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Gareth 🍄

Warhammer - The Old World

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I'm starting to wonder if the three year wait time isn't just as much to do with miniatures design, but more so with the current supported game cycles. As someone mentioned previously, LotR could be up for licensing soon, they have promised support for warcry, kill & necromunda for *various* amount of years (I'd say three years left on all of them seems pretty fair seeing how they run their games for the last 30 years) The HH is going to be in it's death throes by then (at a rate of about three books a year and there is bound to be a wait on the last couple) and AoS is going to be either due an update or just had one.

I do wonder if they will pick up a chunk of WFB history which has either never been covered, or has room to expand beyond what ever novels where already set in that era. I'm trying not to read too much into the HH comparison, as it probably is only meant to have been in reference to both of them being set 'historically' to their current games, but a 50+ book series set in the WFB, I really can't tell if I'd love it or go mad trying to get through it. After all, I've been stuck on the same book of the HH for a year now and this is the 2nd time I gotten stuck trying to get through the books. I don't ever see me reaching the end of it at this point.

But damn, would I buy every hardback if they did that. I'm a sucker for books!

I've seen a few games offering 2d terrain in this past year. I am also not a fan. At that point I'd just not bother playing and stick with video games or something. The whole appeal to me for fantasy wargaming is the narrative spectacle. 2d terrain works for an intro game but looks dreadful for anything else. I'm hoping what ever GW do with this new version, they do what ever they need to, to be able to sell it but keep it as far away from a lot of the common ideas that populate the current run of games. 2D terrain, cards, tokens, DLC style rules might be popular but I actively dislike them.

Edited by RexHavoc
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5 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

No.  I am gutted because I'm watching my group get splintered and made smaller, and thats not why I chose to play a GW game.  I chose a GW game because it was promised that it had the largest play group to facilitate competitive gaming.

This is a fair and understandable feeling,  It can be frustrating to want to participate in a system when there is diversity of options swinging towards another at the time.(As a firm mordheim player I had al kinds of difficulty when Inquisitor showed up) but  this hobby doesn't have to be restricted to one system in your group even if you dont like the others. Things  can always come around and especially a healthy community(which it sounds like you have as i would see people playing more sytems as a wider base for your community) can have a lot of diverse competitive players  with over lapping systems just mechanically speaking AoS and WHFB are quite different games(almost warmachine to warmaster), with WHFB being a scaled down regimental game where positioning was key, AoS is like a skirmish game on steroids where each of your units motion and and output determine the game. They are similar in that GW has some rules style they generally keep between their systems but they at least operationally different games, from this angle WHFB isnt much competition for AoS (40k is a different manner)

 

It doesn't need to be a splintering it can be a way of facilitating different types of games( On setting is narrative slap some creativity and bam you've changed settings)this may be a opportunity to get some of these folks that haven't been around  into AoS in the meantime, especially if you don't mind square bases(Heck they dont even need new armies in most cases) . Emphasize AoS strong points the creative opportunists for modelling and converting each squad as YOUR dudes way more then say a space marine or Empire soldier with a different coat of paint. Get them into skirmish sized games. ( hoard of goblins overwehlming a band of heroes is very different then pikemen holding off blocks of units). By the time this old world game actually happens you may have a stornger community of people who can play both systems depending on what kind of game they prefer at the moment.

 

If they are into the dark setting oh man the  Dark Age of Sigmar community will pull them in like a whirlpool. I went from "Hmmm....this just looks like 40k with some tweaks " to now having a work bench full of thematic minis, A super eager and accessible club, a book of fluff i wrote and projects i'll never be able to. afford.

 

It's good to remember we may be AoS players but this is a hobby and the more room we make for people the better it will be for us.

 

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12 hours ago, michu said:

Eh, that's not entirely true - first years of warhammer was grimy but also more fantastical than for example 6th ed.

TBH if there are dragons and regular gryphs in your world, what is wrong with demigryphs? In 3rd edition, even regular gryphs were just hybrids born thanks to chaotic energies. They were just stable mutants like 40k abhumans.

Agreed, I started in 3rd Edition/ WFRP and it was much it pretty fantastical flying Dwarfs, flying Islands and Las totting Amazons all knocking about and the Dwarfs of Man O War were pretty techy. 
1BBF8689-51FE-4769-A498-7E2A95A29A62.jpeg.6839206f520c52ecfc8299c2fbf880db.jpeg

and let’s not forget the “magic” items won during the 6th Ed Dark Shadows campaign were all 40k equipment

Edited by Ollie Grimwood

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I just really hope they don’t reinvent Mordheim in that new specialist game style, with thousands of addon boxes, cards, fixed terrain and stuff. 😬

Yes, I know, no one forces you to play the  new version. But people will be naturally drawn to new and shiny, even if it’s ( in my eyes, or even objectively) worse ☹️

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@Ollie Grimwood yeah, I remember the albion campaign, good times! Gw’s setting have always kind of shifted in tone and style, I think that’s one of the reasons they survived for so long. Who knows maybe in 10 years AoS will look more like Dark Sould than D&D 😂

@Beastmaster I think with mordheim they really captured lightning in a bottle tone wise. I don’t see how they could replicate that today as a bigger structure with more oversight and such. I’m fine with letting Mordheim live in fans communities, but if they re-release it we’ll at least get some cool new models.

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9 hours ago, Evangelist of Cinders said:

It doesn't need to be a splintering it can be a way of facilitating different types of games( On setting is narrative slap some creativity and bam you've changed settings)this may be a opportunity to get some of these folks that haven't been around  into AoS in the meantime, especially if you don't mind square bases(Heck they dont even need new armies in most cases) . Emphasize AoS strong points the creative opportunists for modelling and converting each squad as YOUR dudes way more then say a space marine or Empire soldier with a different coat of paint. Get them into skirmish sized games. ( hoard of goblins overwehlming a band of heroes is very different then pikemen holding off blocks of units). By the time this old world game actually happens you may have a stornger community of people who can play both systems depending on what kind of game they prefer at the moment.

If I got you right, I would partially agree.

BUT

I can totally understand him, that the community might, and most likely will be splitted, as more options roll in. Sure, it is nice to have several games to dip in.

BUT

The prerequisite would be, that the now established players will be willing to pay fot that option to have. Otherwise there will be a distinct number of players wanting to play that version of AoS ( wich i really think it will be ), or the existing ones. Some of those will find it better than the AoS we know, others won't.

I guess that's what his concern is.
Iagree totally, that this shall not happen frequently, since communities are very integre, BUT that also depends on the community itself. If they are not that integre with each other, it might be a splitting in that community.

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45 minutes ago, Moldek said:

@Ollie Grimwood yeah, I remember the albion campaign, good times! Gw’s setting have always kind of shifted in tone and style, I think that’s one of the reasons they survived for so long. Who knows maybe in 10 years AoS will look more like Dark Sould than D&D 😂

@Beastmaster I think with mordheim they really captured lightning in a bottle tone wise. I don’t see how they could replicate that today as a bigger structure with more oversight and such. I’m fine with letting Mordheim live in fans communities, but if they re-release it we’ll at least get some cool new models.

Absolutely. I’m very intrigued what the tone of the The Old World will be. After all we know what the twists are, Malkieth in the turn Phoenix king and his scheming caused the war of the beard or Lileath is the The Lady. 
 

Yes we knew in broad strokes the outline of the HH but it hadn’t been told in full. The story of Warhammer Fantasy has been told to it’s conclusion over the last 30+ years. 
 

GW clearly have a vision though otherwise they wouldn’t be doing it 

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Its great that so many people here have a gaming community so big they are not worried about it splitting at all. But for the rest of us, this is actually a problem. If my local play group loses 1/3 of the players, it will be harder to actually get a game and if you start having trouble getting a game more will stop. 

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Maybe instead of trying to desperately hold onto people who seem to be waiting for any excuse to trash or leave the game, people worried about their gaming groups fragmenting should look to bring in new people that haven't been nursing bitter resentments?

RPGs have never been more popular, fantasy/sci-fi films are pretty much the mainstay of much TV/film culture these days, nerd culture in general has never been more accommodated, Games Workshop has, it appears, never done so well either and at the same time they're pumping out content daily from stories to tutorials to support for schools and small clubs.

There's a whole range of options with which to hook people into the Warhammer world, whether it's Underworlds where your investment might run to £20, Warcry where you just need 1 box of models to get going, various ways off playing the main game from small Skirmishes to Meeting Engagement Games to 2000pts Matched Play games to whatever comes next.

This is a golden age for the hobby, I see hundreds of new people on places like Twitter and Instagram who look nothing like your 'traditional Warhammer player' getting excited by it, getting into it all for the first time, sharing stories and art, showing off conversions, providing painting tips, creating communities. Tap into this.

Look beyond your own circles, welcome new people in, make your group exciting, open minded, a welcoming space that encourages new people, that lifts the game, and those that play it, up that celebrates all aspects of the game. Then in 3 years time 'The Old World', whatever it actually is, will just be another string to your bow to bring more people in, create new stories and do different stuff.

And anyway churn is real, a huge percentage of people into the hobby today won't be into it in 3 years, not because of anything bad but people's lives and priorities change, they drift away, they have kids, get jobs that take up their lives, their acne clears and they discover sex, drugs, drink and music, and then they come back when they're ready, all these things are natural.

If your enjoyment of the game is dependent on having a big group of people then you need to accept that and put the work in to keep attracting new people to the game, we're all just lucky in that there's never been a better or easier time to do so.

Edited by JPjr
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32 minutes ago, Silchas_Ruin said:

Its great that so many people here have a gaming community so big they are not worried about it splitting at all. But for the rest of us, this is actually a problem. If my local play group loses 1/3 of the players, it will be harder to actually get a game and if you start having trouble getting a game more will stop. 

It's less about the gaming communities being so big and more about being confident about people not just trashing their AoS armies because of Old World. It's not black or white. The world is not a binary one. Most people will collect and play Old World parallel to AoS, not instead.

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You're right @Panzer. I already plan to build Dispossessed/Dwarf army (I know, it's more than 3 years away, but which wargamer needs a reason to expand their grey pile of shame...).

Edited by michu

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9'th Age tournaments are bigger than AoS here, there are also people playing oldhammer. If someone asks on FB or a forum about starting Warhammer  all 3 groups try to recruit. I was pretty sure AoS would slowly win out, with active support and stuff its easier to get the new people. And I guess I still think we will be ok, but this is making me worried.

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48 minutes ago, JPjr said:

Maybe instead of trying to desperately hold onto people who seem to be waiting for any excuse to trash or leave the game, people worried about their gaming groups fragmenting should look to bring in new people that haven't been nursing bitter resentments?

RPGs have never been more popular, fantasy/sci-fi films are pretty much the mainstay of much TV/film culture these days, nerd culture in general has never been more accommodated, Games Workshop has, it appears, never done so well either and at the same time they're pumping out content daily from stories to tutorials to support for schools and small clubs.

There's a whole range of options with which to hook people into the Warhammer world, whether it's Underworlds where your investment might run to £20, Warcry where you just need 1 box of models to get going, various ways off playing the main game from small Skirmishes to Meeting Engagement Games to 2000pts Matched Play games to whatever comes next.

This is a golden age for the hobby, I see hundreds of new people on places like Twitter and Instagram who look nothing like your 'traditional Warhammer player' getting excited by it, getting into it all for the first time, sharing stories and art, showing off conversions, providing painting tips, creating communities. Tap into this.

Look beyond your own circles, welcome new people in, make your group exciting, open minded, a welcoming space that encourages new people, that lifts the game, and those that play it, up that celebrates all aspects of the game. Then in 3 years time 'The Old World', whatever it actually is, will just be another string to your bow to bring more people in, create new stories and do different stuff.

And anyway churn is real, a huge percentage of people into the hobby today won't be into it in 3 years, not because of anything bad but people's lives and priorities change, they drift away, they have kids, get jobs that take up their lives, their acne clears and they discover sex, drugs, drink and music, and then they come back when they're ready, all these things are natural.

If your enjoyment of the game is dependent on having a big group of people then you need to accept that and put the work in to keep attracting new people to the game, we're all just lucky in that there's never been a better or easier time to do so.

Very good points. Definitely having more systems to choose from shouldn't be a Zero Sum Game, but there definitely seem to be communities where it is a legitimate concern.

I've started another thread to talk about ways to grow gaming groups, and try to ensure that more options bring in more people, and cater to more tastes, rather than just creating smaller cliques and edition wars.

 

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The people here that play more than one system are not common, so this talk about how people are going to play AOS and this new WHFB version does not apply to my community.  They tend to find a game and stick with it.  The only exception is 40k.  Everyone plays 40k because everyone plays 40k.  

My AOS group will literally split in half.  Those players that are wanting to split off don't want to play AOS if they had a WHFB version to play.  They are only going to focus on the WHFB version.  Hell the way it looked last weekend, there were MORE whfb players than AOS players.

Which is why I hope that its nothing more than campaign books using the AOS rules.  That way we are all still playing the same rules and the group doesn't split in half and lower our tournament attendance.

Edited by Dead Scribe

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17 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

The people here that play more than one system are not common, so this talk about how people are going to play AOS and this new WHFB version does not apply to my community.  They tend to find a game and stick with it.  The only exception is 40k.  Everyone plays 40k because everyone plays 40k.  

My AOS group will literally split in half.  Those players that are wanting to split off don't want to play AOS if they had a WHFB version to play.  They are only going to focus on the WHFB version.  Hell the way it looked last weekend, there were MORE whfb players than AOS players.

You're overreacting.

Who would have thought the newly announced product many people have been hoping to see for years would inspire people to suddenly bring out their old collections, many of which will have been gathering dust, all in anticipation?

If 40k comes out with 9th Edition next year and for a couple of weeks there's almost none playing AoS does that mean it's going to be dead forever? No, it's healthy hype and excitement that's to be expected. 

Edited by Clan's Cynic
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The difference is that 40k is not fantasy.  AOS is fantasy.  Our fantasy community plays AOS.  With this we have ANOTHER fantasy game coming out that is going to split us up.  I don't want there to be multiple supported fantasy games from GW.  I never would have played in the first place if they had more than one fantasy system vying for each others' attention.

 

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1 minute ago, Dead Scribe said:

The difference is that 40k is not fantasy.  AOS is fantasy.  Our fantasy community plays AOS.  With this we have ANOTHER fantasy game coming out that is going to split us up.  I don't want there to be multiple supported fantasy games from GW.  I never would have played in the first place if they had more than one fantasy system vying for each others' attention.

 

Lord of the Rings? And it's hell of a lot closer to AoS' ruleset than WHFB was.

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12 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

The difference is that 40k is not fantasy.  AOS is fantasy.  Our fantasy community plays AOS.  With this we have ANOTHER fantasy game coming out that is going to split us up.  I don't want there to be multiple supported fantasy games from GW.  I never would have played in the first place if they had more than one fantasy system vying for each others' attention.

 

What community would you have gone for then? Because I get the feeling that even half an AoS group is probably going to be bigger than most other fantasy game groups. 

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I have never seen anyone play Lord of the Rings or even know it exists other than as a banner on their website.  

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Just now, Still-young said:

What community would you have gone for then? Because I get the feeling that even half an AoS group is probably going to be bigger than most other fantasy game groups. 

Half of our aos group is still half of our aos group.  You can't do meaningful tournaments with half of your population.  Six or eight man tournaments are not something that I care for at all.  Especially if you are trying to make some money off of livestreaming or tournament endorsement awards etc.  This cuts into the ability to generate revenue for competitive tournament events.

If magic the gathering tournaments only had a handful of people showing up, no one would bother playing it.  It is because you can go into pretty much any store and see 100 people playing at a tournament that people care to be a part of it.  Same with 40k.   For AOS to succeed as a financially driven tournament game, it requires a higher level of attendance, and this just seems to knee cap that.

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Maybe Magic is the game for you then. I can’t really see how 12-16 man tournaments are any more lucrative than 6-8 man tournaments. 

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There is your mistake. You think that AoS is a tournament game. GW's games are  usually better suited for beer and pretzel style  - 3rd ed of WFB was more like RPG than wargame. I think to keep your community thriving you need to attract some fresh blood and for that you should diversify your games: a bit of open, a bit of skirmish, abit of narrative, a bit of matched....

 

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14 hours ago, RexHavoc said:

The HH is going to be in it's death throes by then (at a rate of about three books a year and there is bound to be a wait on the last couple) and AoS is going to be either due an update or just had one.

At the Weekender in February they were saying they could see another 10+ years worth of black books for Age of Darkness.  They're basically about half way along.

54 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

The people here that play more than one system are not common, so this talk about how people are going to play AOS and this new WHFB version does not apply to my community.  They tend to find a game and stick with it.  The only exception is 40k.  Everyone plays 40k because everyone plays 40k. 

Roughly how many people would you say are within your local area?

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People in my area also tend to play one game at a time. When a LotR league started up over the summer it was an absolute nightmare trying to find an AoS game. People showed up on game nights, played their games for the league, and went home. When warcry dropped there was a bunch of interest, but AoS won out and nobody plays warcry anymore. My group has about 20 or so active players. If it counts for anything, I also stick to one due to the monetary and time investments trying to get armies up and running. Plus I get one game in every few weeks typically, so it's not like I get really bored and need to switch things up.

I don't know if Fantasy would win out over AoS here, but we do have a bunch of old school fans. I'm sure it'd be enough to make a dent initially, but after that who knows if they'd come back or not. 

Edit: Maybe it's a north american thing? I know in Canada we pay a decent markup for miniatures so that might have some impact. I've been gaming for almost 20 years now and I can't think of a single person I've met that actively played more than one game for any length of time. I've seen some people try, but they always seemed to settle on one or the other. 

Edited by Grimrock
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