Warhammer - The Old World

[Jator]

Just now, FFJump said:

At the bottom of that article they posted another map "of Kislev as it appeared in the time of heroes like Louen Orc-Slayer." I noticed something very interesting to me personally.

Chaos Dwarfs represented on the map  .

You can also see "the nation of the hobgobla-khans". But two games teasing with hobgoblins it's more than what my heart can handle.

[FFJump]

It's the old-school icon too which is cool. Never thought I'd see that again in a newer publication outside of Blood Bowl.

[silverstu]

I'm loving the giant bear elementals and bear calvary .. map wise - Norse Dwarfs please!! Norse dwarfs would be good to develop- not seen in ages, get the dwarf fans in and cross over with dispossessed and KO [norse KO would be fun!]. Very excited for the new game - hoping these things come in plastic rather than resin but guessing plastic will be dedicated to rank and file. 

[sandlemad]

Lot of extremely cool stuff in those previews, especially how they're sticking with the older ideas underlying Kislev as a faction: having distinctions between the various levies, the central forces of the Tzar(ina), the cult of Ursun, and the institutionalised body of ice mages/warriors directly affiliated with Katarin.

Personally streltsi having combined gun-axes isn't quite as cool as them having muskets and separate hefty bardiche axes to act as gunrests, and a cannon mounted on a magical carpet of ice is a bit high fantasy for me (still not keen on the sheer preponderance of magical ice weapons/armour in a lowish fantasy human faction), but it's still good to see how CA and FW have expanded here.

[TheTuninator]

23 minutes ago, sandlemad said:

Lot of extremely cool stuff in those previews, especially how they're sticking with the older ideas underlying Kislev as a faction: having distinctions between the various levies, the central forces of the Tzar(ina), the cult of Ursun, and the institutionalised body of ice mages/warriors directly affiliated with Katarin.

Personally streltsi having combined gun-axes isn't quite as cool as them having muskets and separate hefty bardiche axes to act as gunrests, and a cannon mounted on a magical carpet of ice is a bit high fantasy for me (still not keen on the sheer preponderance of magical ice weapons/armour in a lowish fantasy human faction), but it's still good to see how CA and FW have expanded here.

I think the "low fantasy" concerns are a bit off, personally. Bretonnia is arguably the most "low fantasy"/"grounded" faction in WHFB and even they have elite units who are demigods with divine superpowers. Every single faction in WHFB is "high fantasy", even Bretonnia and the Empire. I totally get people wanting lots of utterly normal rank & file troops, believe me (Bretonnia is my favorite faction, after all ) but over-the-top Rare troops are pretty normal for even the human factions in WHFB.

[sandlemad]

I get that and it's an old argument at this stage but seeing rank upon rank of human troops with glaives/bows of enchanted ice, units of gryphon legion and war-bear riders with ice-spike peppered armour, and a type of cannon that moves around purely by magic comes off as a scale that makes me grimace a little. Even High Elves don't have it to that degree, with maybe two particularly visibly magical units.

It's always going to be a matter of degree here and as ever YMMV. Had it been, e.g. ice weapons for heroes and champions or even just some sort of less numerous more-elite version of the Ice Guard, and the cannon on a sled or classic Kislevite war-wagon apparatus, I'd be happier. As is it seems like they're handing this stuff out like candy when e.g. the dwarf army books made much of weapons with magical runes being rare things. It's by no means the worst but the volume is offputting.

Oh and if I'm having a moan then the names used were rather poor. 'War-Bear Riders' is a bit blunt. Doesn't have to be AoS-style Grizzlebrow Fangmaulers or something but 'Chosen of Ursun' or 'Ursus Knights' or something. Same with 'Elemental Bear', ridiculously cool unit, placeholder name. 'Spirit of Kislev' ("Kislev is the land, and the land is Kislev") or similar would have been better. 'Little Grom' as the affectionate name for the cannon is fantastic though.

[TheTuninator]

3 hours ago, sandlemad said:

I get that and it's an old argument at this stage but seeing rank upon rank of human troops with glaives/bows of enchanted ice, units of gryphon legion and war-bear riders with ice-spike peppered armour, and a type of cannon that moves around purely by magic comes off as a scale that makes me grimace a little. Even High Elves don't have it to that degree, with maybe two particularly visibly magical units.

It's always going to be a matter of degree here and as ever YMMV. Had it been, e.g. ice weapons for heroes and champions or even just some sort of less numerous more-elite version of the Ice Guard, and the cannon on a sled or classic Kislevite war-wagon apparatus, I'd be happier. As is it seems like they're handing this stuff out like candy when e.g. the dwarf army books made much of weapons with magical runes being rare things. It's by no means the worst but the volume is offputting.

Oh and if I'm having a moan then the names used were rather poor. 'War-Bear Riders' is a bit blunt. Doesn't have to be AoS-style Grizzlebrow Fangmaulers or something but 'Chosen of Ursun' or 'Ursus Knights' or something. Same with 'Elemental Bear', ridiculously cool unit, placeholder name. 'Spirit of Kislev' ("Kislev is the land, and the land is Kislev") or similar would have been better. 'Little Grom' as the affectionate name for the cannon is fantastic though.

Looking at the TW roster, HE have at least 4 overtly magical units, being Sisters of Avelorn, Dragon Princes, the various phoenixes, and the various dragons. Might be I'm forgetting one or two as well, but it's definitely more than two.

[Warfiend]

When some youtuber asked one of the developers of TWW3 if he knew if Cathay was going to be part of the old world, He replied that he didn't know anything about that but that GW was heavily involved with the design of the faction just like with Kislev.

Which is in contrast to most other factions, although GW always had the final say. With other "underdeveloped" armies like the vampire coast and norsca they were given much more of a free reign and it were the game developers who dug through the old lore to find interesting units.

obviously cathay is most lacking when it comes to lore but some see it as proof they're making an old world cathay army.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Warfiend

[Vomikron]

2 minutes ago, Warfiend said:

When some youtuber asked one of the developers of TWW3 if he knew if Cathay was going to be part of the old world, He replied that he didn't know anything about that but that GW was heavily involved with the design of the faction just like with Kislev.

Which is in contrast to most other factions, although GW always had the final say. With other "underdeveloped" armies like the vampire coast and norsca they were given much more of a free reign and it were the game developers who dug through the old lore to find interesting units.

obviously cathay is most lacking when it comes to lore but some see it as proof they're making an old world cathay army.

I hope is not true personally. One aspect of WHFB was the somewhat limited scope of the world. There were whole continents that were completely unexplored and the sense of the unknown adds an extra weight to the setting. I loved the small rumors and stories that existed within the narrative about Cathay and Ind but adding them as an army would really throw off the feel of the Old World. What is Cathay doing roaming around in the Reiklands?

[SeanMaguire1991]

15 minutes ago, Vomikron said:

I hope is not true personally. One aspect of WHFB was the somewhat limited scope of the world. There were whole continents that were completely unexplored and the sense of the unknown adds an extra weight to the setting. I loved the small rumors and stories that existed within the narrative about Cathay and Ind but adding them as an army would really throw off the feel of the Old World. What is Cathay doing roaming around in the Reiklands?

I will never understand this kind of thinking. Who cares why the Cathayans are in the Old World I wanna see French Knights Clash with Qing Chinese Bannermen.

[TheTuninator]

1 hour ago, Warfiend said:

When some youtuber asked one of the developers of TWW3 if he knew if Cathay was going to be part of the old world, He replied that he didn't know anything about that but that GW was heavily involved with the design of the faction just like with Kislev.

Which is in contrast to most other factions, although GW always had the final say. With other "underdeveloped" armies like the vampire coast and norsca they were given much more of a free reign and it were the game developers who dug through the old lore to find interesting units.

obviously cathay is most lacking when it comes to lore but some see it as proof they're making an old world cathay army.

Wasn't Coast completely developed off of the old White Dwarf army list? My impression was that GW retained extremely tight control over the design of all new factions.

[Vomikron]

1 hour ago, SeanMaguire1991 said:

I will never understand this kind of thinking. Who cares why the Cathayans are in the Old World I wanna see French Knights Clash with Qing Chinese Bannermen.

To each his own. As a western civ history buff I liked WHFB for the European setting. The unknown regions hinted at a bigger world and that mystery was cool. 

[Snorri Nelriksson]

I'd prefer them to start with the classic armies first than Cathay, while i'd have bought them immediately during whfb times now with TOW project they should concentrate more on the old faction redesigned for the new timeline and also bring back the squatted armies like Bretonnia.
IIRC the empire for example should not have battlemages as the colleges of magic were created with Magnus the Pious.

[Nos]

20 hours ago, sandlemad said:

I get that and it's an old argument at this stage but seeing rank upon rank of human troops with glaives/bows of enchanted ice, units of gryphon legion and war-bear riders with ice-spike peppered armour, and a type of cannon that moves around purely by magic comes off as a scale that makes me grimace a little. Even High Elves don't have it to that degree, with maybe two particularly visibly magical units.

It's always going to be a matter of degree here and as ever YMMV. Had it been, e.g. ice weapons for heroes and champions or even just some sort of less numerous more-elite version of the Ice Guard, and the cannon on a sled or classic Kislevite war-wagon apparatus, I'd be happier. As is it seems like they're handing this stuff out like candy when e.g. the dwarf army books made much of weapons with magical runes being rare things. It's by no means the worst but the volume is offputting.

Oh and if I'm having a moan then the names used were rather poor. 'War-Bear Riders' is a bit blunt. Doesn't have to be AoS-style Grizzlebrow Fangmaulers or something but 'Chosen of Ursun' or 'Ursus Knights' or something. Same with 'Elemental Bear', ridiculously cool unit, placeholder name. 'Spirit of Kislev' ("Kislev is the land, and the land is Kislev") or similar would have been better. 'Little Grom' as the affectionate name for the cannon is fantastic though.

The more personalised names likes the above tend to be reserved for Regiments of Renown in Twarhammer. Every faction gets access to half a dozen units which don't require the tech tree prerequisites, they all have a more Yeoman type epithet.

[Envyus]

On 5/13/2021 at 2:30 PM, Jator said:

You can also see "the nation of the hobgobla-khans". But two games teasing with hobgoblins it's more than what my heart can handle.

What's teased with Hobgoblins in AoS?

[Beliman]

2 hours ago, Envyus said:

What's teased with Hobgoblins in AoS?

The second army in the starter set for AoS 3.0 is rumoured to be an army of "bigger than goblins and smaller than orcs" new breed of greenskinz. 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Beliman

[RexHavoc]

On 5/12/2021 at 7:21 PM, Clan's Cynic said:

I'm usually the last person to beat the "GW are worried about 3D printing" drum but I think when it comes to 15mm there's some truth to it. The detail at 15mm is so minimal that it would take very little trouble for people to replicate the sprues almost identically and it wouldn't take long at all for duplicates to circulate, whether that people printing them off and selling them, or people just buying a printer for personal use.

I suspect this is also why we won't see Epic no matter how successful Titanicus is.

Also, Warmaster was a flop and Battle of the Five Armies was a flop, whilst for all people talk about WHFB having been a 'dead game' (it wasn't) it's one that did last around twenty years, as opposed to Warmaster's one and BotFA's- well, it had it's launch and that was it.

I say this as somebody who's gotten pretty deep into the 12mm-15mm side of wargaming recently. I'd be fine if was 15mm, but I just don't see it happening.

Yeah, 15mm seems to be the threat GW worries about. There is a company producing both 6mm and 15mm minis for sci-fi, who's main target audience is 40k fans (Epic specifically). GW haven't battered an eye lid at the 6mm stuff, but orders for 15mm samples were made by GW head office. Either they keep their eye on scales/sculpts to see if its a market they ever want to get into or that they worry that more people will move into 15mm 40k due to the cost. 6mm has a huge following, but its harder to convince people that are hooked on 28mm to move to 6mm, as they perceive it to be harder to paint and less detailed.

I don't see them doing fantasy in anything other than 28mm (or at least their version of 28mm/32mm/heroic scale stuff)

I'd like to think I'd be all over a smaller scale/warmater redo if they were too do it again now- but in truth I've so much 6mm fantasy it would be hard to convince me to go to 10mm or 15mm now.

[Envyus]

18 hours ago, Beliman said:

The second army in the starter set for AoS 3.0 is rumoured to be an army of "bigger than goblins and smaller than orcs" new breed of greenskinz. 

That's just rumor it looks more like Fimir to me. 

[AaronWilson]

People talking about WHFB not being that "Magical" clearly aren't remembering the Lorthern Skycutter, which floated around by magic dragged by a eagle. 

[RuneBrush]

On 5/15/2021 at 1:06 AM, Warfiend said:

When some youtuber asked one of the developers of TWW3 if he knew if Cathay was going to be part of the old world, He replied that he didn't know anything about that but that GW was heavily involved with the design of the faction just like with Kislev.

Which is in contrast to most other factions, although GW always had the final say. With other "underdeveloped" armies like the vampire coast and norsca they were given much more of a free reign and it were the game developers who dug through the old lore to find interesting units.

obviously cathay is most lacking when it comes to lore but some see it as proof they're making an old world cathay army.

Think GW are taking a little more hands on approach with games under some circumstances.  The first Necromunda computer game had a huge amount of involvement from an aesthetic angle - I'm sure I read that all of "scenery" was scrapped and redone because of the unreleased ZM scenery.  Mark Bedford has pages worth of concept art for Kislev and we know it's a playable faction in The Old World, so would imagine GW wanted to make sure there was enough cross over between the computer game and what we may see on the tabletop.

[Beliman]

11 hours ago, AaronWilson said:

People talking about WHFB not being that "Magical" clearly aren't remembering the Lorthern Skycutter, which floated around by magic dragged by a eagle. 

That happens from time to time.

Some people had issues with Kislev riding bears from Total War Warhammer 3, but Tuomas Pirinen wrote (for some White Dwarfs) a list that had one riding bear unit (Sons of Ursa). WF RPG was grounded, but we still had supplements with flying towers, boxed games with flying ships and battle games between magic users summoning portals.

I would say that Warhammer Fantasy had everything. At a specific time, the game was more grounded, but in another, it was crazy and anything inbetween.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Beliman

[AaronWilson]

I mean their certainly were aspects that were grounded, Empire was very grounded in human regimental training but had the collegiate of magic, they had their warrior priests who drew strength from a god etc. 

WHFB Had dragons, to phoenixes, to undead dragons, to chaos dragons, manticores, chimeras, trolls, I mean it's as fantasy as you can get. 

I agree it's not as high fantasy/outlandish but when people tell me WHFB was "very grounded" and "not very fantasy with not much magic" I don't remember the same game as them. 

[Beastmaster]

3 hours ago, Beliman said:

That happens from time to time.

Some people had issues with Kislev riding bears from Total War Warhammer 3, but Tuomas Pirinen wrote for White Dwarfs a unit witht he name of Sons of Ursa that was exactly that. WF RPG was grounded, but we still had supplements with flying towers, boxed games with flying ships and battle games between magic users summoning portals.

I would say that Warhammer Fantasy had everything. At a specific time, the game was more grounded, but in another, it was crazy and anything inbetween.

Wfrp was just more grounded because of the chosen perspective (most characters being simple, superstitious and quite ignorant empire humans) and scope (mainly playing in the Empire, no large battles occurring). Everything more outlandish still existed and could be incorporated or completely left out as just some wild rumors as preferred by the players and gamemaster. Which was very clever for an RPG.

Whereas WFB was wild and, it seems, did get wilder over time. But it still did have cores of basic, nonmagical troops with standard weaponry in almost every army, and most armies were composed in a traditional Infantry/Cavalry/Artillery style.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Beastmaster

[Beastmaster]

(where’s the edit button?) 

edit. Found it. 😅

Edited May 17, 2021 by Beastmaster

[Greybeard86]

On the topic of "grounded" vs "crazy" or "high fantasy" vs "low fantasy". Personally, I loved the balance that was achieved in WHFB prior to 8th edition.

While I love some AoS sculpts (I am collecting a Goblins & Trolls army), I think sometimes the setting is so over the top that nothing feels "special". We discussed some time ago the case of dwarves, which went from a diverse faction grounded on a more "down to earth" core to separate themes of extremes.

Before we had some naked dwarves with crazy hair and axes. They stood out because they looked "insane" compared to regular dwarf clansmen / warriors. Now they look "sameish" in a faction of "all slAyeRs", to the point that it is hard to tell apart what units they are supposed to represent. We also have the "steam punk" theme, with gyrocopters and various warmachines. It looked special, but once you make a whole "steam punk" dwarf faction, it gets lost.

I think this was a major issue with the design of AoS. I heard it was supposed to be seasonal, like the current AoS based mini-games, with armies with narrow ranges and constant renewal. I think this was discarted at some point, but armies like fyreslayers have never recovered. So small ranges and hiper focused wacky sculpts /units that you paint in a year and rotate out. As opposed to slowly growing collections decades old. The setting in AoS also reflects that, evolving and with flashy events; do not forget that the setting is mostly marketing to sell miniatures.

Now, for TOW I'd like the return of the old design philosophy. More grounded, larger collections within an army, support for a longer time.