Warhammer - The Old World

[shinros]

58 minutes ago, Beliman said:

New information:
Yesterday's stream, Tony Cottrell (one of the Forgeworld lead designers) talked about "Warhammer The Old World". It seems that it can be a side project from the Forge World team and not from the Warhammer Studio, like the preview pointed. 
That doesn't mean a lot because warhammer 30k seems to have a solid ruleset. The worst part of the anouncement is the "3" years waiting. 

No problem @Panzer , that was my fault (I'm not an english speaker and my posts are a bit "orthopedic" and most of the times I have problems to say what I have in mind).

Wait which stream was this because if they try to do this new whfb game at forge world prices that's the best way to kill it. 

[Overread]

Just now, shinros said:

Wait which stream was this because if they try to do this new whfb game at forge world prices that's the best way to kill it. 

It will kill it like Horus Heresy (which in all honestly is only stalling because of the very sad death of one of its most key staff and sculptors). Also don't forget Adepticus Titanicus, Necromunda and AT are all Forgeworld Studio projects. Warcry is actually different in that its a core studio project. All use plastic so its clear that GW is willing to let FW use the plastic casting machines

 

 

[Arael]

32 minutes ago, shinros said:

Wait which stream was this because if they try to do this new whfb game at forge world prices that's the best way to kill it. 

Seems a bit strange cause in wh community article they say there is a dedicated warhammer studio team 

[RexHavoc]

A little lazy I know- But I'm going to repost what I posted in the rumour thread as the rumour thread will return to rumours soon and the old world talk will continue on from here. I've slept on the announcement and what I wrote yesterday remains how I feel about the whole thing. My biggest gripe remains the unrest in the communities, which is the very last paragraph of my comment. I'm even more annoyed at GW for this (and only this) than I was yesterday. I woke up to see a torrent of abusive threads in what was meant to be hobby groups. I really dislike the Us Vs Them attitude this hobby brings. I saw it in when fantasy was canned and the fan base hated on AoS. I've seen it in the AoS community with Matched/points Vs Narrative/Creative (This is one of main reasons I disliked a lot of this years AoS). I stopped being involved with another fantasy game due to the fan base attacking anything that wasn't 'pure'. And now we have come full circle to seeing AoS fans attacking WFB and saying that the old world should stay gone. (I'm also not keen on seeing WFB fans treating the announcement as them 'winning' or having 'defeated aos', But I can understand the want for them to celebrate something they have stayed passionate for over the years and gotten back!)

The only additional thing that I would have added since yesterday is this is a perfect chance for them to add the vampire coast stuff to the game! New zombie/monster models would work just as well in both systems and this would a be a good lead in product- total war really increased the vampire coasts popularity and it would be silly not to cash in on that! (give me that sweet plastic necrofex kit!)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is a lot to unpack in this announcement (Which is surprising as it was just a logo!). As someone that has continued to enjoy WFB & loved the first three years of AoS (this year has been ok, but I'm not impressed with many of the releases), I'm not actually as excited over the announcement as someone who loves WFB should be (Though I'm not going to shout and rant and rage on facebook either!) but it was better than I'd actually expected it be and the announcement & tease today was far better done than yesterdays.

The good-

• The old world is back!
• We might finally see the battle for blackfire pass get its release! (That book looked awesome before they canned it!)
• I'm still happily painting old world armies which now might see new models (and I have just enough to paint up at least 3 more models in this unit before the release! 🤣 )
• More models for all the games!
• Hoping to see reprints/remakes of classic books/campaigns, with modern quality books & terrain!
• New fiction set in the old world! I'd love more WFB horror to come out! (Hell, I'd even try my hand at writing some!)
• Hopefully a return of old (or at least new versions of) kits they got rid off, which have no good or easy alternatives (High elves, Tomb kings)
• Mordheim might come back!

The bad-

• We just don't need it. The old world lives on in plenty of other games and model ranges. WFB rules are cheap 2nd hand (or even cheaper than that!) and there was never anything stopping anyone from continuing to play it.
• I'd hate to see them sweep away all the fan made continuations & armies books put out since 2015.
• It seems a little obnoxious to announce this not long after putting out CoS, as it was a bit of a refugee camp for peoples old world collections!
• Announcing it three years in advance seems way off. Only reason they might be doing that is that they have (finally) noticed that others have filled the void WFB left and they want to try and stop some of that money going into those other games, possible before those games gain even more popularity (and it will be harder to get people to come back)
• It's going to break up communities even more than they already are. Already arguments are breaking out between people that hate/love one game or the other.
• Once again GW is catering to the loudest (and often most obnoxious) parts of the fan base (Or at least they appear to be, which is enough to give validation to these people. I still think they don't really care what people ask for but are happy to let them think that when they release something as it looks good on them)
• Backwards character placement. There will be a whole host of characters (& places) added to the old world from AoS lore. I wasn't keen on them adding so many characters from the old world into AoS, but people do seem to enjoy it & for the most part, those that did return made sense (as much as sense can be made in these universes!).  But I can see it not working as well in reverse.
• It will be just like the good old days- Only far more expensive!
• Less resources pumped into AoS
• Less money going into AoS over the next three years (Why would I buy the fancy new AoS army next year now, knowing I might not want to use it in WFB two years down the line) If AoS is the "most successful fantasy game ever", then why are they not concentrating on that. I've been saying for the past year it sounds like no one in GW really cares for AoS and they were just making the most of what they had been left with.
• GW tried this before- trying to support too many games at the same time. It didn't end well and has taken them to now to bounce back from the culling of their lines.

The biggest thing I take away from this announcement is that GW do everything they do for money, but don't seem to care about the ramifications on the community. As hobbyists/a community are first loyalty should always be with each other- we are after all the ones we game with, talk too, hang out and get to know. But I know full well that all hell is going to break loose over the coming weeks/months/ years. Anyone with strong opinions has it it in for the other game and it's going to make the both games unpleasant to talk about online. I think this might be the time I final ditch both forums & social media for good and continue to enjoy the hobby in my home. I already grumble quite a bit about releases and I could see myself easily getting caught up in rows over painting/bases/games and taking away time from my actual hobby.
 

 

[Beastmaster]

How would it be possible to keep the style of the lines distinct? I don’t think they are that different, even most of the newer releases could actually fit into the old world. Would also be a bit unfair for those who started collecting a more distinctly AoSified army, only to find to be excluded from half of the games in their local community.

[Kirjava13]

It could be a great opportunity to keep designing some more low fantasy design models and keep the lines of the armies ported over to AoS (Beastmen, Skaven, Wood Elves, Empire etc) topped up. Let's face it, we are probably never going to see a redesign of Gors or Skryre Acolytes- for AoS, at least. But if there ends up being an Old World release of something Beastmen-y, then AoS Beasts of Chaos can buy them too to refresh their armies.

[RexHavoc]

1 minute ago, Beastmaster said:

How would it be possible to keep the style of the lines distinct? I don’t think they are that different, even most of the newer releases could actually fit into the old world. Would also be a bit unfair for those who started collecting a more distinctly AoSified army, only to find to be excluded from half of the games in their local community.

While it never really bothered me, the old world is not as advanced as the realms, though the model lines for AoS never really did the lore justice, being that they just chucked models from the old world into the new setting with out updating them. The problem is with the lore and style, rather than a problem with the models themselves. 

The magic and craziness of the realms doesn't really fit the grim dark grounded in reality psudo-European setting. Almost everything can be explained away with 'a wizard did it', but it would be hard to convincingly have giant cities on the backs of worms in the old world. They would be no chance of the small villages of the empire surviving when travelling cities could squish them with out even noticing them. This again doesn't affect the model lines too much, but there are some WFB 'purists' that won't want to see some of the more over the top designs retro fitted back into the game. (Personally, I'd decided long before this announcement to happily square base my new Morathi model!)

 

 

7 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

It could be a great opportunity to keep designing some more low fantasy design models and keep the lines of the armies ported over to AoS (Beastmen, Skaven, Wood Elves, Empire etc) topped up. Let's face it, we are probably never going to see a redesign of Gors or Skryre Acolytes- for AoS, at least. But if there ends up being an Old World release of something Beastmen-y, then AoS Beasts of Chaos can buy them too to refresh their armies.

Yeap, this is where they could also shine! I love the skaven but this years AoS release was one of my least favourites, I've not even opened my battletome yet I was that disappointed. I'd definitely like to see some of the old models redone in plastic and they would work for both eras. They could even release duel kits (similar to how daemon kits work for both 40k & fantasy) with a couple of weapon or options that work for one game or the other.


I will have a chuckle if they just rebox the old empire kits that just reboxed for AoS, back again for the old world. I can imagine their is some warehouse trolls questioning their will to live right about now.

[Battlefury]

Since my post of yesterday, I am not that optimistic about that anymore, since I saw the release of Sororitas today ) although it is not AoS, but certainly it is GW's business practice again ).

The picture, that it shows for me now is this:

§1 This is a new cash grab, to drain money from those poor souls, that wanted WHF to stay
§2 It will become a limited edition release fest a la couleur, that will give GW the possibility to gain mney as fast as possible
§3 It was only released to secure the stagnating playerbase to stay for this and have a solid selling point ( potentially )
§4 The prices until that date will be far from ridiculous. GW hiked the prices not only one time this year, they still do. Each new box is slighty more expensive, than previous releases with a similar content.

It is kind of the same, like it was with the Adeptus Sororitas for 40k. It took like 10 years for them to release plastic models with rules. Why though? It wasn't because GW wanted to get it right, or didn't have the ressources for it to be produced. They where sitting on these products to wait for a gap to release it in a moment, where there will be a fu** ton of people to buy it. It is literally 26 models with a book for 160€.

That box is limited edition, just like everything what is entirely new at the moment, and is sold out already. Boxes are on ebay Germany from between 249,-€ to 400,-€.
This is exactly, what we will se even more in the future. Because it works for them.
And this is exactly the sense they will approach The Old Wrold. By waiting ( what they already do now ) for the right moment, when there is no retreat for those, who really wanted to have it, even though they didn't know what it will be, how it will be supported, what it will cost and what the release scedule will be for that.

Imagine a product you spent like 500€ into, just to see it being abandoned like several other sub game systems.

We should be sceptic, more than ever before, about the ( again ) upcoming business practice of GW. They became the EA of miniature game producers and let me tell you, that they didn't change, when they told it. They just changed some faces, but not what was behind it.

 

[Overread]

There's nothing in the Sisters of Battle box save for the Codex with a unique cover and perhaps the cards which is limited production. Everything in it is going to go on regular retail release - all these boxed sets are is a short term discount with limited production. Yes they are cash injections; yes they sell out fast; but be honest they are going retail as well. The only downside is that sometimes GW has an abnormally long lag time (like the Gloomspite box content). 

Heck look at Ossiarchs - the Feast of Bones has only 1 model that wasn't released at launch of the range.  Even though its annoying (more so for existing ogor players although they do now have the beastclaw models to add to their armies); its not true limited production. Last weekend the Shadowspear limited release stuff went on sale for Marines and Chaos (including those new really cool spider demonengines). The only things that GW ever really releases as limited stock are the anniversary models - and even they hang around for a good year and are normally pretty easy to get at retail price or near to retail. 

 

Otherwise even special characters like Gotrek are regular retail models. The short term boxes are only annoying to miss if you've the money at that point in time. Also don't forget that Getting Started sets and christmas boxed sets come around. The former long term the latter are a good bet at least once a year for many armies. 

 

I don't even get how GW is the EA of wargames because EA is famed for buying up smaller companies; using their IP to make casual market games and then often closing down the franchise or studio and often changing the focus of the IP and making poorer quality products (not always) or just odd choices (like how Tiberium Sun 4 was basically bolted ontop of an mmo styled game made by a side studio that got pushed up to full retail). GW isn't buying up 3rd party casting companies

[Chikout]

I strongly recommend that anyone who is unsure what this all means goes and watches this video: 

 Vince and Tom do a very good job of explaining why gw is doing this, why they are announcing it now and what effect it is likely to have on AOS. 

[JPjr]

If Stockholm Syndrome is when someone begins to empathise, like & associate with people who have imprisoned them we need to come up with a term for this hobby whereby people who appear to loathe with every fibre of their being every single thing a company designs, produces, sells or might possibly sell in some undetermined future and then, entirely voluntarily, chain themselves to said company’s metaphorical radiator, so they can generously share their misery with others.

Edited November 16, 2019 by JPjr

[shinros]

6 minutes ago, Chikout said:

I strongly recommend that anyone who is unsure what this all means goes and watches this video: 

 Vince and Tom do a very good job of explaining why gw is doing this, why they are announcing it now and what effect it is likely to have on AOS. 

Good stream, I recommend it. Watched it yesterday.

[Kyriakin]

Vince and Tom almost always do a "very good job".

Unless one or both of them has terrible wifi in a hotel somewhere (or Vince is in one of his very occasional prickly moods), Warhammer Weekly is the best Warhammer show/podcast IMHO.

In this kind of situation, VV is especially good as he tends to be pretty level-headed and can reel in - or at least try to - some of the worse excesses of the "this is the greatest thing ever!" and "this is the worst thing ever!" camps.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Kyriakin

[Overread]

3 minutes ago, JPjr said:

If Stockholm Syndrome is when someone begins to empathise, like & associate with people who have imprisoned them we need to come up with a term for this hobby whereby people who appear to loathe with every fibre of their being every single thing a company designs, produces, sells or might possibly sell in some undetermined future and then, entirely voluntarily, chain themselves to said company’s metaphorical radiator, so they can generously share their misery with others.

I think its called Dakka  (although in a strange turn of oddness Dakka seems more positive over this news than TGA! )

In the end much of the doomsaying is just as nuts as the screaming fanatical joy. Thus far all GW has released is the logo - nothing else. No details, no hints, no concepts. There's a lot of guesswork and theory; but in the end GW is going to do this thing and we will see how it goes. Besides lets not get too bent out of shape - by next week this news will have eased and cooled off a lot as we realise that it really is going to be years away and that there's loads of great stuff coming VERY SOON. Esp with Slaves to Darkness appearing in only weeks time now! 

[Kyriakin]

My favourite over-reaction (be it anti-WHFB or anti-AoS) is the old "Due to this *thing* I will stop playing. I asked all my friends, and they will all stop playing too".

It's as though that person realises that one person quitting (but probably not) won't move GW's needle at all, so he has to pretend that his entire hobby group will quit en masse due to said *thing* in order to spook GW into changing course.

Of course, this reaction is usually two weeks before the release of something that has been in development for years, and is way beyond the point where GW would/could cancel it anyway (although not in this case, obviously),

Edited November 16, 2019 by Kyriakin

[RexHavoc]

10 minutes ago, Battlefury said:

Since my post of yesterday, I am not that optimistic about that anymore, since I saw the release of Sororitas today ) although it is not AoS, but certainly it is GW's business practice again ).

The picture, that it shows for me now is this:

§1 This is a new cash grab, to drain money from those poor souls, that wanted WHF to stay
§2 It will become a limited edition release fest a la couleur, that will give GW the possibility to gain mney as fast as possible
§3 It was only released to secure the stagnating playerbase to stay for this and have a solid selling point ( potentially )
§4 The prices until that date will be far from ridiculous. GW hiked the prices not only one time this year, they still do. Each new box is slighty more expensive, than previous releases with a similar content.

It is kind of the same, like it was with the Adeptus Sororitas for 40k. It took like 10 years for them to release plastic models with rules. Why though? It wasn't because GW wanted to get it right, or didn't have the ressources for it to be produced. They where sitting on these products to wait for a gap to release it in a moment, where there will be a fu** ton of people to buy it. It is literally 26 models with a book for 160€.

That box is limited edition, just like everything what is entirely new at the moment, and is sold out already. Boxes are on ebay Germany from between 249,-€ to 400,-€.
This is exactly, what we will se even more in the future. Because it works for them.
And this is exactly the sense they will approach The Old Wrold. By waiting ( what they already do now ) for the right moment, when there is no retreat for those, who really wanted to have it, even though they didn't know what it will be, how it will be supported, what it will cost and what the release scedule will be for that.

Imagine a product you spent like 500€ into, just to see it being abandoned like several other sub game systems.

We should be sceptic, more than ever before, about the ( again ) upcoming business practice of GW. They became the EA of miniature game producers and let me tell you, that they didn't change, when they told it. They just changed some faces, but not what was behind it.

 

The trick is too only every buy models and games that you are happy owning and either have a use for now or will remain happy owning forever onwards. If you buy into all the new releases and expect it to still be current a year down the line, you are fooling yourself. Gw haven't worked like that for a long time.

Which is exactly why I've not touched new necromunda big sets. They have been awful cash grabs. The first one was out of date in weeks and I suspect that this new one will follow the same path. But I have brought some of the gang boxsets, as the models will last me forever and had some bits in there for other games I play.

I'll treat the new game the same way. Nice book with lots of lore & maps- instant buy. Great models- instant buy with the possibility of buying a 2nd set to store for adding to in the future (in case of models being removed). Rules or expensive add ons which could be out of date as quickly as the first FAQ comes out- ignore it. Add on parts or extras for models that are NEEDED for the game (like forgeworld weapon kits)- Also ignore it, scratch building and proxying is fine for me.
 

7 minutes ago, Overread said:

There's nothing in the Sisters of Battle box save for the Codex with a unique cover and perhaps the cards which is limited production. Everything in it is going to go on regular retail release -

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression the other big sell of this set was that the models were unique to this box only and wouldn't be seen again. One of several reasons I choice to skip them and go with an alternative release.
 

 

7 minutes ago, JPjr said:

If Stockholm Syndrome is when someone begins to empathise, like & associate with people who have imprisoned them we need to come up with a term for this hobby whereby people who appear to loathe with every fibre of their being every single thing a company designs, produces, sells or might possibly sell in some undetermined future then, entirely voluntarily, chain themselves to said company’s metaphorical radiator, so they can generously share their misery with others.

I'd actually be really curious to read a paper or documentary on this phenomenon. I don't recall it being like this 15+ years ago, but then social media wasn't so readily available back then so we didn't get to see so much of what we do now. I'd be really curious if this is just something that has come along because of the modern age or if it really is a mental condition. It is utterly bizarre. I've never understood why people are so attached to companies like blizzard or GW, yet probably buy their vacuum cleaners and toasters with as a little care as you'd might expect them too.
 

[michu]

7 minutes ago, RexHavoc said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression the other big sell of this set was that the models were unique to this box only and wouldn't be seen again. One of several reasons I choice to skip them and go with an alternative release.

He means that you will still be able to buy non-ETB infantry and characters. Sculpts in this box are unique but units are not.

Edited November 16, 2019 by michu

[JackStreicher]

53 minutes ago, Battlefury said:

We should be sceptic, more than ever before, about the ( again ) upcoming business practice of GW. They became the EA of miniature game producers and let me tell you, that they didn't change, when they told it. They just changed some faces, but not what was behind it.

Very well said.

 

Edit: It is what everyone including me tends to be blind to: GW are actually only the shareholders craving for more money. Incontrary to the „old“ GW they have learned how to use Social Media (and they‘ve good people for it). Yet the company remains greedy with constant price hikes while achieving an ever rising revenue (which proves that their price hikes are unjustified and greed-driven).

The fact they announced this now was to strike a blow to Mantic Games who’ve just released their latest Kings of War Edition (Mantic reacted accordingly).

GW is not your friend they only want the best of you: your money. Your interests are only important to them if it delivers them more data with which they can drain your wallet a bit more. Everyone not thinking twice or skipping some of their products due to the price increase are just accelerating the price-rise-loop. And being blind to the price increases and how much those actually increase is possibly the biggest part of the problem.

Edited November 16, 2019 by JackStreicher

[Overread]

1 minute ago, RexHavoc said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression the other big sell of this set was that the models were unique to this box only and wouldn't be seen again. One of several reasons I choice to skip them and go with an alternative release.

I don't think so at all. I've heard some rumour or hint that some might be push fit instead of full retail release sisters; but all the models in the set are regular Sister of Battle models. They are all going to hit the retail shelves. Sure GW might not release all of those models at launch of the core of the range and its clear that there's going to be a bit of lag time between now and when Sisters goes on full retail release, but they are not going to make moulds for two penetant engines and such. 

1 minute ago, RexHavoc said:

I'd actually be really curious to read a paper or documentary on this phenomenon. I don't recall it being like this 15+ years ago, but then social media wasn't so readily available back then so we didn't get to see so much of what we do now. I'd be really curious if this is just something that has come along because of the modern age or if it really is a mental condition. It is utterly bizarre. I've never understood why people are so attached to companies like blizzard or GW, yet probably buy their vacuum cleaners and toasters with as a little care as you'd might expect them too.
 

Honestly I think its because those companies are things they've grown up with from childhood. Consider how many of us started wargaming when we were young; its not just a thing that came and went its something that defined an important part of our childhood and how we grew up. These companies have stood the test of time so people feel more connected with them because they produce something that they've maintained enjoyment for through their life into adulthood. It's not quite the same for many other standard toys that you might play with for years but then grow out of or move past (you might swing around and come back to them to collect or such for nostalgia of course).

 

Another important aspect is that people have steadily come to "complain" on the internet. In fact its a "thing people do" and is likely aided by teh fact that a cheap and easy way to get views and replies is to complain. People are happy to view and not comment on compliments and positive things; they agree with them and like them but they are less likely to respond. However if someone comes online to complain they are more likely to either respond in the positive or the negative - its a more powerful connection it seems. 

In addition I think there's also two important things to remember

1) People drift away from hobbies naturally even without the company doing anything wrong. People change and life changes them. However whilst they might not get up and go to the club or shop any more; they can come online to the social group without any cost or effort. They still like the social aspect of the community they are part of; however they no longer like the hobby as much. This can get reflected in aggression/dislike/anger/rage/complaining about everything. Sometimes if the company can't be targeted then the problem is that the forum is "full of noobs who dont' appreciate it" or somesuch. Basically they have, as a person, moved on but they've not moved on from the community which leads to stress and conflict.

2) They enjoy the game and still play, but they vent their frustration online where its easy and also can generate some feedback reactions. So they complain because this is where they come to complain and rage and release that built up tension in them; but they game and socialist with their real world counterpart in the hobby club/shop etc... So you only see one aspect of the persons gaming life. They don't realise they do this most of the time and they don't realise the negativity they post online because they are still having a positive experience in the real world. 

[Clan's Cynic]

If AoS splits the community, they're not taking your rulebooks. You can always play that edition with your AoS friends, right?

I mean that's what WHFB players were always told here.

Also the usual spiel about businesses doing what's best for their bottom line, gronards who shouldn't be afraid of change, etc.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Clan's Cynic

[Kyriakin]

What "business practices"?

If you like it, buy it. If not, don't. I never understood the anger against releases that don't interest a specific person.

Other than the zero-sum-game fight for GW's attention and resources - which are now greatly expanded, by the way - a new game that is of no interest can just be ignored.

For example, nothing - and I mean nothing - can make me continue scrolling down the Warhammer Community page more quickly than a Middle Earth release, but I am glad that those who do play The Hobbit are receiving stuff for their game.

Ironically, the only real exception to this was the WHFB-AoS changeover, where one directly replaced the other. In that regard, the WHFB reaction kind of made sense (aside from the minority who's reactions went beyond the pale).

Edited November 16, 2019 by Kyriakin

[michu]

1 minute ago, JackStreicher said:

Very well said.

Amusing. "Company announce what they're going to do with 3-years advance, something that is now just a plan and they don't even know if it will get realized and just because that's not what I want it's terrible and the company is awful". I feel like on DakkaDakka.

GW would be EA if they would announce it a couple of days before releasing with no informations before (like  they did with AoS and I love AoS)

[JackStreicher]

6 minutes ago, michu said:

Amusing. "Company announce what they're going to do with 3-years advance, something that is now just a plan and they don't even know if it will get realized and just because that's not what I want it's terrible and the company is awful". I feel like on DakkaDakka.

GW would be EA if they would announce it a couple of days before releasing with no informations before (like  they did with AoS and I love AoS)

Interesting! I‘ve never said that I don‘t want it, on the contrary actually (if you scroll up). But hey keep on rambling.

 

GW and EA: Launch DLC: All CSM books, Supplements etc. Oh and the obvious greed.

 

also there is a distinction to be made GW =! AoS. AoS was made by people hired by GW and GW sells it. While the game is fun and all the price politics remain almost insidious.

Edited November 16, 2019 by JackStreicher

[Overread]

Just a point to remember - those of the community who want to play rank and file are already playing rank and file. Those who want ot play AoS are already playing AoS - many play both. 

This won't split so much as actually re-unite the community because when it comes out you can play both from within the same company. This increases the chance of more people crossing over from both camps. AoS players dabbling in some Old World and vis-versa. If anything it should be a boon to game populations.

 

Plus in 3 years time AoS 2.0 will be fully entrenched and we might even be hyping up talk of AoS 3.0. We can expect multiple armies to have had expansions of their range; new armies and also update to old ones. AoS won't be in a weak rocky place and should be really strong 

[michu]

2 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

All CSM books, Supplements

Hmmm, maybe there is a difference between new books with lore, rules, narrative scenarios and other things and cosmetic changes (e.a. skins)?

And your first reaction to @Battlefury post indicated that you agree with thesis that making WH:Old World is what makes GW EA. Your edit makes it clearer.