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Gareth ūüćĄ

Warhammer - The Old World

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39 minutes ago, Cèsar de Quart said:

This is two very European looking heraldic designs and two very strange choices, the overdetailed face of a bearded god, and something with a fish tail I can't even picture. You're telling me this is consistent?

That face is a depiction of the god Taal. The blazon is pretty detailed but it could very well be an established symbol in the world of Warhammer. Taal is commonly shown as a bearded man with wild hair and antlers.  It could easily described as "Or, a head of Taal vert"

Also, bearded heads already exist in heraldry. 

200px-Complete_Guide_to_Heraldry_Fig253.png.440eb90d67b6f8ee965cc5ebf6fe9025.png

The second is a mermaid. The established symbol of Marienburg.

burg1.PNG.290c3353a44394a3ae9d4ba6ee1687e9.PNG

Maybe it was just custom at the time to draw her with a split tail (which is also a thing that exists in real life). 

Yes, im telling you the designs themselves are consistent with the world of Warhammer Fantasy.

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5 hours ago, michu said:

L

Edit, bad connection makes double posts

Edited by zilberfrid

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5 hours ago, michu said:

And Land Riders models are too small for 10 Marines to be inside them. It's not about accuracy, it's about creating an illusion. For me it works.

For me it doesn't. I can accept Kharadron ships that do not really fit the scale, a humanoid figure that cannot do basic humanoid stuff (spikes on the inside of the knee makes more than waddling next to impossible, spikes on the shoulder as well as neck make using arms basically impossible, still Lord Relictor).

Similar to the 2d chamon human, that has a getup that would make breaking necks easier than seeing where you're stepping.

It could be a limit in my imagination, but then, I earn my bread and plastic largely with with creativity. It could also just be bad design.

I hope TOW will tone down the rediculousness, and go towards something that will physically be plausible.

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All this fuss over heraldry. Jeez. Empire heraldry has never been consistent with real world rules,  nor should it be. 
 

Cesar, I suggest you get the uniforms and heraldry of the empire book. It might drive you insane, but empire heraldry has always been this over-the-top, if not worse. 

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 [Cynical Hat]

Regardless...if they are "revealing" things this early despite allegedly being 3 years out, I cannot help but think that all of this is just a ruse to persuade old players against buying into competitors' wargames ...

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8 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

I hope TOW will tone down the rediculousness, and go towards something that will physically be plausible.

IMO, you are going from white to black. And Fantasy was more about grey and I hope that they stay with that. 

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42 minutes ago, Beliman said:

IMO, you are going from white to black. And Fantasy was more about grey and I hope that they stay with that. 

I'm not exactly sure what you mean.

I mean that everyone has their triggers for disbelief. Mine are mostly about arms and armour, and about half of what was made for AoS triggers that (though I like the Lumineth), in comparison to just sometimes the weapon size for empire or bretonnia.

You might trigger on hexapodal vertebrates with a largely tetrapodal body plan, which makes dragons and griffins impossible.

If GW makes believable looking figures in one line, and superhero comic figures in the other, I know where my expansion will come from.

You might be better served with AoS, no judgement there, but I hope they will cater to those ignored in AoS styling instead of using the same design language in both games.

Edited by zilberfrid
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14 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

I mean that everyone has their triggers for disbelief. Mine are mostly about arms and armour, and about half of what was made for AoS triggers that (though I like the Lumineth), in comparison to just sometimes the weapon size for empire or bretonnia.

I thing that we are talking about the same.

Fantasy wasn't just another historical game with some magic. Even if the first book is just empire vs empire vs empire vs empire with some Chaos/ Orcs/ Vampires in the last page of the book, I would still want to see (for example) Dinos riding Dinos (even if any elf or a saurus couldn't ride any Cold Ones) in a Lustria  campaign book.  Don't get me wrong, Empire (even with the robo-horse and some steam tanks) and French dudes (with pegasus with "wings" that shouldn't fly) should be made like you said but let everything else be designed like it was before.

Edited by Beliman
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speaking of changes, basically every edition made changes to the look of an army, sometimes minor, sometimes major. what do you suppose the chances for various levels of changes are?

sisters of battle, eldar banshees, and chaos warriors would suggest very minor to no changes. but we are also looking at an earlier/different time period which should cause changes as fashion and technologies would be different. plus a divided empire would have a different ecconomy, and other conditions so atleast for empire its logical to have changes even if the orginal models are still cannon for Karl France's reign. 

also how different would you gies want the stuff to be? 

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5 hours ago, Hashut said:

All this fuss over heraldry. Jeez. Empire heraldry has never been consistent with real world rules,  nor should it be. 
Cesar, I suggest you get the uniforms and heraldry of the empire book. It might drive you insane, but empire heraldry has always been this over-the-top, if not worse. 

It has been consistent with itself. I have read (looked at, better said) the heraldry of the empire book from cover to cover, and it is consistent. But more than that, it is firmly rooted in the heraldic traditions of the 15-16th Century.

It is consistent BECAUSE they chose to base it off strongly on this design tradition. Again, you can have your own original cohesive designs, but mixing up styles doesn't help. I think the Taal head is too overdesigned, too 1800's with a sprinkle of fantasy thrown in, when you compare it to the wolf, which would not look out of place in the 13th Century. As for the mermaid, I still can't really distinguish its features. I know it's a merdmaid, It's Marienburg, but still...

Another reason I dislike the bearded tree is that we already had a symbol for Taal which was quite unique and representative of Talabecland: the oaktree. I don't see the bearded head of Taal as a better option, but what do I know?

Edited by Cèsar de Quart

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I wonder if Old World is going to follow the recent trend of certain models being produced in plastic, like in Necromunda, Adeptus Titanicus and Blood Bowl despite them being mainly handled by Forge World.

For the Empire line at least, a good chunk of the kits are still being sold thanks to Cities of Sigmar.

Maybe if the first book is War of the Three Emperors, to start an army from scratch you buy a Freeguild kit and a Forge World upgrade sprue to make them more inline with what Emperor your army is supporting. Sprinkle in some Forge World resin models for heroes and Fantasy units that did not survive the culling.

Of course it becomes more difficult when Forge World starts covering armies that are no longer with us, but maybe the core units will get plastic release like Orc Boys and Boar Boys while Wyverns and Gorband Ironclaw stay resin for instance.

Just a thought I had when looking at what Forge World had being doing lately.

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I can't imagine FW even trying to do a rank and file game in resin - it would be a disaster for them in terms of trying to meed production demand. Plastic is an ideal material for mass battle systems and GW has the resources and facilities to cast plastic. Plus this is going to be a pretty major release for them, perhaps bigger tahn the other specialist games. Necromunda, AT etc... are not only much older (some of the market has moved on), but they are also very low model count games per customer and they've been done in plastic. If GW is going to do rank and file with perhaps 30 or 40 models per unit then plastic is the only sane way to do it .

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I'm sure one of the reasons for the multi-year timeline is to allow for the shiny new Lenton plastic factory to get up and running.

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Just out of curiosity, does anyone know the badge still in her hand in the second picture?

Oops, just realised it's probably a paint pot.

Edited by Aelfric

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Have we had confirmation of the scale? I'm still holding out hope (I know, 1st step on the road to disappointment) for 6mm epic scale (but NOT NOT NOT the abominable Warmaster concept of play).

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The only confirmed info we've got is

 

1) The map shown a few days ago

2) The title logo

3) That "its a game which will be to fantasy what Horus Heresy is to 40K"

4) We saw a regular 28-35mm square base on the marketing with the title logo. 

Right now we've no reason to think that it won't be the same scale as before (or so similar it makes little practical difference)

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On 2/8/2020 at 9:51 AM, Overread said:

Right now we've no reason to think that it won't be the same scale as before (or so similar it makes little practical difference)

That's really disappointing to me. I was sad/full of rage when WFB got killed for AoS, and as much as I ended up liking the new system, it took a long while to let WFB go.

I didn't rebase my old armies, and still have many thousands of painted Warhammer Fantasy models, so it's not like it would be hard for me to jump back in to the old stuff, but it would feel somehow off to me. This old companion was shot and put in a grave. Sad, but we move on. If the "new" game is just the old game with a new coat of paint, it will have me constantly wondering why we had to go through the pain in the first place and why I have put so much into a new game that I'll likely ditch for the old game. 

Dunno. Seems like a real let down if it's not truly new and different. A scale change would be just the thing. Think of the sprawling sieges you could fight at that 6mm scale! Wow!

Edited by Sleboda
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I'd love a 6mm nad wanted too, but never got into Warmaster. Thing is GW is likely going to go for the same scale to appeal to the nostalgia market. 

 

The other issue is that 5-15mm games are a really big niche market. The vast majority that aren't historical re-enactment are really tiny markets, often supported by one or two guys with casting units in their sheds level of production. Small scale not big scale. I think GW today could do better and I'd love to see it appear. I do agree that thigns like sieges work much better with those scales because you can have big towers, walls and towns and fit them onto a table and put down a lot of models. 

With 28-35mm you get practical limitations. You can do an "apoc" scaled game, but its very slow and very big and often requires multiple players and can lack in tactics somewhat and more end up "everything runs forward. It's not devoid of fun, its just a different type and much more involved. Whilst with 15mm or 6mm you can carry an army in a bag and the terrain and play it out in a sensible time frame.

Heck I've backed the Battle Valor game Kickstarter and hope to start some of that if I can. Get high detailed 15mm models for fantasy. 

If Warmaster or AoS Warmaster appeared I'd be all over it, but I dont' think we'll see either of those games from GW for a very very long time and perhaps only if they get Epic to work again for 40K (which in itself is probably a decade off at best considering that AT hasn't even got a single Xenos titan yet)

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5 hours ago, Sleboda said:

If the "new" game is just the old game with a new coat of paint, it will have me constantly wondering why we had to go through the pain in the first place and why I have put so much into a new game that I'll likely ditch for the old game. 

You already know the answer. We are talking about a product and  a product can't "die", it is killed by the people that run's it (with everything known beforehand). Simple as that.

Why go throw the End Times to blow the whole setting? Because Kirby direction. Why AoS with meme rules? Because Kirby direction again. And we all know what happened next. Kirby was kicked.

Edited by Beliman
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6 hours ago, Harpo2 said:

I wonder if Old World is going to follow the recent trend of certain models being produced in plastic, like in Necromunda, Adeptus Titanicus and Blood Bowl despite them being mainly handled by Forge World.

For the Empire line at least, a good chunk of the kits are still being sold thanks to Cities of Sigmar.

Maybe if the first book is War of the Three Emperors, to start an army from scratch you buy a Freeguild kit and a Forge World upgrade sprue to make them more inline with what Emperor your army is supporting. Sprinkle in some Forge World resin models for heroes and Fantasy units that did not survive the culling.

Of course it becomes more difficult when Forge World starts covering armies that are no longer with us, but maybe the core units will get plastic release like Orc Boys and Boar Boys while Wyverns and Gorband Ironclaw stay resin for instance.

Just a thought I had when looking at what Forge World had being doing lately.

I think we can expect Specialist studio to make the main core game with plastic miniatures and FW to do add-ons in resin.

I think  it will be 28mm scale exactly as old WHFB (with limited factions and models ranges) and i believe that narrative side of game will be very important with books and campaigns.

Edited by cyrus

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8 hours ago, Cèsar de Quart said:

I don't see the bearded head of Taal as a better option, but what do I know?

What's up with your obsession with "better? They weren't trying to make better heraldry, just new one. And why it use different depiction of Taal? Well, it's not coat of arms of Talabecland but of (self-proclaimed) emperor Ludwig XII. In real life lion rampant also looks differently on different coats of arms. That's nothing new or bad.

 

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Just now, Sleboda said:

it will have me constantly wondering why we had to go through the pain in the first place and why I have put so much into a new game that I'll likely ditch for the old game. 

Because the old game was a failing mainline product that hurt the company in both the millions it cost them with only a 5% profit and it's generic designs were easy to rip-off by the likes of Avatars of War.

That game is dead and buried. Wfb is no more.

Old World is a brand new game and setting that is built off the success of Age of Sigmar. 

There's no telling what will happen with scale but with the game set in such a human-focused civil war of crossbows and catapults with the colleges of magic not even set-up yet it's gonna be a very different beast compared to what high fantasy Wfb was. Way more low fantasy while AoS is what people can play for epic fantasy goodness.

More importantly as a specialist sidegame there's no financial risk anymore like there was with Wfb. If it does badly they can just drop it.

Edited by Baron Klatz
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26 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Old World is a brand new game and setting that is built off the success of Age of Sigmar. 

No offense to you, but is it? How do you know? According to what is posted above, we have not been told it's a new setting or that it's connected to AoS at all. In fact, everything indicates it's the old setting and maybe even old concepts (squares).

Do you have info we don't have?

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Oh no no, I meant the financial and community boosting success of Age of Sigmar.

If GW's profits weren't skyrocketing like they have been then they never would've attempted this when they already have so many projects and specialist games on their plate already. xD

It's definitely the old setting but by "new setting" I meant not the one Wfb set up with crazy high fantasy and even 40k elements leaking in since 7th edition(greenskin spores off Old One starvessels & high elf soul stones to hide from Slaanesh)

Old World is looking to be a much simpler setting in comparison. Human focused with a few fantasy races on the sidelines. Like at that point most of the Old World didn't even know what an elf was until Finubar opened up relations some time later!

More that the setting looks to be at it's Lord of the Rings roots. (Maybe even in scale,  but we'll see).

Edited by Baron Klatz

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Don't forget Old World sales also increased when GW started the End Times event. Old World was a dying duck mostly because GW was missmanaging it and their community and customer relations at the time. GW was making mistakes and not really listening to their consumer base which was part of why Old World was on the down.

AoS was a management driven idea that had some good points ,but even that made massive changes and sparked a massive management change at GW. Don't forget AoS at launch was resoundly trashed by wargamers at large and wasn't selling well. That's not to devalue and say that those who DID like it then are bad or wrong; just that they represented a smaller market than GW wanted. Plus GW alienated a big chunk of their market at the same time. 

Right now though we are approaching a time when GW might have two great games run at the same time in fantasy - 3 if you also include Lord of the Rings. That's a great thing and we should be really happy that GW is listening to the market, to customers and providing options and ideas and bringing back a game that people did and continue to love with great passion. Dont' forget AoS is only 5 or so years old. Old World was closer to 30 and many gamers didn't just fall into it, they grew up with it. 

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