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Gotrek and mortal wounds.


Mark Williams

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I have a weird question about Gotrek and I’m having trouble finding an answer.

Gotrek’s warscroll states that any incoming damage characteristic from an attack, spell, or ability that’s greater than 1 is reduced to 1.

However it doesn’t say much about mortal wounds and it seems to me that this is a grey area.

Example 1: Quicksilver Swords. Roll 12 dice. Each 6 deals a mortal wound. I assume you would make a 3+ save for each mortal wound separately.

Example 2: Evocators lightning blast. Roll 2 dice for each model in the unit. Mortal wound on a 4+. Do you make a save for every mortal wound or just 1 since it’s a warscroll ability and seems to match the condition in Gotreks warscroll?

Example 3: Longstrike Raptors. Deal 2 mortal wounds on a hit roll of 6. Do each 2 mortal wounds convert down to just 1?

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Good question, I've encountered the same situation yesterday with an Ogor's charge ability.

the Ogor ability let's you roll dice equal to the charge roll (in this case it was 11) for each roll of 4+ a mortal wound is dealt.
However. since the UNIT has the ability, and the ability is only triggered once. damage from that one ability (let's say 6 dice were a 4+) would be 6.
Which Gotrek then would change back to 1 damage because of his ability:

If the damage inflicted by an attack, spell or ability that targets or affects this model is greater than 1, change it to 1.

I'm quite certain the rules as written are the rules as intended in this case. Since Gotrek is quite strong against a single SOURCE of incoming damage.

So you look at the source of the damage. A single attack can deal 1 damage, a single spell can deal 1 damage. a single ability can deal 1 damage.

So you have to look how many times the Ability gets triggered.
if the ability does  d6, 2d6 per model or 12d6 mortal wounds on a 6+ afterwards is irrelevant, because it only triggers once, and therefore it can only deal 1 damage.

Now for the confusion around the MW's =/= damage:

As per the core rules:

MORTAL WOUNDS

Some attacks, spells and abilities inflict mortal wounds. Do not make hit, wound or save rolls for mortal wounds. Instead, the damage inflicted on the target is equal to the number of mortal wounds that were suffered. Allocate any mortal wounds that are caused while a unit is attacking at the same time as any other wounds caused by the unit’s attacks, after all of the unit’s attacks have been completed. Mortal wounds caused at other times are allocated to models in the target unit as soon as they occur, in the same manner as wounds caused by damage from an attack.After they have been allocated, a mortal wound is treated in the same manner as any other wound for all rules purposes.


I.E.
1 Mortal wound equals 1 Damage

This way the rule makes most sense to me. but i'd love to hear what you guys think if you disagree

 

Edited by stekr
i received more info on the rules and have therefore edited the Original Post
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56 minutes ago, stekr said:

Good question, I've encountered the same situation yesterday with an Ogor's charge ability.

the Ogor ability let's you roll dice equal to the charge roll (in this case it was 11) for each roll of 4+ a mortal wound is dealt.
However. since the UNIT has the ability, and the ability is only triggered once. damage from that one ability (let's say 6 dice were a 4+) would be 6.
Which Gotrek then would change back to 1 damage because of his ability:

If the damage inflicted by an attack, spell or ability that targets or affects this model is greater than 1, change it to 1.

I'm quite certain the rules as written are the rules as intended in this case. Since Gotrek is quite strong against a single SOURCE of incoming damage.

So you look at the source of the damage. A single attack can deal 1 damage, a single spell can deal 1 damage. a single ability can deal 1 damage.
IF you you look at the charge ability from, let's say, Bloodcrushers that ability states that the source is the MODEL, not the UNIT. and therefore Murderous charge would deal multiple instances of 1 Mortal wounds.

TLDR:
When a unit has an ability Gotrek suffers 1 mw from that unit.
When each model in a unit has an ability, Gotrek can get wounded by each model in that unit.

This way the rule makes most sense to me. but i'd love to hear what you guys think if you disagree

Avatar of Grimnir states that the damage inflicted by attack/spell/ability (when greater than 1) gets reduced to 1. I tend to think that they mean the total damage of the attack/spell/ability in this case, otherwise they would've worded it differently like we see in Shoulder Plate of Edassa: Roll a dice EACH TIME you allocate a mortal wound (singular) to this model. 

The weird thing is that, according to the rules, we have 'damage' (a statistic paired to attack) and 'mortal wounds' (which is something different). It gets used here for both and that makes it confusing. Spells, for instance, don't normally do damage, they inflict mortal wounds. But I still think that the intend would be to target the total damage (so total mortal wounds done) by the source (in your case an ability).  

 

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On 11/13/2019 at 2:32 PM, PJetski said:

This is a strange rule... My understanding is that "damage" only refers to a weapon attack; abilities that do mortal wounds do not have a damage characteristic.

Except they do, in the Core rules the paragraph of Mortal Wounds state:

MORTAL WOUNDS

Some attacks, spells and abilities inflict mortal wounds. Do not make hit, wound or save rolls for mortal wounds. Instead, the damage inflicted on the target is equal to the number of mortal wounds that were suffered. Allocate any mortal wounds that are caused while a unit is attacking at the same time as any other wounds caused by the unit’s attacks, after all of the unit’s attacks have been completed. Mortal wounds caused at other times are allocated to models in the target unit as soon as they occur, in the same manner as wounds caused by damage from an attack.After they have been allocated, a mortal wound is treated in the same manner as any other wound for all rules purposes.

I.E.
1 MW = 1 Damage

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2 hours ago, stekr said:

Except they do, in the Core rules the paragraph of Mortal Wounds state:

MORTAL WOUNDS

Some attacks, spells and abilities inflict mortal wounds. Do not make hit, wound or save rolls for mortal wounds. Instead, the damage inflicted on the target is equal to the number of mortal wounds that were suffered. Allocate any mortal wounds that are caused while a unit is attacking at the same time as any other wounds caused by the unit’s attacks, after all of the unit’s attacks have been completed. Mortal wounds caused at other times are allocated to models in the target unit as soon as they occur, in the same manner as wounds caused by damage from an attack.After they have been allocated, a mortal wound is treated in the same manner as any other wound for all rules purposes.

I.E.
1 MW = 1 Damage

In the Tzeentch FAQ they specify that fate dice can't be used to change the "damage" of a spell:

Damage roll (e.g. any roll that determines a Damage characteristic, but not any roll that determines the number of mortal wounds inflicted by a spell or ability)

If "damage" was a term applied to abilities and spells, why can't fate dice be used to determine the caused by a spell? This implies that "Damage" is to the Damage characteristic of weapons, and does not apply to spells or abilities.

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25 minutes ago, PJetski said:

In the Tzeentch FAQ they specify that fate dice can't be used to change the "damage" of a spell:

Damage roll (e.g. any roll that determines a Damage characteristic, but not any roll that determines the number of mortal wounds inflicted by a spell or ability)

If "damage" was a term applied to abilities and spells, why can't fate dice be used to determine the caused by a spell? This implies that "Damage" is to the Damage characteristic of weapons, and does not apply to spells or abilities.

Except it doesn't.

The FAQ mentions a specific situation:

Q: can I use fate dice to determine the number of mortal wounds inflicted by a spell or ability
A: no

Also because the DoT Battletome does not list those dicerolls that can be manipulated by Fate Dice..

I don't understand why such questions and answers  should function as a blanket statement for the core rules.
this is a rules clarification to the DoT Fate Dice mechanic. And in no way, shape or form should affect the core rules of AoS.


Atleast that's what I think, but feel free to explain why a FAQ of a single mechanic of a single faction should overrule the core rules for all other situations.

*Maybe MW's arent DAMAGE as such, but after you resolve them on the target you inlfict them as DAMAGE.
(that may be the reason why you can't manipulate MW's? Dunno, speculating here...)
But as soon as the amount of MW's is determined, the outcome is DAMAGE (as per the core rules).

Which will then be changed to 1 by Gotrek

Edited by stekr
clarification on my point of view
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9 minutes ago, stekr said:

Except it doesn't.

The FAQ specificly mentions the situation:

Q: can I use fate dice to determine the number of mortal wounds inflicted by a spell or ability
A: no

Also because the DoT Battletome does not list those dicerolls that can be affected by Fate Dice..

I really don't understand why people take such questions and answers as a blanket statement for the core rules.
this is a rules clarification to the DoT Fate Dice mechanic. And in no way, shape or form should affect the core rules of AoS.

Atleast that's what I think, but feel free to explain why a FAQ of a single mechanic of a single faction should overrule the core rules for all other situations.

FAQ is not an errata; it is a clarification of how a rule should be interpreted. 

The Tzeentch battletome does specify which dice rolls you can replace with Fate Dice:

Destiny Dice can be expended to fix the result of any of the following nine types of dice rolls:

  • Casting roll
  • Unbinding roll
  • Run roll
  • Charge roll
  • Hit roll
  • Wound roll
  • Save roll
  • Damage roll
  • Battleshock test

The FAQ clarifies that damage is specifically for the damage characteristic of a weapon attack, and does apply to a spell or ability. 

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23 minutes ago, PJetski said:

FAQ is not an errata; it is a clarification of how a rule should be interpreted. 

The Tzeentch battletome does specify which dice rolls you can replace with Fate Dice:

Destiny Dice can be expended to fix the result of any of the following nine types of dice rolls:

  • Casting roll
  • Unbinding roll
  • Run roll
  • Charge roll
  • Hit roll
  • Wound roll
  • Save roll
  • Damage roll
  • Battleshock test

The FAQ clarifies that damage is specifically for the damage characteristic of a weapon attack, and does apply to a spell or ability. 

I'll try and break it down once more:

Spells and abilities that do mortal wounds (cannot be manipulated by Destiny Dice, those dicerolls are also not mentioned in the list of rolls stated in the battletome)
After you resolve an ability or a spell (X amount of Mortal Wounds) the target suffers that in DAMAGE (as per the core rules).

So, Destiny dice don't let you manipulate the mortal wounds, because manipulating mortal wounds is not on the list.
However, AFTER that. the mortal wounds result will be applied to the target as DAMAGE (as per the core rules).
And that's where Gotrek kicks in, because he changes that damage to 1.

Gotrek's ability doesn't change damage ROLLS, it flatout changes the DAMAGE to 1

MW's =/= Damage Rolls, however they do result in DAMAGE (as per the core rules).

*In my previous post, with THOSE dicerolls I meant the spell/ability effect dicerolls. sorry for the confusion there.

I'm interested in hearing where you think my logic goes awry

Edited by stekr
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On 11/17/2019 at 11:17 AM, stekr said:

Good question, I've encountered the same situation yesterday with an Ogor's charge ability.

the Ogor ability let's you roll dice equal to the charge roll (in this case it was 11) for each roll of 4+ a mortal wound is dealt.
However. since the UNIT has the ability, and the ability is only triggered once. damage from that one ability (let's say 6 dice were a 4+) would be 6.
Which Gotrek then would change back to 1 damage because of his ability:

If the damage inflicted by an attack, spell or ability that targets or affects this model is greater than 1, change it to 1.

I'm quite certain the rules as written are the rules as intended in this case. Since Gotrek is quite strong against a single SOURCE of incoming damage.

So you look at the source of the damage. A single attack can deal 1 damage, a single spell can deal 1 damage. a single ability can deal 1 damage.

So you have to look how many times the Ability gets triggered.
if the ability does  d6, 2d6 per model or 12d6 mortal wounds on a 6+ afterwards is irrelevant, because it only triggers once, and therefore it can only deal 1 damage.

Now for the confusion around the MW's =/= damage:

As per the core rules:

MORTAL WOUNDS

Some attacks, spells and abilities inflict mortal wounds. Do not make hit, wound or save rolls for mortal wounds. Instead, the damage inflicted on the target is equal to the number of mortal wounds that were suffered. Allocate any mortal wounds that are caused while a unit is attacking at the same time as any other wounds caused by the unit’s attacks, after all of the unit’s attacks have been completed. Mortal wounds caused at other times are allocated to models in the target unit as soon as they occur, in the same manner as wounds caused by damage from an attack.After they have been allocated, a mortal wound is treated in the same manner as any other wound for all rules purposes.


I.E.
1 Mortal wound equals 1 Damage

This way the rule makes most sense to me. but i'd love to hear what you guys think if you disagree

 

I think that makes sense, although as a Gotrek player I would love to argue differently.

The combat sequence rules state you determine the damage before you calculate the wounds. "Wounds" equates to the unsaved "damage" you suffer. And modifiers to damage happen prior to allocating the wounds.

For example four unsaved hits by a sequiturs mauls inflict 4 damage = 4 wounds. It then goes on to say that if an ability saves against those wounds, you roll saves against the wounds themselves, not the hits, or the damage. So in this case Gotrek would make a further 4 save rolls with his Shoulder plate.

In another example, if the attacks came from greatmaces (dealing 2 damage each), the four unsaved attacks would inflict only 4 wounds, not 8, due to the damage being modified by the "Avatar" ability from 2 to 1 for each unsaved attack. So again, Gotrek would need only to save 4 wounds with his shoulder plate.

The rules then state that mortal wounds bypass the wound, save and damage process in the attack sequence. You are jumping straight to the allocation of wounds, as stated in the above rule. So mortal wounds, as you say, are counted as 1 w per 1 mw, because they are not inflicting damage. They are inflicting wounds. The clue here is the 'allocate' not 'determine' wounds in the rule. The 'Avatar' ability is used to determine, not allocate the damage to Gotrek.

What makes this bad rule writing, is that most spells inflict MWs, not damage. It's not a helpful rule really, but I think there are probably exceptions where a spell is a damage dealer, not a mortal wound-er.

It also mean then, that Gotrek is vulnerable to endless spells and high dealing mortal wounds (like WLCs or artefacts), but only if he rolls 1 or 2 on the shoulder-plate roll. So yeah, makes him a little weaker, but he's still a pint-sized god capable of smacking Nagash and getting away from a Purple Sun (albeit a little battered and bruised!).

Edit: I would add, that the following line does complicate this rule somewhat, making it sound like it's part of the attack sequence rather than wound allocation: "Instead, the damage inflicted on the target is equal to the number of mortal wounds that were suffered."

This is then contradicted by: "Mortal wounds caused at other times are allocated to models in the target unit as soon as they occur, in the same manner as wounds caused by damage from an attack." 

Edited by Mcthew
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35 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

After playing the game for a few months and resting on this question, I was re-reading gotrek's warscroll today and I think it sadly doesn't reduce mortal wounds inflicted to 1. I think it only reduces normal damage.

So in an example where a Keeper of Secrets attacks him and deals 5 mortal wounds from a single attack, we've bypassed the damage step and just went straight to mortal wounds inflicted, and he has to make a damage save for all 5 mortal wounds. Although I don't want it to work this way, it seems like the most logical interpretation of the rule. Mortal wounds are not inflicted in groups... but I will probably ask a TO before I take him to any tournaments. Maybe they will see it a different way.

AoS wording is confusing.

Mortal wounds do inflict damage, which then goes to wounds taken, and is compared to the wounds characteristic. A mortal wound need not be mortal either.

With a normal attack, we have the damage characteristic, a wound roll, damage inflicted, wounds allocated and the wounds characteristic.

These terms are all only loosely related.

Mortal wounds that are dealt with an attack will be dealt when the regular attack damage is inflicted, but trigger the shoulderplate separately.

Now I'm not sure whether unsaved damage and mortal wounds will trigger Avatar first and then the shoulderplate or the other way around. Anyway, that single attack will not deal more than one damage.

The rules writers could have taken a few more words out of the cast English dictionary, and have made this a lot less confusing.

Edited by zilberfrid
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7 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

After playing the game for a few months and resting on this question, I was re-reading gotrek's warscroll today and I think it sadly doesn't reduce mortal wounds inflicted to 1. I think it only reduces normal damage.

So in an example where a Keeper of Secrets attacks him and deals 5 mortal wounds from a single attack, we've bypassed the damage step and just went straight to mortal wounds inflicted, and he has to make a damage save for all 5 mortal wounds. Although I don't want it to work this way, it seems like the most logical interpretation of the rule. Mortal wounds are not inflicted in groups... but I will probably ask a TO before I take him to any tournaments. Maybe they will see it a different way.

This is incorrect. Mortal wounds are, in fact, inflicted in groups. It just doesn't usually matter. You may be thinking of 40k which explicitly calls out MW as assigned individually because 40k doesn't have damage spillover on regular attacks which means MW needed a whole separate chunk of rules for that. Mortal wounds in AoS are only special in that they bypass the normal attack sequence for determining damage inflicted, they still inflict damage and use the same allocation mechanism as regular wounds. As per the core rules:

Quote

Do not make hit, wound or save rolls for mortal wounds. Instead, the damage inflicted on the target is equal to the number of mortal wounds that were suffered.

You proceed to damage inflicted, you do not bypass the "Allocate Wounds" step where all the damage from attacks is added up and assigned. The amount of damage inflicted from your attack in this example is 5, which because they are MW do not need to make hit, wound or save rolls. The damage is then, as per Gotrek's warscroll ability, reduced to 1 because they were inflicted by a single attack. He then takes his save against it.

For added clarity, the relevant section of Avatar of Grimnir:

Quote

If the damage inflicted by an attack, spell or ability that targets or affects this model is greater than 1, change it to 1.

I bold damage inflicted to emphasize the total lack of ambiguity in the wording here. Mortal wounds inflict an amount of damage equal to the number of mortal wounds suffered. 5 mortal wounds = 5 damage inflicted, 5 is greater than 1 so it becomes 1.

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8 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

After playing the game for a few months and resting on this question, I was re-reading gotrek's warscroll today and I think it sadly doesn't reduce mortal wounds inflicted to 1. I think it only reduces normal damage.

So in an example where a Keeper of Secrets attacks him and deals 5 mortal wounds from a single attack, we've bypassed the damage step and just went straight to mortal wounds inflicted, and he has to make a damage save for all 5 mortal wounds. Although I don't want it to work this way, it seems like the most logical interpretation of the rule. Mortal wounds are not inflicted in groups... but I will probably ask a TO before I take him to any tournaments. Maybe they will see it a different way.

You are confusing damage with damage, and wounds with wounds.

That's mostly the fault of the writing, but do look up the exact wording for mortal wounds as part of an attack.

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After playing the game for a few months and resting on this question, I was re-reading gotrek's warscroll today and I think it sadly doesn't reduce mortal wounds inflicted to 1. I think it only reduces normal damage.

So in an example where a Keeper of Secrets attacks him and deals 5 mortal wounds from a single attack, we've bypassed the damage step and just went straight to mortal wounds inflicted, and he has to make a damage save for all 5 mortal wounds. Although I don't want it to work this way, it seems like the most logical interpretation of the rule. Mortal wounds are not inflicted in groups... but I will probably ask a TO before I take him to any tournaments. Maybe they will see it a different way.

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