Warhammer - The Old World

[Johann]

1 hour ago, Nezzhil said:

I'm sure that GW isn't going to sell a game without the need to buy new miniatures...  Based on that premise I'm sure the armies we'll see are the armies they're thinking to sell well.

Chaos, Empire, Vampiresa, Dwarfs and/or Orcs. I don't think we'll see rules for other armies at the launch.

you forgot the elves!

Classics elves are missing in AoS and with almost everything discontinued from the high elves range, I guess they will sell well and had a huge fan base.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Johann

[JackStreicher]

16 hours ago, michu said:

I don't think it will happen... The whole FW's gimmick is resin miniatures as they can be more detailed than plastic. 

Wait what? I‘d argue that plastic is superior in every way. The Forgeworld gimmick with resin is however that moulds are freakin cheap to make and the material is also rather cheap (as is their quality but not their price).

[sandlemad]

GW's plastic has come on a lot but anyone who thinks that it's superior in terms of detail is way off. Whatever about material cost or casting quality, you're just not going to get fine work like below on a plastic miniature. Or even contrast the fur on the old ogre rhinoxen with basically any GW fur. Not every FW model reaches this kind of detail (e.g. a lot of the dreadful heresy space wolves range) but at its best it reaches heights GW can't touch.

[JackStreicher]

2 minutes ago, sandlemad said:

GW's plastic has come on a lot but anyone who thinks that it's superior in terms of detail is way off. Whatever about material cost or casting quality, you're just not going to get fine work like below on a plastic miniature. Or even contrast the fur on the old ogre rhinoxen with basically any GW fur. Not every FW model reaches this kind of detail (e.g. a lot of the dreadful heresy space wolves range) but at its best it reaches heights GW can't touch.

The thing is: for you it is detail, for me it is noise left by the hand sculpting. Imo the GW plastic can achieve this, but it won’t since it‘s 3D sculpted and therefor won‘t add details in a traditional manner.

[Beastmaster]

To be honest, there is already more detail in most models than my crappy painting skills can touch up... 😅

[sandlemad]

I mean the grain on the wood, the detail of the feathers or the fish scales, the rippled edges to the pauldrons, those aren't mistakes or accidental by-products "left by the hand sculpting", they're deliberate choices by the sculptor. How appropriate or attractive you feel this is is going to be down to personal preference but I can't think of a single GW plastic miniature that has that level of fine detail, 3D sculpted or otherwise.

That's not to say there aren't tons of great GW minis with striking design and good aesthethics, some of which even surpass their FW equivalents because of that, but this kind of very intricate detail just isn't a feature in the plastic sculptor's arsenal. At its best, that's one of resin's strengths.

Edited November 25, 2019 by sandlemad

[Overread]

Yep plastic still has a way to go before they can achieve resin levels of fine detailing on the models. However if you look at some of the plastics for Dropfleet/zone I'd say that they are getting very close with that formula. It's different to GW's plastic and I think the Dropfleet/zone plastic achieves a slightly sharper edge to details which helps achieve much finer detail. 

Of course I've no idea how this translates to moulds, GW might be using technology that allows their moulds to last much longer (more production) etc... I also agree that you can end up adding too much detail at times and one thing GW has been pretty strong on is realising that they are a gateway product for many into the market. It's why you don't see Infinity level painting on standard product displays for Warhammer models. Sure in competitions you see it, but their standard advertised models are generally shown at a very decent tabletop standard rather than prize winning. Infinity on the other hand, shows prize winning painting on their models which can be very hard for a beginner to even get close to emulating. 

[Vomikron]

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/11/op-ed-warhammer-the-old-world-should-go-to-15mm.html

Interesting article that raises a few good points in favor of 15mm. I don’t see it as likely though as if it was a return to 15mm they wold have just called it Warmaster in the announcement.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Vomikron

[Moldek]

28 minutes ago, Vomikron said:

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/11/op-ed-warhammer-the-old-world-should-go-to-15mm.html

Interesting article that raises a few good points in favor of 15mm. I don’t see it as likely though as if it was a return to 15mm they wold have just called it Warmaster in the announcement.

I’d be surprised if they went that direction but it could honestly make for a cool game. Huge armies at a small scale would allow for some sincerely impressive battles, and cool scenery opportunity too. Warhammer fantasy tables often looked a tad underwhelming to me. With 15 or even 10 mm you can have rivers running across the board and such, instead of 2 clumps of trees and a small house in the corner...

[CDM]

29 minutes ago, Vomikron said:

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/11/op-ed-warhammer-the-old-world-should-go-to-15mm.html

Interesting article that raises a few good points in favor of 15mm. I don’t see it as likely though as if it was a return to 15mm they wold have just called it Warmaster in the announcement.

.  I dont think the base size is all that important in the reveal. They just need to bring the setting back dont they? 15mm does make more sense to have large scale battles but has the problem of in validating older models and cross play with AoS. 

I think most are right in thinking they'll start fairly small with maybe 6-8factions at launch if it was 28mm. If its 15 mm I can see being expanded on much quicker. 

I'm leaning towards warmaster scale

[Nezzhil]

1 hour ago, Vomikron said:

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/11/op-ed-warhammer-the-old-world-should-go-to-15mm.html

Interesting article that raises a few good points in favor of 15mm. I don’t see it as likely though as if it was a return to 15mm they wold have just called it Warmaster in the announcement.

If I had to place a bet between the rules, I think Old World will be more close to Warmaster than Fantasy... The scale i think will be 28mm, but the rules is another thing

[Vomikron]

It just occurred to me that contrast paints would make painting Warmaster scale a breeze.

[Vomikron]

2 minutes ago, Nezzhil said:

If I had to place a bet between the rules, I think Old World will be more close to Warmaster than Fantasy... The scale i think will be 28mm, but the rules is another thing

Maybe like the current Apocalypse rules?

[Beastmaster]

I wouldn’t buy into another 28mm army. A 15mm, however, may be low enough in initial investment to be worth a try...

[Nezzhil]

4 minutes ago, Vomikron said:

Maybe like the current Apocalypse rules?

No, Warmaster was a game centered in position and the influence of the heroes.

If you play a few games, you could think... OMG, it's Total War: Warhammer "The Tabletop game"...

[EccentricCircle]

28 mm is a standard across the miniatures industry though, and not just for wargames, so I'm not sure that GW would deliberately deviate from it, particularly for a game which will allow them to keep "classic fantasy" stuff in production.

Its easy to think that GW just want to scrap all of their classic fantasy stuff, and move to only producing models related to their distinct IP, certainly that is the way AoS has been going, and 40K did so a long time ago. However I think that would actually be a mistake. Ideally GW want everyone to only play their games, and buy models which can only be used for their games. However that isn't ever going to actually be the case.

There is a growing market for people who don't care about warhammer at all, but do want a model of an elf or a dwarf to use as their D&D character. I'm very much on the RPG side of the hobby, so I frequently see people who don't buy full armies, but do buy a squad of goblins or beastmen here or there, to use for an RPG, or sometimes for more "model agnostic" wargames like frostgrave.

I know a lot of RPG players who have gotten into the hobby recently, and want to buy and paint their first mini. They don't know all of the options, so naturally gravitate towards the brand that they've heard of, and which has a shop on every high street. However they don't want to buy a Kharadron Overlord, or a Fyreslayer, because they don't know what those are. If they go into games workshop and find that they can't just buy a normal dwarf, then some are going to be put off, and look elsewhere, whcih is also increasingly easy. This means that they won't be tempted to look into Warhammer further, or pick up any of the other cool stuff they see while in there.

Games Workshop have been the market leader in wargamming for a long time and that can breed a certain complacency. If they believe that their brand and their IP is the be all and end all, then they risk being in for a nasty shock if the bubble bursts, or something happens in pop culture which makes the over the top fantasy aesthetic of Age of Sigmar fall out of fashion. Conversely there will always be a bit of a market for the stuff that's stood the test of time for decades, even if it isn't currently in vogue.

I think they do know this, because its notable that despite discontinuing a lot with Cities of Sigmar, they have kept at least one standard kit in production for each of the main fantasy archetypes. You can still buy traditional dwarves and elves with bows, even if the variety isn't as great as it once was, or you have to look to Lord of the Rings rather than Warhammer.

One of the worrying things about the Cities of Sigmar discontinuations, is that we largely saw GW stop making most of the models that were appropriate for single RPG characters, like the wood elf and High elf heroes, and the warrior priests. There are a few left, but in no way a coherant range. GW's hero figure variety hadn't been great for a long time, but even so this can be seen as them effectively ceding the field, and leaving an entire, growing, sector of the fantasy miniatures market open for Reaper and Wizkids. For the time being I suspect the Warhammer brand is strong enough that that won't be a problem, but the more popular RPGs become, with streaming bringing in new blood, the bigger that section of the market is going to get.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if one day games workshop look at that, and decide they need to release packs of hero figures like the ones that Citadel started out making before Warhammer was a twinkle in their eye.

[SentinelGuy]

The AoS lore is bland and the novels are almost universally terrible. I'm not keen on many of the AoS models, they are cluttered and the rules are as unbalanced as ever. The original arguments for AoS such as it being cheaper and requiring fewer books have all been shown to be false. 

Bring on the Old World and square bases. My Book of Grudges has been opened and I may be able to use all my old minis again. 

Edited November 25, 2019 by SentinelGuy

[MaatithoftheBrand]

25 minutes ago, SentinelGuy said:

The AoS lore is bland and the novels are almost universally terrible. I'm not keen on many of the AoS models, they are cluttered and the rules are as unbalanced as ever. The original arguments for AoS such as it being cheaper and requiring fewer books have all been shown to be false. 

Bring on the Old World and square bases. My Book of Grudges has been opened and I may be able to use all my old minis again. 

Can I ask why you are an individual on an AoS forum?

[SentinelGuy]

33 minutes ago, MaatithoftheBrand said:

Can I ask why you are an individual on an AoS forum?

My gaming group plays AoS so I end up playing it

[Overread]

In fairness the original arguments that it required less books was mostly because it really didn't have any. Once GW shifted off that and back to a standard format its no surprise that the game reverted to a more "normal" GW state of Battletomes and rulebooks with expansion rule packs etc... 

 

As for the lore, the early lore was hampered. The Realmwar books, whilst establishing the foundation, are not the best. However I'd argue that the lore has moved on and whilst there are some gaps and questions, the actual writing is as good as the Old World and 40K. Accepting that there is a degree of nostalgia going on with some of the older material which means newer stuff will "never beat the old stuff". Plus there's been a shift in style as AoS is very much "epic" scale whilst old world was far more low key and sometimes even fully low magic with mutants. 

 

That said hopefully the new Old World game does let you get those old models out and using them on the table once again

[zilberfrid]

5 hours ago, SentinelGuy said:

The AoS lore is bland and the novels are almost universally terrible. I'm not keen on many of the AoS models, they are cluttered and the rules are as unbalanced as ever. The original arguments for AoS such as it being cheaper and requiring fewer books have all been shown to be false. 

Bring on the Old World and square bases. My Book of Grudges has been opened and I may be able to use all my old minis again. 

AoS's rules are still a lot better than 8th of fantasy.

There are balance problems, sure, but the game is young, and they can be fixed.

[Vomikron]

I think the fondness for the Old World is more than nostalgia for most people. Sure, I got into Fantasy back in 5th edition but I didn’t really play any games until I found 40k. As much as I love 40k the Fantasy setting is still the one I prefer thematically.

 

i think it’s simply a matter of personal taste. The mythological might and operatic glory of AoS vs the down and dirty Old World. Both have fantastic elements but its all different strokes for different folks. There’s more than enough hobby to go around.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Vomikron

[Golgfag]

Bashing of both settings from a minority on each side needs to stop, now that the Old World is coming back, there is room for us all to enjoy the kind of fantasy setting we love delivered by GW.

I would never wish ill on AoS, it is just not my style of fantasy, never has been and other then a small collection of Fyreslayers, none of the AoS specific armies have got me interested enough to really embrace it but I am open to that changing with whatever armies they release in the next few years. 

I am just delighted the setting I spent fifteen years enjoying is coming back in whatever form, as it never should have been killed off and I doubt it would have been if the drastic change of management had happened sooner, they could have supported both settings along side each other from the start if they had wished.

[gjnoronh]

6 minutes ago, Golgfag said:

Bashing of both settings from a minority on each side needs to stop, now that the Old World is coming back, there is room for us all to enjoy the kind of fantasy setting we love delivered by GW.

I would never wish ill on AoS, it is just not my style of fantasy, never has been and other then a small collection of Fyreslayers, none of the AoS specific armies have got me interested enough to really embrace it but I am open to that changing with whatever armies they release in the next few years. 

I am just delighted the setting I spent fifteen years enjoying is coming back in whatever form, as it never should have been killed off and I doubt it would have been if the drastic change of management had happened sooner, they could have supported both settings along side each other from the start if they had wished.

I started playing WFB in 1990 so i've got a real love of the setting as well.  I personally don't think they could have done both side by side and have AoS take off as the commercial success it is.   But that's supposition on my part as well.   I do think there is strong evidence GW thinks the AoS core rules premises were a huge success -  40K core rules are now based essentially on AoS - the last time that happened was first edition 40K.       I do think they could have handled the transition much much better then they did however!  

[Deepkin]

I think the best version of the setting was in Mordheim and WFRP (2nd and 4th editions...3rd shall not be spoken of. 1st was wacky and cool as well) and its that sort of grittiness that I loved about the Old World. Magic is rare, mistrusted and ill-understood. Chaos is everpresent beneath the surface. The woods are dark and full of terror. The cities are rank with human greed and stupidity, with mutation and cults and religious fanaticism. The end is nigh, ignorance runs unchecked, and John Blanche illustrates everything

7th and 8th started to lose me as they went more high fantasy. Hell, I still play Mordheim. Best game GW ever made.