Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
xking

GW and the bad names

Recommended Posts

36 minutes ago, Jefferson Skarsnik said:

Idgi

Everyone in this thread knows what the names are referring to because they're familiar with the game

Nobody who was not familiar with the game would ever guess what an "Akhelian Leviadon" was

If they called it a "Sea Elf War Terrapin" then it'd be pretty clear what it was but that would perhaps be a bad name in a different way

But that's the same within all areas of knowledge.  The reason the names become familiar is that they tend to be relatively easy to remember and have some simple connection to that which they represent.  I have been a gardener for many years and I can tell you that latin plant names are nowhere near being as easy to remember, let alone associating it with a particular plant.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/12/2019 at 7:31 AM, Panzer said:

You'd be guessing right. ;) 

Panzer is a kind of tank. Does Panzer mean Panther in German or is that a false friend? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

Panzer is a kind of tank. Does Panzer mean Panther in German or is that a false friend? 

Haha I was wondering whether non-germans would think Panther and Panzer are connected.

To enlighten you, no they are not. Panther in german is Panther/Panter. Panzer is tank/shell/armour. ;) 

Edited by Panzer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Panzer said:

Haha I was wondering whether non-germans would think Panther and Panzer are connected.

To enlighten you, no they are not. Panther in german is Panther/Panter. Panzer is tank/shell/armour. ;) 

Oh so the Panzer tanks are literally just named tank. hahaha. We gave ours crazy names like Abrams and Shermans and stuff named after generals and presidents. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Aelfric said:

But that's the same within all areas of knowledge.  The reason the names become familiar is that they tend to be relatively easy to remember and have some simple connection to that which they represent.  I have been a gardener for many years and I can tell you that latin plant names are nowhere near being as easy to remember, let alone associating it with a particular plant.

No word has anything to do with any real thing. They only have something to do with older words.

Now I have to eat my own shirt because I did say that I wanted more imaginative names than "Gorefather" or "The Living City" and I've been rewarded with the Lumineth Realm-Lords or the Vanari Auralans... Yikes.

My problem with Lumineth is that I don't believe it as an Elvish word. It's got Lumen, the declension root of Lux, "Light" in Latin, right there, and it refers to Elves coming from the Realm of Light. Not for a single moment I'll believe that Elves speak a language derived from Latin. I mean, Sylvaneth was already a stretch I wasn't ready to make. The Elves from the Old World had a word for light: Lecai. Why not Lecain? Lecaith? Or even Hyish, the name of the Wind of Light? Aren't they the Realm-Lords? Why not Hyishi Aelf-Realms?

As for the Vanari Auralan Wardens... Why two words? What is a Vanari, why Auralan? What is Auralia? I would WELCOME this word if I knew it would come with a rich tapestry of meaning and language significance. If it's just gibberish, then calling it Elven Spearmen would have sufficed. Light Elven Spearmen if you need more definition?

I don't want gibberish, I want meaningful worldbuilding.

I see that many just don't care, and as long as the minis are cool and the rules are sound, they're good. I'm in a minority that needs their games to play in a world which makes sense. If I have to spend hours with my plastic dudes, I want the whole setting to be worth it.

Edited by Cèsar de Quart
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

Oh so the Panzer tanks are literally just named tank. hahaha. We gave ours crazy names like Abrams and Shermans and stuff named after generals and presidents. 

Panzer and Tank are used in the same way. Someone would call an Abrams a "Tank" in english, and a "Panzer" in german. German tanks are often named after big cats like the Tiger or a Leopard

Panzer is actully slang for "Panzerkampfwagen", literally "armored battle wagon". 

 

And now to connect the off-topic with the on-topic. I do the same for most units. Akhelian Leviadon maybe the official full name but I can just call it a Leviadon (which is a good name in my opinion). Same goes for the Lumineth. The full name adds meaning and signals what the faction is about, while the shortend version is perfect for use in normal conversation. 

Edited by Gecktron
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

Oh so the Panzer tanks are literally just named tank. hahaha. We gave ours crazy names like Abrams and Shermans and stuff named after generals and presidents. 

Germans did too. Typically German Tanks are called after big cats. The newest one being the Leopard. In WK2 the most common ones were the Tiger, also there was the Panther. But there were also ones without nickname that were just called "Panzerkraftwagen XYZ" which just means "Tankwagon". 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

Oh so the Panzer tanks are literally just named tank. hahaha. We gave ours crazy names like Abrams and Shermans and stuff named after generals and presidents. 

Well for those Panzer is short for Panzerkampfwagen which is translated to "armoured fighting vehicle". Most other german tanks are named after animals though.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Panzer said:

Well for those Panzer is short for Panzerkampfwagen which is translated to "armoured fighting vehicle". Most other german tanks are named after animals though.

Ok. So tanks are called "Armored Fighting Vehicle" and the city you live in is name ironforest and people want to get mad things are called "Eel Riders" and stuff when apparently in all language most names are just descriptive of its function or where it's located lol.

I live in a place called bellevue which I'm pretty sure is French for "Pretty View". :|

Either that or they're named after a person. Nashville is basically Nash Town. Or if you want to use the language of the settlers anything station is basically for. Thompson Station is basically Thompson's Fort (or station, as station is just...well a station lol.)

So real life names are boring and dumb like fantasy names. So Thompson Station, <Name><City> (Stalingrad, Leningrad, WASHINGTON DC (literally just the name of our first president...) etc... are basically like Von Carstein Castle. 

IIRC Rome means "City Built on Two Hills" 

Edited by Ravinsild
  • Like 2
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

Ok. So tanks are called "Armored Fighting Vehicle" and the city you live in is name ironforest and people want to get mad things are called "Eel Riders" and stuff when apparently in all language most names are just descriptive of its function or where it's located lol.

I live in a place called bellevue which I'm pretty sure is French for "Pretty View". :|

Yes, Bellevue means "pretty view". What does Paris mean? Bordeaux? Montpellier? France? Europe?

Let's not be reductive about this. My complain was that ALL the names were "plain description of what is or looks like" or, worse, "very generic fantasy name which sounds cool". You can have your Hallowheard, but for every Hallowheart of Living City there should be many imaginative, interconnected names that evoke different cultures and language. Names that can be traced to older names, but the origin of which has been lost to the dead languages of the Age of Chaos.

Again, if you want your fantasy worlds to be bland, generic containers of cool models and sound rules, then be my guest. But it's a shame.

Edited by Cèsar de Quart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Naem said:

Germans did too. Typically German Tanks are called after big cats. The newest one being the Leopard. In WK2 the most common ones were the Tiger, also there was the Panther. But there were also ones without nickname that were just called "Panzerkraftwagen XYZ" which just means "Tankwagon". 

Well... Tank is a codeword that simply stuck. The British wanted to keep it a secret, and it sort of resembles a fuel tank.

A "tank" is an armoured battle wagon, so "Panzerkampfwagen" simply describes it better.

I think there also was a Puma.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah you are right, there are all kinds of animals. Also we have a "Marder" (Marten) a "Fuchs", still waiting for a Lion though, don't know why they never picked the king of the jungle :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AoS, as I think Chris said on an episode of Minis Monthly, is where you become your brand.

Bloodbound
Bloodmaster
Bloodthirster
Bloodletter
Bloodthrone
Bloodreavers
Bloodwarrriors
Bloodcrushers
Skulltaker
Skullcrushers
Skullgrinder
Skullhammer
Skullcannon
Skullreapers

Whoever Khorne got to do his PR (which, in all likelihood and fairness, may just be him) is, at the very least, on-message, though Sigmar help you if you ever want to take any of this seriously.

  • Like 4
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Cèsar de Quart said:

What does Paris mean? Bordeaux? Montpellier? France? Europe?


France - from Latin Francia, land of the Franks

Bordeaux - assumed to come from Burdigalia, Gaulish, Proto-Celtic for City of the Gaels/Celts

Paris - Latin again this time for City of the (indigenous tribe) Parisii

Montpellier - combination of the Latin from mountain and pastellus, a  particular dye/woad that the locals were noted for.

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Cèsar de Quart said:

No word has anything to do with any real thing. They only have something to do with older words.

Now I have to eat my own shirt because I did say that I wanted more imaginative names than "Gorefather" or "The Living City" and I've been rewarded with the Lumineth Realm-Lords or the Vanari Auralans... Yikes.

My problem with Lumineth is that I don't believe it as an Elvish word. It's got Lumen, the declension root of Lux, "Light" in Latin, right there, and it refers to Elves coming from the Realm of Light. Not for a single moment I'll believe that Elves speak a language derived from Latin. I mean, Sylvaneth was already a stretch I wasn't ready to make. The Elves from the Old World had a word for light: Lecai. Why not Lecain? Lecaith? Or even Hyish, the name of the Wind of Light? Aren't they the Realm-Lords? Why not Hyishi Aelf-Realms?

As for the Vanari Auralan Wardens... Why two words? What is a Vanari, why Auralan? What is Auralia? I would WELCOME this word if I knew it would come with a rich tapestry of meaning and language significance. If it's just gibberish, then calling it Elven Spearmen would have sufficed. Light Elven Spearmen if you need more definition?

I don't want gibberish, I want meaningful worldbuilding.

I see that many just don't care, and as long as the minis are cool and the rules are sound, they're good. I'm in a minority that needs their games to play in a world which makes sense. If I have to spend hours with my plastic dudes, I want the whole setting to be worth it.

I do agree that the names so far revealed for the Lumineth are not linguistically connected to the Elvish of the Old World.  But GW seem to have taken a conscious decision to diverge from the traditional Fantasy norms to create something new and, let's face it, less Tolkeinian.  Since Tolkein created an Elvish language that influenced the whole genre, then steering away from that would be understandable.  (Moorcock's influence, I would argue, is more subtle and has survived into the new era).

Those of us who have been in the hobby long enough to remember the old ways are, I'm afraid, in the minority - a dying race as it were - and so this transition can be somewhat irritating at times.  However, this appears to the new reality and there are at least aspects of the new that in some way still have connection to the old, which does help to smooth the transition.

I am sure that, somewhere in Azyr, there is an ancient old Aelf grumbling about the youth of today and the passing of the old ways, while slowly sipping their cocoa, and sometimes I do feel like them. But the times are a-changing, however much I care,  and already for many in the hobby Lumineth is a perfectly good Aelvish word and don't see what all the fuss is about.

Whatever it becomes, I'm pretty sure it won't be gibberish.  There will be a logic behind Vanari Auralan Wardens - we just don't have the information yet. 

If I were to guess, I would say that, since they also refer to Auralan Sentinels (archers), then Warden refers to their battlefield role.  The cavalry revealed are Vanari Dawnriders and we know that there are four sub-factions and that some runes suggest two factions can be combined.  So, I would guess that Vanari and Auralan are names for two of these sub-factions.  I  am quite looking forward to finding out.

Of course, there's nothing to stop me giving my heroes proper traditional Elvish names, not at all.

 

Edited by Aelfric
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Kirjava13 said:

AoS, as I think Chris said on an episode of Minis Monthly, is where you become your brand.

Bloodbound
Bloodmaster
Bloodthirster
Bloodletter
Bloodthrone
Bloodreavers
Bloodwarrriors
Bloodcrushers
Skulltaker
Skullcrushers
Skullgrinder
Skullhammer
Skullcannon
Skullreapers

Whoever Khorne got to do his PR (which, in all likelihood and fairness, may just be him) is, at the very least, on-message, though Sigmar help you if you ever want to take any of this seriously.

Bloodmaster, Skulltaker and Skullmaster sharing a pint of delicious blood and trying in vain to remember if any of them are called Bloodtaker

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, JPjr said:


France - from Latin Francia, land of the Franks

Bordeaux - assumed to come from Burdigalia, Gaulish, Proto-Celtic for City of the Gaels/Celts

Paris - Latin again this time for City of the (indigenous tribe) Parisii

Montpellier - combination of the Latin from mountain and pastellus, a  particular dye/woad that the locals were noted for.

 

A rhetorical question. Besides, your etymoligies are incomplete (what's the meaning of Parisii? What's the meaning of Frank? Why is the etymology of Bordeaux so obscure --the one you cite is just one theory, and not a very modern one...), but this reinforces my point. These names have meanings with go back thousands of years and they have lost all meaning to us. Unlike Hallowheart.

GW did give us ancient realms like Bataar, but they gave us no framework of cultures in which to place them. Not to mention they developed them very sparsely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing is GW doesn't have a Tolkien writer hired to work on AoS. So many things likely happen in reverse - a place is created and then a history attached to it; rather than the other way around. The Mortal Realms is clearly made to work with this system of world building, which likely works for a lore built by multiple shifting authors over years; rather than a very rigid one where perhaps one person in the whole company knows enough to hold it all together. 

Framework is something the Mortal Realms do lack; partly because its a very new setting, but also because of the whole birth and source of AoS itself. It's likely something that will resolve itself over time.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This has been a pretty interesting discussion. It's surprising to see such a variety of responses to the way things in AoS (and WHFB, other fantasy settings, and the real world!) are named.

For me, where the names really fall down is when they veer into being overbearingly pompous or simply too convoluted. Given the subject matter of the game, we're normally dealing with military forces and their organisation, and militaries are nothing if not pragmatic. They tend towards terminologies that are functional rather than grandiose, and that's the expectation that I most often feel AoS gets "wrong" in a way that can be difficult to pin down.

A good example is the Vanari Dawnriders. That would be an excellent name for a specific cavalry division within a larger military organisation - they could have their own storied history, perhaps including some famous battle where they rode in at dawn and saved the day. It could be used to distinguish members of that specific division from all the otherwise near-identical cavalry divisions within the Lumineth army.

Instead, it seems that all Lumineth cavalry units are called "Vanari Dawnriders". This serves no purpose in universe - why would you come up with a specific name for a battlefield role when a perfectly functional word - "cavalry" - already exists and is far less of a mouthful? That's the question that breaks the immersion of the setting; the name exists only for reasons extrinsic to the world.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Kadeton said:

This has been a pretty interesting discussion. It's surprising to see such a variety of responses to the way things in AoS (and WHFB, other fantasy settings, and the real world!) are named.

For me, where the names really fall down is when they veer into being overbearingly pompous or simply too convoluted. Given the subject matter of the game, we're normally dealing with military forces and their organisation, and militaries are nothing if not pragmatic. They tend towards terminologies that are functional rather than grandiose, and that's the expectation that I most often feel AoS gets "wrong" in a way that can be difficult to pin down.

A good example is the Vanari Dawnriders. That would be an excellent name for a specific cavalry division within a larger military organisation - they could have their own storied history, perhaps including some famous battle where they rode in at dawn and saved the day. It could be used to distinguish members of that specific division from all the otherwise near-identical cavalry divisions within the Lumineth army.

Instead, it seems that all Lumineth cavalry units are called "Vanari Dawnriders". This serves no purpose in universe - why would you come up with a specific name for a battlefield role when a perfectly functional word - "cavalry" - already exists and is far less of a mouthful? That's the question that breaks the immersion of the setting; the name exists only for reasons extrinsic to the world.

Your mistake is that you are comparing real life standards to those in a fantasy world. 

You are talking about Aelves here, ofc its a pompous name.

 

Edit: I would find a game where everything is named like their battlefield role pretty dull. 

„And those are my Fyreslayers elite infanterists!“

“I shoot at your Sylvaneth big treant archers“ 

Duh? 

Edited by Phasteon
  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Kadeton said:

A good example is the Vanari Dawnriders. That would be an excellent name for a specific cavalry division within a larger military organisation - they could have their own storied history, perhaps including some famous battle where they rode in at dawn and saved the day. It could be used to distinguish members of that specific division from all the otherwise near-identical cavalry divisions within the Lumineth army.

I'm hoping for some Vanari Reavers - I have 10 already to go. :) 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

Your mistake is that you are comparing real life standards to those in a fantasy world. 

You are talking about Aelves here, ofc its a pompous name.

 

Edit: I would find a game where everything is named like their battlefield role pretty dull. 

„And those are my Fyreslayers elite infanterists!“

“I shoot at your Sylvaneth big treant archers“ 

Duh? 

Especially when elvish cavalry never was simple "cavalry". We had Silver Helms, Ellyrian Reavers and Dragon Princes. Using generic names is good for such games as Dragon Rampant when there is no defined setting. 

And for "stupid" ( thing) names - listen, in my country there are such cities like Whiteslope, Buriedunder and even simply Boat! I live in village literally named Mansion of Mares. The etymology of AoS names has more sense than you think @Cèsar de Quart: Hallowheart was founded by Hallowed Knights, Tempest's eye by Tempest Lords, Hammerhal by Hammers of Sigmar, Anvilgard by Anvils of the Heldenhammer, Vindicarum by Celestial Vindicators, Excelsis by Knights ExcelsiorPhoenicium was freed by phoenixes. There is no difference between such names and a real city in my country Bishop's Village because it was founded by a bishop. Greywater Fastness was build close to swamp hence grey(murky)water. Living city? That's probably a direct translation of Sylvaneth name as it was founded by Alarielle herself. And if you think that a city named Greypeak (I've just found it's name on Lexicanum, it's from short story "Shiprats) has a stupid name then I just wrote that there is a city in my country named Whiteslope. And if you want non-descriptive names then there are always cities like Izalend.

But my biggest advice would be to not treat Warhammer so seriously - it has an old tradition of puny names and that's the whole point of it. Having fun and making jokes.

 

  • Like 1
  • LOVE IT! 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

Your mistake is that you are comparing real life standards to those in a fantasy world. 

You are talking about Aelves here, ofc its a pompous name.

Military commanders in fantasy worlds don't have time for this ****** any more than people in the real world do. Battlefield communication is all about efficiency.

"Order the infantry to advance."
"Sir! Did you mean, 'Order the Vanari Auralan Wardens to advance,' sir?"
"Go take a long walk off a short pier, private. That's an order."

23 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

Edit: I would find a game where everything is named like their battlefield role pretty dull. 

„And those are my Fyreslayers elite infanterists!“

“I shoot at your Sylvaneth big treant archers“ 

Duh? 

"I shoot at your treant archers" is the kind of thing people genuinely say during gameplay, and nobody is confused about what it means. That's because 'treant archers' describes the actual thing that they are, as opposed to an arbitrary name that's been attached to them for marketing purposes.

The Fyreslayers are actually a pretty good example of what I'm talking about. They're one of the worst armies for visual identification - just a bunch of skimpy dwarves with hand weapons. The names of those units could be used to help distinguish them but instead they do the exact opposite; everybody is some flavour of Auric Rune-thinger or a Berserker. It would actually be much simpler to explain to an opponent that "These guys are gunners, these guys are infantry, these guys are elite infantry," instead of "These guys are Hearthguards, and these guys are also Hearthguards but they're Berserkers too, and these other guys are also Berserkers but they're not Hearthguards, they're Vulkites, make sense?" Your opponent still has no ****** idea what's going on.

  • Like 3
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

Military commanders in fantasy worlds don't have time for this ****** any more than people in the real world do. Battlefield communication is all about efficiency.

I already said that elvish cavalry always had pompous names. And you just need to say "send the dawnriders". Vanari Auralan are more likely sub-faction names and Dawnriders are found in both of them. Or maybe Vanari  means teclisian and Auralan tyrionic and they worship or serve both gods.

6 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

"I shoot at your treant archers" is the kind of thing people genuinely say during gameplay, and nobody is confused about what it means. That's because 'treant archers' describes the actual thing that they are, as opposed to an arbitrary name that's been attached to them for marketing purposes.

Maybe in your group. Whatever report I watch or whatever game I play I hear official names.

6 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

The Fyreslayers are actually a pretty good example of what I'm talking about. They're one of the worst armies for visual identification - just a bunch of skimpy dwarves with hand weapons. The names of those units could be used to help distinguish them but instead they do the exact opposite; everybody is some flavour of Auric Rune-thinger or a Berserker. It would actually be much simpler to explain to an opponent that "These guys are gunners, these guys are infantry, these guys are elite infantry," instead of "These guys are Hearthguards, and these guys are also Hearthguards but they're Berserkers too, and these other guys are also Berserkers but they're not Hearthguards, they're Vulkites, make sense?" Your opponent still has no ****** idea what's going on.

That's more a problem with nearly identical sculpts rather than names.

Edited by michu
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, michu said:

Especially when elvish cavalry never was simple "cavalry". We had Silver Helms, Ellyrian Reavers and Dragon Princes.

I'm actually all in favour of this, since the distinction becomes meaningful when there's actually a distinction to be made. But if your army only has one flavour of "dude on horse" then you're not going to bother coming up with a super-specific name for it.

13 minutes ago, michu said:

Maybe in your group. Whatever report I watch or whatever game I play I hear official names.

Check out some of Guerrilla Miniature Games' battle reports, for example. They tend refer to every unit as "these dorks", "these idiots", etc. Remembering obscure names under pressure isn't easy, and saying them out loud also tends to highlight how daft a lot of them are.

Quote

That's more a problem with nearly identical sculpts rather than names.

Near-identical sculpts and meaningless names with lots of word re-use are two separate problems that compound each other. Having one or the other is manageable, but both is difficult.

Edited by Kadeton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...