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Gareth ūüćĄ

Warhammer - The Old World

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Does the 3 year timeline coincide with when gw would lose the rights to produce lord of the rings miniatures? Just curious if this is in any way related

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2 hours ago, azdimy said:

Does the 3 year timeline coincide with when gw would lose the rights to produce lord of the rings miniatures? Just curious if this is in any way related

I've wondered that. I've not been able to find a definitive source on when the LoTR license is next up though. I'm sure I remember reading something about it being renewed for ten years a while back(maybe around 2015-2017?), but I'm not sure how far through those ten years we are at this point.

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Even if not the LotR licence does restrict GW in what they can create for the setting and also in what they can do with it. Plus they have the licence/royalties/whatever to pay with it as well. Of course its a very solid game and model line and the kind of thing that they likely want to hold onto; even if it dwindles without the movies it still viable. Plus its there if they ever do remakes or more Tolkien films. 

 

That said it wouldn't be "GW's Creation" like Old World is. Old World GW can do whatever they want with including kill it off. Lord of the Rings is a harder beast to work with and even if it got to a point where it wasn't economical to keep going they might be contractually obliged to keep it in production to honour the contract. 

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1 hour ago, Overread said:

Lord of the Rings is a harder beast to work with and even if it got to a point where it wasn't economical to keep going they might be contractually obliged to keep it in production to honour the contract. 

It really felt like they had gotten to that point a short while ago when it was being neglected. I wonder if the recent wave of support that the game has been getting is partially to justify still having the license, and potentially make a renewal look more enticing to the other parties. If they were up for renewal and not doing anything for a year or two, then the Tolkien estate would be quite within their rights to give it to someone else.

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I think people might be surprised at how popular LotR is... especially among collectors. 

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18 minutes ago, Hollow said:

I think people might be surprised at how popular LotR is... especially among collectors. 

Oh for sure! A lot of us out there are fans of it, but for a long time after the hobbit films, it didn't really feel like they were doing much with it. After LoTR finished, they kept releasing products, and expanding into the lore and stuff from the books that didn't make it into the film. There were various releases and new books for different areas and conflicts.

With the Hobbit, they initially didn't even finish the stuff that was in the films, and it wasn't until it was passed over to specialist games that we started seeing new releases with any frequency. I was certainly still collecting and painting the models, but at least around here there didn't seem to be the same buzz about it, and after basically being a core game for almost a decade, it was sad to no longer even have a lord of the rings section in the high street stores.

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36 minutes ago, Hollow said:

I think people might be surprised at how popular LotR is... especially among collectors. 

Yeah, there is some unknowable number of invisible-to-us collector hobbyists.  I've got a friend (mid-40s, like me) who has never been a tabletop guy, who just this week DMed me for advice on brushes and paints and where to go for how-to videos because he wants to paint up a bunch of LotR models he picked up on a whim.  Is he representative?  An outlier?  There is no way for me to know.

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13 hours ago, Hollow said:

I think people might be surprised at how popular LotR is... especially among collectors. 

Since most classic RPGs build around Tolkien races and style, I’d say a lot of buyers come from this direction.

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14 hours ago, EccentricCircle said:

Oh for sure! A lot of us out there are fans of it, but for a long time after the hobbit films, it didn't really feel like they were doing much with it. After LoTR finished, they kept releasing products, and expanding into the lore and stuff from the books that didn't make it into the film. There were various releases and new books for different areas and conflicts.

With the Hobbit, they initially didn't even finish the stuff that was in the films, and it wasn't until it was passed over to specialist games that we started seeing new releases with any frequency. I was certainly still collecting and painting the models, but at least around here there didn't seem to be the same buzz about it, and after basically being a core game for almost a decade, it was sad to no longer even have a lord of the rings section in the high street stores.

There still is in mine.

I have a friend who is an avid LotR player, and he stated the game was very nearly killed, but the fans decided to buy more stuff, and the battlegroups arose. At least, that's how I remember it (simplified).

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On 12/3/2019 at 12:21 PM, Hollow said:

I think people might be surprised at how popular LotR is... especially among collectors. 

I know I wanted to get into LotR back around 2012 or when ever the hobbit stuff started coming out, and talked to one of the guys at my local shop and he said he'd never actually seen the game played there. They sold a decent amount of the stuff, but as far as he was aware, none of them really played it and just collected the models. It's a shame, but cause years later when I did finally find people who were into the game and got into it, it turns out that it's probably my favorite GW rule set.

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Not played LOTR in many years, so no idea how much the rules have changed but other then Blood Bowl the original era rules were my favourite ever by GW, fantastic game and if I still had my old armies I would play it now.

I might end up re collecting some tolkien armies though since my interest in getting involved in AoS is kind of dead since they announced the return of the Old World in the years to come. 

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2 minutes ago, Golgfag said:

Not played LOTR in many years, so no idea how much the rules have changed but other then Blood Bowl the original era rules were my favourite ever by GW, fantastic game and if I still had my old armies I would play it now.

I might end up re collecting some tolkien armies though since my interest in getting involved in AoS is kind of dead since they announced the return of the Old World in the years to come. 

Some how in this brave new Age of Streamline the core rules in the new edition of MESBG have remained relatively intact. I hope the new edition of Bloodbowl coming out next year is a fortunate.

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1 minute ago, bsharitt said:

Some how in this brave new Age of Streamline the core rules in the new edition of MESBG have remained relatively intact. I hope the new edition of Bloodbowl coming out next year is a fortunate.

Good to know and I believe Blood Bowl rules will be safe, since of all the games that GW dropped support for over the years, that is the one that thrived the most thanks to the player base in GW's absence, I doubt with how better GW are at being involved in the community now that they would risk losing that player base by drastically changing the core game. 

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On 12/2/2019 at 9:13 PM, gjnoronh said:

Do you have a source?
First I've heard that they were that far along on 9th edition WFB.

 

 

 

On 12/2/2019 at 10:31 PM, amysrevenge said:

Yeah, the way I heard it they were already started on what would become AoS well before the End Times, like 2012 or earlier.

the next editions would have already been on the table a year into the new edition dropping in terms of ideas and rules, and in the case of whfb each edition was really looking at what didn't work vs what did and tweaking accordingly.  So 8th lands, by mid cycle the superseding product (9th) is already at a stage where it can be parked until release or tweaked here and there for release, with ideas on the table already for 10th.

This leaves you room for your 'contingency' products - for example if you need to pull a product or run something new in parallel.

It would have been the big stuff like AoS which was essentially a full re-write that would have been done early on as well - the life cycle being longer for it's production.  Since fantasy sales were not as lucrative as 40k but it was clear that the user base was there, it was only to be expected that  the strategic team would have asked the question of viability and whether it was worth it.  A book release was one thing, but people would expect new models, army book updates etc.

That never ending cycle of risk vs reward as far as the shareholders were concerned, and make no mistake, it is driven by shareholders now.

That said, if you're profitable enough, then the paradox is that you can afford to have some flights of fancy, some slack cut, so maybe in this respect, AoS has actually saved what was fantasy rather than destroyed it completely.

 

On 12/3/2019 at 12:15 AM, VBS said:

There was an interview with R. Priestley were he mentioned that plans for making massive changes to the old world since the end of 7th ed. And that he wrote about advancing the timeline with Karl Franz getting murdered and the Empire wrecked by a Nurgle invasion. Ironically, it was considered too extreme back then O.o Those ideas were later recycled into Tamurkhan as an alternative series (also cancelled). So it is safe to assume that during 8th (2009-2010 onward) they were already working on big changes, whether it was an initial version of AoS or a 9th edition with heavy modifications. Or possibly the later first, and then getting scraped for the former somewhere along those 5 years.

Rick and Alan Bligh were going to do the end times as an offshoot of the main whfb universe.  The original intention was that it would follow the paths of the four sons of the great Khurghan as they each pledged to a different chaos god, with the victorious one beginning the end times.  The first book of the campaign was Tamurkhan.  It's a pity we'll never get to see the scribbles for the remaining three stories.

This was bulldozed by the main business as they took the idea and decided to run with it themselves taking it (the end times idea) to all intents and purposes out of Priestley's hands.  The main business had Archaon knocking around since 5th edition, coming to the fore in the storm of chaos in 6th edition and probably decided he was the poster boy from thereon.

 

By this time GW had changed from a bunch of creatives doing their thing to a full blown money making enterprise don't forget so with that growth came huge change in direction and strategy.

As Rick Priestley himself put it in one interview:

"Bryan (Ansell) always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say ‚Äď he wasn‚Äôt wrong there! The modern studio isn‚Äôt a studio in the same way; it isn‚Äôt a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It‚Äôs become the promotions department of a toy company ‚Äď things move on!"

 

Going back to Old world... it depend who takes it on. Main business or FW specialist games.  If its the latter then I wouldn't be surprised if its run in a campaign book format like heresy as it manageable that way.  Core book. Campaign book with (maybe a boxed set of) supporting miniatures.

That way you're not trying to run a repeat of the main business with factions armies etc, which is a massive logistical and inventory task. and drop tons of money into inventory that potentially doesn't sell.

It's worked well in Heresy with people waiting years for their legion to get a part in the campaign, and when it does they buy by the bucket load.  It makes sense to do the same with old world. 

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I would do it the way of Core Book with basic rules and stats for all factions and Campaign books with updated stats and new ways to play in each, e.g. in Chaos Wastes book I would recreate old Realm of Chaos game of Path to Glory with mutations, followers, boons etc. (ofc encouraging conversions with FW producing upgrade frames with chaos bits).

 

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10 hours ago, bsharitt said:

I hope the new edition of Bloodbowl coming out next year is a fortunate.

is this a definite thing?

I've been looking at the current BB starter box for ages now trying to decide whether to press the button & get involved, was one of my favourite games back in the day.

But then, for that very reason, like the awful old sod desperately trying to rekindle that spark of joy that I had as a 11 yr old before life crushed it all out of me I also keep looking at copies of the classic Astrogranite 2nd Edition on eBay.

If there's a new edition coming next year then I can happily go in on that nostalgia fest now and leave the new version till then (though there's still a couple of the new teams I want to just pick up as fun painting projects).

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1 hour ago, Kaleb Daark said:

 

the next editions would have already been on the table a year into the new edition dropping in terms of ideas and rules, and in the case of whfb each edition was really looking at what didn't work vs what did and tweaking accordingly.  So 8th lands, by mid cycle the superseding product (9th) is already at a stage where it can be parked until release or tweaked here and there for release, with ideas on the table already for 10th.

This leaves you room for your 'contingency' products - for example if you need to pull a product or run something new in parallel.

It would have been the big stuff like AoS which was essentially a full re-write that would have been done early on as well - the life cycle being longer for it's production.  Since fantasy sales were not as lucrative as 40k but it was clear that the user base was there, it was only to be expected that  the strategic team would have asked the question of viability and whether it was worth it.  A book release was one thing, but people would expect new models, army book updates etc.

That never ending cycle of risk vs reward as far as the shareholders were concerned, and make no mistake, it is driven by shareholders now.

That said, if you're profitable enough, then the paradox is that you can afford to have some flights of fancy, some slack cut, so maybe in this respect, AoS has actually saved what was fantasy rather than destroyed it completely.

 

Rick and Alan Bligh were going to do the end times as an offshoot of the main whfb universe.  The original intention was that it would follow the paths of the four sons of the great Khurghan as they each pledged to a different chaos god, with the victorious one beginning the end times.  The first book of the campaign was Tamurkhan.  It's a pity we'll never get to see the scribbles for the remaining three stories.

This was bulldozed by the main business as they took the idea and decided to run with it themselves taking it (the end times idea) to all intents and purposes out of Priestley's hands.  The main business had Archaon knocking around since 5th edition, coming to the fore in the storm of chaos in 6th edition and probably decided he was the poster boy from thereon.

 

By this time GW had changed from a bunch of creatives doing their thing to a full blown money making enterprise don't forget so with that growth came huge change in direction and strategy.

As Rick Priestley himself put it in one interview:

"Bryan (Ansell) always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say ‚Äď he wasn‚Äôt wrong there! The modern studio isn‚Äôt a studio in the same way; it isn‚Äôt a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It‚Äôs become the promotions department of a toy company ‚Äď things move on!"

 

Going back to Old world... it depend who takes it on. Main business or FW specialist games.  If its the latter then I wouldn't be surprised if its run in a campaign book format like heresy as it manageable that way.  Core book. Campaign book with (maybe a boxed set of) supporting miniatures.

That way you're not trying to run a repeat of the main business with factions armies etc, which is a massive logistical and inventory task. and drop tons of money into inventory that potentially doesn't sell.

It's worked well in Heresy with people waiting years for their legion to get a part in the campaign, and when it does they buy by the bucket load.  It makes sense to do the same with old world. 

that all makes sense, but do you have evidence that the ninth and potentially tenth ed drafts were, mechanically speaking, a continuation of the wfb design philosophy, and not just the early stages of what would become AoS?

I could well believe that AoS rules might have been intended for the old world at one stage, but that they finished an update cycle for the wfb core rules, were ready to publish, and only then decided to radically redesign the system doesn't seem to fit the development timeline. I'd have expected the ideas for AoS one to be well in development long before 8e came out?

Edited by EccentricCircle
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I've heard that the start of AoS design (not sure if modern AoS or AoS-like WFB) was during 7th ed. But that's just a rumour. There exist Blanche concepts for ScE but they don't have any date so I don't know when they were made.

 

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23 minutes ago, michu said:

I've heard that the start of AoS design (not sure if modern AoS or AoS-like WFB) was during 7th ed. But that's just a rumour. There exist Blanche concepts for ScE but they don't have any date so I don't know when they were made.

 

The initial rules pages were only 4 pages though weren't they and no points etc.?   So I suspect that implies they could do a much shorter planning timescale than 9th edition WHFB would require?

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4 hours ago, EccentricCircle said:

that all makes sense, but do you have evidence that the ninth and potentially tenth ed drafts were, mechanically speaking, a continuation of the wfb design philosophy, and not just the early stages of what would become AoS?

I could well believe that AoS rules might have been intended for the old world at one stage, but that they finished an update cycle for the wfb core rules, were ready to publish, and only then decided to radically redesign the system doesn't seem to fit the development timeline. I'd have expected the ideas for AoS one to be well in development long before 8e came out?

Absolutely.  This would have been an option in development probably around the same time as 8th was being written whilst 7th was in the stores.

As I understood from old employees at the mothership 9th was following the same thinking of all that went before it, so full on ranks and flanks, as the fantasy we all knew.

The big bomb option wouldn't have been taken lightly - and it's one of those decisions where one would have admitted reluctantly that if it (AoS)  didn't work out then you'd probably have folded the fantasy product line anyway due to profit vs continued investment costs so the risk was worth taking.

Edited by Kaleb Daark
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10 hours ago, Gilboy said:

The initial rules pages were only 4 pages though weren't they and no points etc.?   So I suspect that implies they could do a much shorter planning timescale than 9th edition WHFB would require?

Quite the contrary, actually writing out the rules is just the final step of a very complex design process. The simpler you want the end product to be the more research and development it takes to iterate down to that simple rules set, make sure it all still works, and figure out what elements of complexity you actually want to keep. A vast amount of playtesting is needed to make sure that your simple short rule set actually works and still effectively communicates the nuances of the game.

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On 12/6/2019 at 6:37 AM, Gilboy said:

The initial rules pages were only 4 pages though weren't they and no points etc.?   So I suspect that implies they could do a much shorter planning timescale than 9th edition WHFB would require?

rules were, and remain, the last priority of product design for GW. And AoS was made in the era where GW was deaf, dumb, and blind and insisted that their game lines were just a side thing and the hobby was all about collectors. Kirby was a bad CEO. 

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I'm kind of hoping for this to be an alternative timeline OR AoS to become an alternative timeline, simply because I don't think I could handle playing games of WHFB knowing that everyone in my army will soon be dead, and all of their achievements will be for nought. Heck, maybe if we got an alternative timeline, we could see some of those cool Blanchecast Eternals as Gelt's reinforcements, as I think it was rumoured they were originally intended to be? MAYBE.

Edited by Lord_of_theRavenspire
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1 minute ago, Lord_of_theRavenspire said:

I'm kind of hoping for this to be an alternative timeline OR AoS to become an alternative timeline, simply because I don't think I could handle playing games of WHFB knowing that everyone in my army will soon be dead, and all of their achievements will be for nought. Heck, maybe if we got an alternative timeline, we could see some of those cool Blanchecast Eternals as Felt's reinforcements, as I think it was rumoured they were originally intended to be? MAYBE.

As GW already said it will be like 30k/40k, so no alternate timeline. 

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