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Gareth 🍄

Warhammer - The Old World

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1 hour ago, Ggom said:

Sorry to keep waving the Heresy flag, but 30k has a distinct aesthetic actually. A lot of 30k players find the 40k aesthetic too “busy.” Compare for instance the 30k grey slayers forgeworld kit and the 40k grey hunters - the former goes heavier on runes and has much less “wolfy everything” and the heads are all more sculpted to look more serious (leather masks, braided hair) whereas 40k has mohawks and wolf heads on everything, and things tend to look a bit more cartoony.

It’s less true now with the move to different sculptors, but 3 years ago Heresy was very much distinct and you could easily identify the FW sculpts from the GW ones. If you are curious, the ageofdarkness podcast discusses this in their centennial episode (Myles from lillegend talks a bit towards the end about a shift in the aesthetic post Bligh)

I would not be surprised if TOW gets a different aesthetic from AoS. The story has a different tone (just like Heresy has a different tone than standard 40k)

I hadn't noticed the distinction, I probably just didn't look well enough.

I hope you are right, I like some AoS armies, but find most too... much. Kinda the distinction you describe.

I do think the sets of Cities will fit in the Old World, but really hope that the models I like will not be locked out of AoS.

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7 hours ago, GorbadIronClaw said:

To be honest, actually the weirdest thing I found here and that I really can't buy is TOW beign announced by GW yet when supossedly there are still 3/4 years for it to be launched      😕???

Is there any precedent for such an anticipated reveal on WH History? What is the reason for this rush? I have the impression that we are beign deceived, and it will come out a lot sooner than we are beign told... 3/4 years is more than enough time for things to happen, like to suffer a cancellation/delay, and so. I can't see the point in taking the risk of letting down the fan base. 

I don't think we're being deceived at all, I think GW have pre-empted any potential leaks about the idea being given the green light and it means that the Specialist Games studio can be more open about it.  Having spoken to and listened to Andy a few times, they seem to have a really good handle on how long things actually take to produce.  It's pretty common knowledge that most projects take 2 to 3 years from start to finish - the second edition of AoS was started pretty much as soon as the original version hit the shelves as an example.

3 hours ago, Ggom said:

Sorry to keep waving the Heresy flag, but 30k has a distinct aesthetic actually. A lot of 30k players find the 40k aesthetic too “busy.” Compare for instance the 30k grey slayers forgeworld kit and the 40k grey hunters - the former goes heavier on runes and has much less “wolfy everything” and the heads are all more sculpted to look more serious (leather masks, braided hair) whereas 40k has mohawks and wolf heads on everything, and things tend to look a bit more cartoony.

It’s less true now with the move to different sculptors, but 3 years ago Heresy was very much distinct and you could easily identify the FW sculpts from the GW ones. If you are curious, the ageofdarkness podcast discusses this in their centennial episode (Myles from lillegend talks a bit towards the end about a shift in the aesthetic post Bligh)

I would not be surprised if TOW gets a different aesthetic from AoS. The story has a different tone (just like Heresy has a different tone than standard 40k)

I'd agree on this (big fan of the AoD podcast too).  I think there were a few different contributory factors to this, including the move to 3d sculpting, the loss of sculptors and Alan's passing.

Based on the statement that The Old World is to Warhammer, what Heresy is to 40k, I still think that The Old World is going to fundamentally be shaped around core narrative events (e.g. War of the Beards) and we're only going to see a few armies coming out at a time.  This makes a 3 year window a lot more realistic if there are only say 2 armies coming out plus rules.

But that is just guesswork on my part 😃

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1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

I don't think we're being deceived at all, I think GW have pre-empted any potential leaks about the idea being given the green light and it means that the Specialist Games studio can be more open about it.  Having spoken to and listened to Andy a few times, they seem to have a really good handle on how long things actually take to produce.  It's pretty common knowledge that most projects take 2 to 3 years from start to finish - the second edition of AoS was started pretty much as soon as the original version hit the shelves as an example.

It's pretty common knowledge that we have never been announced  about a project so early too, so the amount of time needed to develop TOW or any other system has nothing to do in my opinion.

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18 minutes ago, GorbadIronClaw said:

It's pretty common knowledge that we have never been announced  about a project so early too, so the amount of time needed to develop TOW or any other system has nothing to do in my opinion.

I'd agree that we've never seen a game system announced as far in advance as we have with The Old World.  Sisters were announced about 3 years before they came to fruition, but that was fairly recent and was just one army.  Ultimately I don't think we'll actually know the real reason - it may be some clever marketing ploy or it could quite simply be that somebody in GW was so excited, they wouldn't have been able to keep quiet 😂

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It might even be that GW is starting to unravel and undo the super secret departmental policies within their own HQ. Whilst it does let GW control their marketing better, it also has hiccups when department A works on something insane (like an entire rework of a major game) and half the rest of the core of the company has no clue what is going on. So with this project being out in the open early on it means they don't have to keep it locked behind super secret doors all the time and can bring in a wider range of staff with reduced leak risk (since if Old World stuff does now leak GW has already said its coming). 

The real reason is likely formed of many parts. We've also speculated that it could be linked in part to Lord of the Rings since that is an IP outside of GW's direct control which could be taken away at any moment (or at least at any time the contract comes up for renewal). GW has seen that they can run two fantasy systems at once and with Lord of the Rings being a bit like Starwars in that its its own thing that will survive quite well as an IP on its own; GW might well feel that adding their own style of similar game at least means if the LOTR ever gets taken away, GW has an in house own brand to replace it with in theme at the very least. 

It could even be that GW actually wants to drop the LotR stuff for their own reasons and has decided to wait it out to launch another game to sort of replace it on their own before retiring LotR. 

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18 minutes ago, Overread said:

The real reason is likely formed of many parts. We've also speculated that it could be linked in part to Lord of the Rings since that is an IP outside of GW's direct control which could be taken away at any moment (or at least at any time the contract comes up for renewal). GW has seen that they can run two fantasy systems at once and with Lord of the Rings being a bit like Starwars in that its its own thing that will survive quite well as an IP on its own; GW might well feel that adding their own style of similar game at least means if the LOTR ever gets taken away, GW has an in house own brand to replace it with in theme at the very least. 

It could even be that GW actually wants to drop the LotR stuff for their own reasons and has decided to wait it out to launch another game to sort of replace it on their own before retiring LotR. 

I hope not as LotR is going though a huge revival at the moment with new and returning players coming daily. Plus with them producing the Rohan scenery and recent new plastic sculpts and forge world sculpts I think LotR is going to be here for the longhaul.

I see the Old World project just been a specialist game project like Horus Heresy and not another 'main' game system like AoS or 40k. Currently they consider their 'main' game systems to be 40k, AoS and LotR. Anything outside of that or within that are usually boxed games e.g Warcry, Underworlds, Kill Team, Necromunda etc.

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20 hours ago, amysrevenge said:

I think this notion of stealing models from AoS to feed TOW is a backwards one. It's like (to use an analogy from North American sports) sending your best starting pitcher down to the AAA farm team to belp the AAA team win.

AoS is the main game. TOW will be the small specialist side game.

(Also, I've said it before in this thread, but the time between now and when we can expect TOW is roughly the same as the time between the start of AoS and now. It would be silly to make hobby decisions based on something that far away just based on time, let alone on the dearth of actual information.)

I totally agree with AOS and TOW's respective places in GW's games. 

But I was talking about TOW getting back models that were designed for its own setting. At no point at all I would imagine some models from AOS going to TOW. 

But WFB-designed models - currently used in AOS while not having proper replacements - going back to their original setting via TOW would be right IMO, because :

1. by doing this GW would (re)use resources they already have if they don't change scale (saying that while hoping for lots of new TOW sculpts !) and

2. it would force GW to distinguish further AOS and WFB/TOW in terms of looks and general aesthetic. 

My main concern is that what would be the point of, say, a Clanrats kit designed for rank & files square bases (the current one), and a new Clanrat kit designed specifically for AOS (how could they be different ? Different poses like the Underworld band ? Broken stormcast masks on the base ?) You see my point / problem...

As said above by @Ggom, if you look at the general feel of the settings, the details, the lore, 40k (moreso post Great Rift) and Horus Heresy have quite distinct aesthetic and feels and themes, while playing on the same archetypes. I love GW for that and hope they will did it for AOS / TWO too.

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I think by the time TOW comes out, the majority of the leftover kits from WHFB will have had AoS replacements, be that a straight update (Warriors of Chaos) or thematic replacements (Ossiarchs for Skeletons, etc).

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20 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

30k has the advantage in that it's the same timeline (just wound on 10,000 years), whereas I'd say that AoS doesn't really have the same lineage to things in The Old World.  That said, that's entirely supposition on my part!  I reckon we could well have another year to wait to find out any more substantial information.

Well, TOW was described as the Antiquity of AOS the same way HH is the Antiquity of 40k (also, it's general look is more like our greco-roman Antiquity while grimdark 40k is more like our Middle-Ages). 

And there is no doubt the World-that-was (past tense) / or World-before-time is in the past of the same Timeline as AOS - but as you say, I think there is a lot more time than 10000 years between the End Times and the start of the Age of Myth ! 😜

20 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

I think if this were to happen then there would likely already be a plan in place and the AoS Design Studio would need to be made aware of it (because that's a massive list of models).  It was confirmed that they don't know anything about the project at the moment, so that discussion hasn't been had (yet?).

(...)

100% with you with the dated looking kits. 

But there are plenty of 7th- or 8th Edition WFB kits that are good enough for TOW, even some older ones (that are also fine for AOS too, like the Dryads).

We could also say that every kits with dynamic  / "over the top" poses from 8th Ed WFB and the End Times are to stay in AOS (even if their archetypes totally fits in WFB), while more static ones can go back to TOW.

The lack of communication between the Sales direction, the AOS studio and the Specialist department is hugely problematic though. 

I get that Sales dictates most of GW's choices, but for example the High Elves squatting during the CoS release (yet now more comprehensible given the coming of the redesigned Light Aelves) - where even whole subfactions absent from the rules where present in the fluff - was hugely problematic.

GW have enormous plastic, good looking ressources for TOW in terms of models in the form of the better looking modern WFB kits, it would be a shame if they don't use them (even if, as I said, I also want new Old World models too !!). 

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 I can not really see WHFB coming back with Old world : I mean 14/15 armies with full miniatures range

As well I can not really see real future updates for some AoS armies such as Cities of Sigmar,Seraphon,Beast of chaos, Skaven,Slaves to darkness, Legion of Nagash,FEC,Ogor mawtribes (except for maybe one hero exclusive box as carrion empire or underworlds warbands)

 I imagine ToW as a lore focused specialist game with probably 4-6 legacy armies such as empire ,o&g,dwarfs,vampire counts,wood elf and bretonnia

 a tiny miniatures range just common orcs and common goblins for O&G i.e. with some legacy characthers/units such as Grimgor and his immortaluz

Vampire counts with Vlad and mainly vampire based  miniatures range and so on

 So no model interaction between AoS and ToW

 I believe scale can be the same as  the old WHFB (see new STD warriors or underworlds wolf riders )

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I don't see any reason why GW would not want at least partial crossover between AoS and the old world. if someone buys models for one game they are encouraged to buy the remaining models for the other game. 

I can easily see them have certain, less fantastical units only be used in the old world. and certain very fantastical units only be used in AoS. and then units that don't look out of place in both settings be usable in both games.

essentially each army with crossover will have 3 styles, or 3 groups within a spectrum: old world, AoS and one that fits into both.

Daemons of chaos already do this with AoS and 40k, so i don't see why GW wouldn't take the opportunity to do this with more armies.

 

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I just recently started with Aos after playing Total War Warhammer. So the Video Game and the presentation of the old world there brought me here. 

So I really looking forward to see the Old World in tabletop again. 

But with limited time and money and only a very few friends that play tabletop games i hope you can play with minis of both settings in the same game. So i can play stormcast vs Tomb kings or whatever i like. 

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I was just wandering if the Legends compendium will be involved in The Old World. They provide already all the warscrolls that we can need to play old world armies.

What do you think?

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Unlikely. They could release that game tomorrow, and it would just be AoS with different warscrolls. 

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On 1/16/2020 at 3:17 PM, Dukeus said:

I just recently started with Aos after playing Total War Warhammer. So the Video Game and the presentation of the old world there brought me here. 

So I really looking forward to see the Old World in tabletop again. 

But with limited time and money and only a very few friends that play tabletop games i hope you can play with minis of both settings in the same game. So i can play stormcast vs Tomb kings or whatever i like. 

I don't know that they'd need 3 years or whatever they said it would be to make a game that you can just use the same models in both the same ways.  

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The icons of the map suggest this will be settled around the Age of the Three Emperors. If the game focuses on pseudo-historical humans it will be a hard pass for me.
I know the Gorbad Ironclaw's invasion happened around that era, but I don't remember anything else interesting happening. Of course, if this follows the Middle-Earth BSG  approach, we may be only talking about the first book, with others potentially based on more juicy eras.

 

Edited by Jator
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5 minutes ago, Jator said:

The icons of the map suggest this will be settled around the Age of the Three Emperors. If the game focuses on pseudo-historical humans it will be a hard pass for me.
I know the Gorbad Ironclaw's invasion happened around that era, but I don't remember anything else interesting happening. Of course, if this follows the Middle-Earth BSG  approach, we may be only talking about the first book, with others potentially based on more juicy eras.

 

My expectation is that we'll be getting different books for different eras with corresponding army lists with maybe some options for open ended pitched battle matched play that doesn't adhere to a theme. Now that there's not really a narrative to pursure MEBSG is probably the closest thing that GW is already doing since even though we know the end result of the Horus Heresy, it's still playing out chronologically for now.

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@Jator There were also wars with Vampire Counts and later Great War Against Chaos happened. And at that time Dark Elves invaded Ulthuan. Faal of Praag. Battle at the Gate of Kislev. Can't wait!

Edited by michu
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Am I wrong in thinking that the 4 blazons represented are Averland (it's the same emblem as in Total War, this one is the easiest), Stirland (I'm really not sure but the colors make me think about it), Middenheim (the white wolf) and Marienburg (the mermaid) ?

 

I really want to see new human imperial model (to play Mordheim, i've read so much good thing about this game) so i'm pretty excited about it

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3 minutes ago, michu said:

@Jator There were also wars with Vampire Counts and later Great War Against Chaos happened. And at that time Dark Elves invaded Ulthuan. Faal of Praag. Battle at the Gate of Kislev. Can't wait!

The Great War against Chaos would be an interesting era (and explain why the North is so well featured in the new map) but wasn't that in the aftermath of the Age of Three Emperors? Still, as you pointed out, there can be conflicts that I forgot, or just others newly created, (there's room for that. And weren't the skaven also amidst a civil war?).

I also forgot to mention what I consider the positives on my last post: The map is beautiful, and they seem to have a direction for the game now.

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the war of three emperors is a pretty long period in old world history and a pretty vague one open to interpretation and exploring so I wouldn't count out any factions just yet(plus the practical I dont think the development team has a solid plan yet). All said I am somewhat reserved on fleshing things out too much one of the things that personally drove me away from Warhammer lore was how Empire centered the stories became around 6th but more so 7th, combined with how much those parts of the world  gained rigid backgrounds, though my club at the time running a lot of narrative campaigns didnt help. (GWs buisness plan of sellin models rather then a hobby at the time stopped me playing though)

at least as someone who likes to be creative ideas with models my  forces became  more and more relegated to crusades in the chaos wastes, borderlands and fringes of the world rather then being  able to thrive in the vagaries of the main story so to say.

though this is more of a HH type game  rather then a continual living game and AoS gives me a huge creative outlet(despite a needed look that some feel its models require without being able to explain it to me what it is)

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That is a very pretty map. If nothing else we know that the production values on this are going to be good.

If it is going to be set in the past, then a period of civil war within the Empire makes a lot of sense. There is  the obvious Horus Heresy comparison, but it also means that they can focus on Imperial factions, which use many of the same troops, and then later expand it into external threats as more and more factions try to take advantage of the chaos in the Empire.

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13 hours ago, Sance said:

Am I wrong in thinking that the 4 blazons represented are Averland (it's the same emblem as in Total War, this one is the easiest), Stirland (I'm really not sure but the colors make me think about it), Middenheim (the white wolf) and Marienburg (the mermaid) ?

Should be Reikland  and Talabecland (the symbols are in these provinces),  the other two are right. With the names and these choices I do think it is around of the mordheim-comet. 

Edited by obaobaboss
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