Warhammer - The Old World

[Clan's Cynic]

1 minute ago, IneptusAstartes said:

Which is depressing because AoS is a far more interesting setting than TOW ever was, but I guess in this age of ruthless capitalism derivative generic fantasy is going to be a safer stockholder investment than any attempts at originality. 😢

You're really going to deride WHFB for this when AoS was made to sell Fantasy Space Marines?

[Panzer]

8 minutes ago, Wobbly said:

So...? How does it tell us how square bases will be used? Will all miniatures use them? Will they instead be square trays with inserts for round bases? Does only infantry blocks use them? Where it only used as that was a very visual and remembered difference from AOS?

The answer to all that is that we don´t really know. It was only used in the promotion video for the announcement of a game that is years and years away. It can be a hint of things to come (bases) to be used but also as a tool for nostalgia and a pure marketing strategy.

Until we actually get more information I´d say we don´t actually know anything besides the game is supposed to be based in the Old World and that´s it!

I mean, sure you are free to ignore the obvious and decide to be blind to it until you see the rules. Whatever floats your boat.

[Wobbly]

5 minutes ago, Panzer said:

I mean, sure you are free to ignore the obvious and decide to be blind to it until you see the rules. Whatever floats your boat.

I actually rather keep on being sceptical and keep an open mind until I actually get access to information (leaks or official) as the game development goes on. I never have been keen on hyping stuff up on small teased stuff and build air castles out of it.

If you go back and read what I wrote you´ll see that I didn't say that square bases wont be used. I only said that they where used in the announce promotion and then asked questions on how they´ll be used in the game. There´s quite a bit of possible ways that GW can go with how they utilize bases in a game that lies years ahead.

But as you said whatever floats your boat I guess.

[Beliman]

11 minutes ago, IneptusAstartes said:

Which is depressing because AoS is a far more interesting setting than TOW ever was, but I guess in this age of ruthless capitalism derivative generic fantasy is going to be a safer stockholder investment than any attempts at originality. 😢

Being "good" or "bad" is something subjective and  irrelevant. 
Btw, I don't think that AoS will be pushed aside. Cubicle 7 is going to release a new rol playing book, making the setting a bit more "grounded". At some point (maybe next year?), we are going to have all AoS armies fleshed out and playing in the same league/ edition.
In other words, AoS has one of the most bright futures!! 

[shinros]

25 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

You're really going to deride WHFB for this when AoS was made to sell Fantasy Space Marines?

I would actually agree with him WHFB is a pretty generic and static setting in my opinion. Stormcast actually have far more layers character wise than Space Marines, it's a failing of 40k that they are focused on so much and more than half of the armies in the setting wear some form of power armour. 

If the lore is so terrible why are the books selling more than WHFB? How come soul wars the new edition book reached horus heresy in terms of sales. (According to Josh Reynolds.) 

Edited November 17, 2019 by shinros

[Orsino]

15 hours ago, Indecisive said:

They really should've waited until they had a concrete plan of what they're planning to do with it. As now we've been locked into years of arguing and fearmongering about whether they'd bin another setting.

One thing I think we can say with certainty is that they're not going to bin AoS when this comes out, AoS is doing well for GW, this is expansion rather than replacement.

And hopefully we won't be arguing for the next three years, there's a lot of people getting a little bit overexcited because the announcement has just dropped and it was a surprise. Things will settle down as people run out of stuff to say about a logo. At some point in the future we will get more information about this, and people will over-react to that too, but once we know what this actually is the speculation will become less wild and people's fears will hopefully be put to rest. 

[Moldek]

Can we please not get into a fantasy vs aos match, especially based on the idea that one is good and the other bad? Especially while getting upset at the completely imaginary harm that one would do to the other?

[Inquisitorsz]

I think GW needs to very quickly address what's going to happen with these square bases. 

Moving everything to round and blowing up the old world was a HUGE deal. 

They risk going through all that anxiety and community backlash again. 

I don't really see the business benefit of having two competing games systems with incompatible miniatures and incompatible bases. 

If it's a different scale and we get a warmaster remake or some sort of fantasy adeptus titanicus then that's fine, the bases and compatibility doesn't matter. But a huge part of what makes 30k OK is that you can use a great deal of it in 40k.

I think it would be a massive misstep to make people choose between the two systems. 

[zedatkinszed]

18 hours ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

When I first heard this new, I am actually pretty happy because it might end the conflict between AOS players and T9A players around me forever. However, after one day of discussion, I think that things are more than just simply everyone happy.  Here is my personal ideas.How it will come out will depend on how GW will support the new WFB, which is called TOW now. 

[...]

First, I don't agree that this will bring the old WFB player to play AOS. In some chat groups discussion just hours ago, I can still sense the hatred of some old WFB player(maybe?I am pretty sure they play T9A) comment likes "AOS is a mistake, maybe GW thinks that it is time to fix this mistake".  Besides, for the old WFB player, if they are willing to play AOS, they already did, why wait till now that they can just go to play TOW?

TBH I don't think TOW has anything to do with the ppl lost when AOS launched. Change Management is a thing and one of its core tenets is that you won't take everyone with you. The die hard AOS haters will not be mollified by ANYTHING ever. A large subset of them probably hated GW before AOS and weren't buying GW product for WHFB anyway (and then they wonder why WHFB died).

TOW / HH for AOS will be targeted at AOS players who either were WHFB players or are WHFB-curious. The GW haters aren't the target market for this nor were they for AOS in the first place. It'll be a boutique game for AOS grognards and neck beards like me who can find another one who is willing to learn the new rules, buy the models and play the system (this is my experience of HH and Necromunda - YMMV). 

Any nonsense about GW's recent business decisions being a "mistake" is whining. And contradicted quite clearly by GW's share-price, earnings etc. What would have been a mistake was to keep WHFB going as was with no story progression, a delinquent fanbase who resented the company, and ppl like me who were well disposed to the game but who had bought everything they were ever going to buy 10 years ago. That's not a business model, that's a going-out-of-business model. 

TOW won't hurt AOS - like all FW products, it'll be high price with high shipping costs, and therefore for a smaller market just because of that.

Don't get me wrong I think it's cool and a great addition to the Warhammer family (and a way better solution than Legends) but the whining is nonsense.

Edited November 17, 2019 by zedatkinszed

[zilberfrid]

9 minutes ago, Moldek said:

Can we please not get into a fantasy vs aos match, especially based on the idea that one is good and the other bad? Especially while getting upset at the completely imaginary harm that one would do to the other?

Yes please! There are good things to both settings, and the game (whatever form it will take) is years away.

• There are still years for AoS to gather more players on its own, 3+. If it's 4, that's the entire lifespan of AoS again.
• By then the WHFB armies will be at least 8 years out of support, quite possibly 9. Tempers from both sides should have eased down by then, shoud they not?
• We don't know whether TOW will have to cater to LotR players, or that will still be its own line by then.
• We don't know whether it will be a full fledged miniature game.
• It is not certain it will be heroic scale.
• Even if it is in the same vein and in the same scale, having a game cater to two different intensities of fantasy could be beneficial, making the group as a whole bigger (I, for instance, was originally turned off AoS by Stormcast, but spurred on to look beyond and found it in Freeguild, someone else may find Bretonnia boring at a glance, before finding out about the Grail Relique and other more fantastical bits of the old world).

[michu]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

I think GW needs to very quickly address what's going to happen with these square bases. 

I'm not sure even GW knows for now... For me the whole "square bases"can be just a metaphor of  WFB not any indication of basing requirements...

I still think that it should be done as Warmaster.

[zilberfrid]

3 minutes ago, zedatkinszed said:

Change Management is a thing and one of its core tenets is that you won't take everyone with you.

That's one side of the coin, the other is that you need the people that are complaining. They at least care enough to complain. If you discuss your goals with them, you can adress the things that make them complain, and while the solutions may not be what they originally describe, they are a very valid source of information.

You can't discuss everything with everyone, and some people are very hard to get on board no matter what you do, but a few black hats from within the organisation are very useful.

What you don't want is an organisation where noone is complaining. They are either too afraid to poke their head out and be fired, or they just do not care about the whole.

[karch]

1 hour ago, Wobbly said:

I actually rather keep on being sceptical and keep an open mind until I actually get access to information (leaks or official) as the game development goes on. I never have been keen on hyping stuff up on small teased stuff and build air castles out of it.

If you go back and read what I wrote you´ll see that I didn't say that square bases wont be used. I only said that they where used in the announce promotion and then asked questions on how they´ll be used in the game. There´s quite a bit of possible ways that GW can go with how they utilize bases in a game that lies years ahead.

If a promo centered around square bases and linking square bases and the old world turned out to be anything other than a rank and file game in the old WHFB mould it would be the worst case of bait&switch ever.

[zedatkinszed]

1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

That's one side of the coin, the other is that you need the people that are complaining. They at least care enough to complain. If you discuss your goals with them, you can adress the things that make them complain, and while the solutions may not be what they originally describe, they are a very valid source of information.

You can't discuss everything with everyone, and some people are very hard to get on board no matter what you do, but a few black hats from within the organisation are very useful.

What you don't want is an organisation where noone is complaining. They are either too afraid to poke their head out and be fired, or they just do not care about the whole.

Yeah but that's not what's happening on the net with multiple Nerd culture fanbases. Comics, Star Wars, GoT etc etc. The rational dissenting voices are always a good thing (some in the writers room of GoT might have saved the show tbh). But the toxic "fanboi" (and TBH I use the word 'fan' extremely loosely) is a whole other issue.

Equating any change with what they describe as evil or nefarious ideologies,  mingled with a rigid entitled notion of what corporations "owe" them is not "a few black hats". It's an illness. And one not fixable by any act, decision or release GW (or Disney or WB or whoever) could, would or did make. These ppl HATE. In this case many hated GW  before AOS and I mean for years.

Reasonable ppl don't lie about criteria for judging business decisions - even if they dislike those decisions. And for the record I to this day do not agree with GW's WYSIWYG rules for heroes in AOS - I want to go back to the days when I could put my hero I bought in one box into a chariot or mounted on a horse / monster etc etc that did not come in the same box. This decision drives me insane. However, it is a good business decision and one reflected logically in the game system.

TL;DR whining doesn't help anyone.

Edited November 17, 2019 by zedatkinszed

[michu]

Well @karch, Warmaster is also based on square bases, right?

Edited November 17, 2019 by michu

[Overread]

GW showed regular square bases that Old World used and their interview short clip said that this would be to AoS what Horus Heresy is to 40K. That means the SAME SCALE. Unless GW says anything specifically to counter that then we can assume that the models will be made to the same scale as AoS. 

 

This also makes sense if its going to be a specialist Horus Heresy type game which might not feature all races and might focus on only a smaller subset of them. It might also focus on factions or races from the distant Old World history itself. Heck they could even go all the way back and give Tomb Kings before they were made undead! 

 

 

In the end what setting and models and races and factions is impossible to guess; the scale though is most likely to be teh same as AoS and as Old World was before. They've given no hint of a scale change. Casual reference to the scale and the logo are all they've confirmed and its all we are likely to get for a year or more. The rest is just wild guesswork on the part of fans. 

[karch]

4 minutes ago, michu said:

Well @karch, Warmaster is also based on square bases, right?

It ticks the old world and square bases boxes, and I'd certainly love new minis for it but:

1.- I don't see big centerpiece plastic GW going back to 10mm

2.- The base in the video is very much a WHFB base.

[Moldek]

While I agree that it would be a huge mistake to tease about square bases and end up with round ones (if only because they’ve become symbolic of the opposition between fantasy and aos), marketing teams in all kinds of companies have been known to play fast and loose with this kind of teasers.

If I remember correctly the video said something like « everything comes around, even squares ». So it might be a way of saying that the setting associated with square bases is coming « around » and being converted to round ones.

using square bases in my opinion would be bad because it would hinder cross compatibility between the 2 ranges. I’d much rather they’d put the Old World minis on smaller round bases and have square movement trays. Especially given how insanely expensive GW sells their bases. 

I can’t believe I wrote 3 paragraphs about bases but here we are lol.

[michu]

I've just realised that return to Old World could mean new miniatures for characters... UBERSREIK FIVE ANYONE?

[Panzer]

18 minutes ago, Moldek said:

While I agree that it would be a huge mistake to tease about square bases and end up with round ones (if only because they’ve become symbolic of the opposition between fantasy and aos), marketing teams in all kinds of companies have been known to play fast and loose with this kind of teasers.

If I remember correctly the video said something like « everything comes around, even squares ». So it might be a way of saying that the setting associated with square bases is coming « around » and being converted to round ones.

using square bases in my opinion would be bad because it would hinder cross compatibility between the 2 ranges. I’d much rather they’d put the Old World minis on smaller round bases and have square movement trays. Especially given how insanely expensive GW sells their bases. 

I can’t believe I wrote 3 paragraphs about bases but here we are lol.

Well if other companies base their marketing on GW switching from square bases to round bases, it would make even more sense to bring them back and use both, no?  

Also I think if they wanted to imply that they'd switch from square bases to round bases for the Old World they would have used a stronger visual language than just showing a square base in a matter how brand new products get shown/teased. To me the visual language they used really just means "square bases are coming back for something new".

[Panzer]

11 minutes ago, michu said:

I've just realised that return to Old World could mean new miniatures for characters... UBERSREIK FIVE ANYONE?

Yeah I'm expecting new miniatures for most anything but something I'm really looking for would be a new Valkia miniature.  

[michu]

Right, current one doesn't represent well her "Khorne Valkyrie" aspect.

[Vomikron]

I for one am thrilled at the announcement. There are infinite questions up in the air at the moment but I think everyone should take a step back and be happy that we are getting new miniatures. It would be crazy, from a business synergy standpoint, for GW to release models that won’t be compatible all around. 

My hope is that it will be more heavily campaigned and narrative based like The Horus Heresy. I tried hard as heck to love AoS but I just can’t wrap my head around the narrative. The historical flavor mixed with the fantastical of WHFB is much more in my wheelhouse.

We can argue all day that Fantasy was a Lord of the Rings derivative but I simply don’t find that to be true in the least.

[Moldek]

4 minutes ago, Panzer said:

Well if other companies base their marketing on GW switching from square bases to round bases, it would make even more sense to bring them back and use both, no?  

Also I think if they wanted to imply that they'd switch from square bases to round bases for the Old World they would have used a stronger visual language than just showing a square base in a matter how brand new products get shown/teased. To me the visual language they used really just means "square bases are coming back for something new".

To be honest I’m not sure I share your confidence! It is entirely possible that they haven’t even decided what type of base they’ll be using. To me the « square » stuff could just be a cheeky call out to the Warhammer of old; not necessarily an annoucement of future designs. Guess we’ll have to wait and see! (Or continue writing walls of texts of baseless speculations) 😅

[Still-young]

1 hour ago, karch said:

It ticks the old world and square bases boxes, and I'd certainly love new minis for it but:

1.- I don't see big centerpiece plastic GW going back to 10mm

2.- The base in the video is very much a WHFB base.

10mm doesn’t preclude big centrepieces. It just means they’re bigger in relation to troops.