeance, Invasion of Ulthuan etc...

EDIT: Oh, if we want more clan-specific units and plastic acoly...sorry globadiers - Skaven Civil War!

Edited by michu
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when did  Leonardo da Miragliano set up the Imperial Engineers School? I think it was around 2000.

without gunpowder or engineers, how different is the empire going to be?

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22 minutes ago, Turin Turambar said:

when did  Leonardo da Miragliano set up the Imperial Engineers School? I think it was around 2000.

without gunpowder or engineers, how different is the empire going to be?

Age of Three Emperors lasted up to year 2304, so they could make "warscrolls" for gunpowder weapons. There could be just battleplans about battles happening in earlier years that state - "As gunpowder weapons weren't common in Empire before  year ~2000 you can't add handgunners, cannons, steam tanks etc. to your army list".

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On 2/9/2020 at 2:03 AM, novakai said:

I mean even LoTR sold better then fantasy when it initially came out, it wasn’t exactly a high goal post to reach to outsell fantasy.

also AoS selling like trash initially is wrong. The initial wave was very successful financially because the Stormcast and Khorne design brought newer people into the hobby. Haters and  rule tight wargamers would say differently but there where drove of new hobbyists since it was a cool new thing to get into

LotR was a massive bubble that saw a huge influx of pennies for GW but that bubble burst post-RotK and it burst HARD. The LotR playerbase pretty much evaporated overnight and I say this as someone who's holds onto the belief that LotR was far and away GW's best gaming system (outside of the Specialist Games anyway). 

Talk to pretty much any LFGS owner about AoS' launch and they'll tell you that the original starter boxes were gathering dust. Remember GW - see: Kirby - were so proud about having a game without any of those silly point values and even more eye wateringly eye prices than you could believe (remember Fyreslayers? Compare their Hero and Vulkite prices to pretty much every equivalent afterwards). There's a reason that the General's Handbook appeared a year later and it's not because people were enamoured with AoS.

Is it in a good place now? Yes, but let's not pretend it could have gone anywhere but down had Rountree & Friends not grabbed hold of the wheel. Remember that pretty much everything GW was selling like trash - even 40k - between 2014 and 2016 given things like X-Wing were taking the top spot and GW was haemorrhaging money more and more.

Nothing's done better for GW's health than not making a total mess of 8th edition's launch will then spilled over onto AoS. One thing GW has in it's chamber is an exceptionally loyal, some might say beaten, fanbase who'll gladly give them a second (third, forth, fifth, sixth) chance. Already we're seeing people talking about dropping Kings of War and ASoI&F despite all GW has done for no other reason than 'it's Games Workshop'. 8th 40k saw a massive influx of new and returning players who inevitably turned their eye to the 'fantasy' game that was actually supported.

Edited by Clan's Cynic
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Yep. Lets not forget Kirby wasn't all evil, in fact in his early days he turned the company's finances around in a major way. From what I recall they'd got into a bit of a mess and he worked out a pathway through. 

I just think that as time went on his style of management wasn't he right one for GW. He was far too isolated from the customer and product and, I think, too focused on the costs, finances and share values. One gets the feeling he'd read into a lot of the electronic market patterns and sales styles. Hence lots of short term products; lots of quick return investments and also having more of a "we tell you what you want" rather than "we will listen to what you want" attitude toward the customer. 

There was also some element of not liking the established customer and focusing on the new customer far too much. Again patterns we see in a lot of big electronic companies who only care if you're currently buying the latest from them; otherwise you're not worth their attention. With a continual drive toward getting new customers and not worrying about retaining old ones.

 

 

Things that just don't work for a wargame market. Especially when at the local and game club level the established customer is the one helping recruit, train, play and often organise groups for the new customers to get into. GW isn't "AS" reliant on this as other firms in the market because GW does have its own stores; but its still a key element. That old customer who only buys the odd model and has 20K of marines - sure they aren't buying much from you today but they ARE marketing your game heavily and they are playing newbies and providing games etc... Turn them away and they can take your newbies with them. 

What was also interesting was how GW had shied away from event organising and social media. I feel as if their earlier experiments in both (esp the website forum which, from what I gather, burned in the fires of trolling and chaos and bad moderation) burned them so much they withdrew entirely and gave up. IT was curious to see PP and many other geeky markets erupting into social media and esports when GW - who were technically doing "geek sports" before any of them and who were in a prime position to carry it all forward in a big way; were pulling back and shying away from it all. 

 

In the end I think that he simply outgrew his position, although there were a few oddities such as the huge amount paid for their website to his wifes company. I think some of the customer base did get the impression that he was getting into a "gouge the company" pattern for whatever he could. That a shift in management and attitude caused shares to skyrocket beyond what Kirby could have managed was a clear sign that he'd lost his way and it was time for a fresh face and fresh ideas and approaches. 

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On 2/9/2020 at 4:19 PM, michu said:

Age of Three Emperors lasted up to year 2304, so they could make "warscrolls" for gunpowder weapons. There could be just battleplans about battles happening in earlier years that state - "As gunpowder weapons weren't common in Empire before  year ~2000 you can't add handgunners, cannons, steam tanks etc. to your army list".

I don't think they're going to sick by the history they have written in the existing lore very much. I mean, you want to have a game centered around four different Imperial armies, what do people know about the Empire? Gunpowder and halberds, tights and funny hats. If you set them in an era where they look more like 14th Century Imperial armies than 16th Century, you're gonna have many people crosseyed. I understand why they won't necessarily go gunpowder-free or kick back one step the tech level (and fashion choices).

As for the game style, I'm also very curious about the mini count and regimental style. Apocalypse is, in my opinion, the tightest game GW has ever published. It's massive, it's fun, it's fast, it's not overly long and it's very functional. I hope they go that route. Movement trays for units and massive games of tactical positioning. All without the *honestly* exhausting system in old WHFB where pivoting a unit was equivalent to losing a turn.

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What a silent place we have here for a while. So I'll feel free to share something I've been thinking.

It is my opinión that this (hopefully marvellous) Old World is something greatly impulsed by the Total War success, and there you can see how some characters have a different look related to their classic counterpart , beign Snikch the DeathMaster a clear example.

I believe it is very feasible the Special Characters miniatures reflect this New looks rather than the classic ones. 

What do you think?

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Posted (edited)
On 2/10/2020 at 5:20 AM, Clan's Cynic said:

Talk to pretty much any LFGS owner about AoS' launch and they'll tell you that the original starter boxes were gathering dust.

I remember when when the the original AoS starter box was selling for as low as $50-$60 on Amazon with games stores trying to off load stock. My local shop didn't entirely drop AoS, but once the old fantasy stock was sold the AoS stock took up a small rack on what was a whole wall that WHFB had and now the rest of the space was taken up by a variety of other games. Of course after the GHB, the starter set prices went back up, and at my local shop AoS shelf space slowly expanded and has finally retaken the former WHFB wall. 

Edited by bsharitt

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There will be an update about Warhammer: The Old World on Warhammer Community this week As said yesterday on " this week video" on WarCom ( most probably before Adepticon reveals)

I think with all the worlwide mess of coronavirus GW will try to keep hype high and entertain us on those strange and unpredicted pandemia days

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I hope they'll tell us more about the shape of this new game. Are we on a skirmish game (I doubt it but we like playing mordheim in my game group)? Or rank and flank battle game ? (If I understood well the setting which is the period of the 4 emperors and I'm very excited at the prospect of seeing new Empire miniatures appearing. But will the first release be exclusively human? I know some people who will complain. Even if I would be delighted to have new potential freeguild minis releases :D

For the Empire !

 

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1 hour ago, Sance said:

I hope they'll tell us more about the shape of this new game. Are we on a skirmish game (I doubt it but we like playing mordheim in my game group)? Or rank and flank battle game ? (If I understood well the setting which is the period of the 4 emperors and I'm very excited at the prospect of seeing new Empire miniatures appearing. But will the first release be exclusively human? I know some people who will complain. Even if I would be delighted to have new potential freeguild minis releases :D

For the Empire !

A Necromunda/Mordheim type game works better in the smaller Old World. One can hope.

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1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

A Necromunda/Mordheim type game works better in the smaller Old World. One can hope.

On the other hand, there are already a lot of those smaller games. Even though, to be honest, so far none that really ticks my Mordheim/oldschool itch. 
 

But then again, I‚Äôm a dinosaur. ūüėĄ

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22 minutes ago, Beastmaster said:

On the other hand, there are already a lot of those smaller games. Even though, to be honest, so far none that really ticks my Mordheim/oldschool itch. 
 

But then again, I‚Äôm a dinosaur. ūüėĄ

Well, Warcry was advertised as a Kill Team for AoS, so there is room for a Necromunda for AoS (though we do already know that a Horus Heresy for AoS is more likely.

I think the chances of a Mordheim revival in the old world are not that good, if I were in GW's shoes, I'd try to tie that type of game to the Mortal Realms (like I tie most new options to newer versions of software, but do sometimes roll out essential productivity or security improvements to older versions). Then you'd have a scaling option from RPG to AoS Necromunda/Mordheim to Warcy to AoS. A sourcebook and rulescards for the Old World units would be enough to also give them the option (though these may be easily cooked up by the players as well).

There are a lot of skirmish games, but keep in mind that these exist because people like playing that scale of games.

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For people that think W: Old World will be a skirmish game:

No, it won't. Mostly because of that simple reason that GW clearly want it to be a spirit successor to WFB for old WFB players that don't want to play AoS. And they consider it a 30k for AoS. None of those games are skirmishes. But don't worry, looks like W:Old World is set exactly in times when Mordheim cataclism happened. So there is a chance that after W:OW release will see new version of Mordheim.

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1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

Well, Warcry was advertised as a Kill Team for AoS, 

Was it?  I know it was received by the community as such, and surely that's what they had in mind.  But "Kill Team for AoS" doesn't sound like a very GW-ish thing to come right out and say (please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - I'm only going on memory here). 

Like, the community received Stormcasts as Space Marines for AoS, but I don't think they were advertised as such by any stretch, even though that's at least partly what they had in mind.

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4 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

Was it?  I know it was received by the community as such, and surely that's what they had in mind.  But "Kill Team for AoS" doesn't sound like a very GW-ish thing to come right out and say (please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - I'm only going on memory here). 

Like, the community received Stormcasts as Space Marines for AoS, but I don't think they were advertised as such by any stretch, even though that's at least partly what they had in mind.

You're right, it weren't. It was advertised as being made by people that worked on Underworlds and Kill Team. TBH Warcry is more a game half-way between KT and Necromunda.

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