Shootcast - The Thread.

[Marcvs]

5 minutes ago, PJetski said:

It's in the FAQ/errata. You can find them on the Warhammer community website

So, the part about not being able to use it more than once on a unit is in the errata https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/c3e42c6e.pdf

While the fact that, when shooting in the hero phase, hurricanes do not get the extra shots for not having moved comes from an analogy with Longstrikes in the commentary here https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/58cba042.pdf

Edited March 10, 2020 by Marcvs

[Andrethegreat]

3 hours ago, Marcvs said:

So, the part about not being able to use it more than once on a unit is in the errata https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/c3e42c6e.pdf

While the fact that, when shooting in the hero phase, hurricanes do not get the extra shots for not having moved comes from an analogy with Longstrikes in the commentary here https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/58cba042.pdf

Thanks! for the Information, this changes things, just when I thought I figured out how to make my vanguard army some what competitive, Now this. OK, this is a big  set back, Not, sure.  what I should do, I'm thinking about just walking away from Stormcast or AOS, As a new player I'm starting feel like I waste my money on a broken army, But still think you all for informing me. 

[CommissarRotke]

don't give up on stormcast, especially if you enjoy the look of the models. I kinda feel the same way but their aesthetic and parts of the lore is really what drove me to ultimately pick them when getting back into AOS. You don't have to be competitive; narrative or smaller matched play is fine too. you can use em in Warcry as well, especially Vanguard

[Mark Williams]

2 hours ago, Andrethegreat said:

Thanks! for the Information, this changes things, just when I thought I figured out how to make my vanguard army some what competitive, Now this. OK, this is a big  set back, Not, sure.  what I should do, I'm thinking about just walking away from Stormcast or AOS, As a new player I'm starting feel like I waste my money on a broken army, But still think you all for informing me. 

Sorry you're have such a bad time with Stormcast. I admit they are in a bad place.

[Milano]

They can be fun and able to win some games..IF used properly. I play myself a pure vanguard army. You can see that in some of my threads I opened.
First: Dont stick to the one-drop mega battalion of vanguard too much. Yes its fun to try, I did it my self. But totally useless in games. You chip a wound here and there, do some coole moves, grab objectives but mostly you get overrun in turn 2. Check other vanguard lists! Think of allies or accepting other chambers like Sacrosanct and Draconis

Second: You need at least one solid hammer. Most factions nowadays have 3+ in a 2k game. So install 9 raptors with AH, 6 palladors with CV aso.
Third: focus fire 🔥 use the advantage that all your forces shoot. Kill/Weaken important targets before your opponent has a chance to use them

..and most of all have fun with them in casual games. That army is not a tournament performer. But lets see what the future (rules) bring. Cheers

[Marcvs]

13 hours ago, Andrethegreat said:

Thanks! for the Information, this changes things, just when I thought I figured out how to make my vanguard army some what competitive, Now this. OK, this is a big  set back, Not, sure.  what I should do, I'm thinking about just walking away from Stormcast or AOS, As a new player I'm starting feel like I waste my money on a broken army, But still think you all for informing me. 

Ok so, first of all, I have no personal mission of convincing you to keep playing Stormcasts. If you feel like switching army or game, go for it, the ultimate objective is, after all, to have a good time.

That being said, a few comments:

1) If your objective is to win tournaments, definitely SCE is not a good choice at the moment

2) I personally enjoy playing with an army which statistically starts with an handicap. Every victory feels deserved while losses sting less (and are good occasions to learn). I believe it's a good way to learn how to play better, although it can be taxing on your motivation if you need victories to keep on playing.

3) In my experience, a decently thought out list of SCE performs better than what the statiscs of tournament play imply. To clarify, my experience is the one of a relatively new player with a lot of good will, playing serious games (i.e. training with tournament lists) against local competitive players. I have played (ok, with a somewhat bizarre list, see the Starcast thread) against "meta" armies (Tzeentch with flamers, OBR with morteks, BCR monster list...) and never had the feeling of being utterly crushed

4) One last point about your list, similar to what @Milano just said: if you drop the mega-battallion, consolidate the hurricanes in one unit (to really profit from the anvils CA) and consider what you need afterwards by trying it out, it might still be a good list against many opponents without doubling down too much in terms of your economic investment in SCEs

[gronnelg]

I personally have had a hard time playing against Surecharge lists. With Gavriel and a bunch of evocators waiting up in the sky, for me to make a mistake or open myself up to much. And then *BAM!* 
I seems like a fun list to play as well. Just watching and waiting for an opening and then taking it.
Edit: I assume it's not super competitiv, but it will certainly do in a friendly game.

Edited March 11, 2020 by gronnelg

[Andrethegreat]

15 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

don't give up on stormcast, especially if you enjoy the look of the models. I kinda feel the same way but their aesthetic and parts of the lore is really what drove me to ultimately pick them when getting back into AOS. You don't have to be competitive; narrative or smaller matched play is fine too. you can use em in Warcry as well, especially Vanguard

 

15 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

Sorry you're have such a bad time with Stormcast. I admit they are in a bad place.

 

4 hours ago, Marcvs said:

Ok so, first of all, I have no personal mission of convincing you to keep playing Stormcasts. If you feel like switching army or game, go for it, the ultimate objective is, after all, to have a good time.

That being said, a few comments:

1) If your objective is to win tournaments, definitely SCE is not a good choice at the moment

2) I personally enjoy playing with an army which statistically starts with an handicap. Every victory feels deserved while losses sting less (and are good occasions to learn). I believe it's a good way to learn how to play better, although it can be taxing on your motivation if you need victories to keep on playing.

3) In my experience, a decently thought out list of SCE performs better than what the statiscs of tournament play imply. To clarify, my experience is the one of a relatively new player with a lot of good will, playing serious games (i.e. training with tournament lists) against local competitive players. I have played (ok, with a somewhat bizarre list, see the Starcast thread) against "meta" armies (Tzeentch with flamers, OBR with morteks, BCR monster list...) and never had the feeling of being utterly crushed

4) One last point about your list, similar to what @Milano just said: if you drop the mega-battallion, consolidate the hurricanes in one unit (to really profit from the anvils CA) and consider what you need afterwards by trying it out, it might still be a good list against many opponents without doubling down too much in terms of your economic investment in SCEs

 

3 hours ago, gronnelg said:

I personally have had a hard time playing against Surecharge lists. With Gavriel and a bunch of evocators waiting up in the sky, for me to make a mistake or open myself up to much. And then *BAM!* 
I seems like a fun list to play as well. Just watching and waiting for an opening and then taking it.
Edit: I assume it's not super competitiv, but it will certainly do in a friendly game.

I would like to thank you all for your feed back, after sleeping on it, I will stay with my Stromcast.  but I will like to stay this, It feels like GW is trying to make things hard for the Stromcast, I don't understand that Q&A to limit the shooting ability of the Stromcast  in the hero phase, when every other army is some type of horde army. stromcast armies are for the most part out number and the one thing that the Vanguard army has going for it,  is shooting. I don't understand why my shooting attack with my Raptors would be 18 dice when in my list which it is a chamber, and my chamber would give a +1 in all shooting attacks but  not my heroes, My Raptors shoot with 6 dice if they move, but because my Raptors are in the Vanguard Auxiliary chamber shouldn't that be 7 dice which makes it 21 dice at least? I was having fun with my Stromcast up to the point of the Q&A. Also  why is it that other armies can spend any number of command points on there units  but not Anvils? Maybe, I'm wrong. Forgive if I aim.         

[PJetski]

12 minutes ago, Andrethegreat said:

I would like to thank you all for your feed back, after sleeping on it, I will stay with my Stromcast.  but I will like to stay this, It feels like GW is trying to make things hard for the Stromcast, I don't understand that Q&A to limit the shooting ability of the Stromcast  in the hero phase, when every other army is some type of horde army. stromcast armies are for the most part out number and the one thing that the Vanguard army has going for it,  is shooting. I don't understand why my shooting attack with my Raptors would be 18 dice when in my list which it is a chamber, and my chamber would give a +1 in all shooting attacks but  not my heroes, My Raptors shoot with 6 dice if they move, but because my Raptors are in the Vanguard Auxiliary chamber shouldn't that be 7 dice which makes it 21 dice at least? I was having fun with my Stromcast up to the point of the Q&A. Also  why is it that other armies can spend any number of command points on there units  but not Anvils? Maybe, I'm wrong. Forgive if I aim.         

If they didn't limit the Anvils command ability then the only stormcast list would be 12 raptors and command point generation, shooting everything off the table in the first round with 6 command points.

[Andrethegreat]

59 minutes ago, PJetski said:

If they didn't limit the Anvils command ability then the only stormcast list would be 12 raptors and command point generation, shooting everything off the table in the first round with 6 command points.

Ok! I see your point, But I think still think it should be 21 dice and not 18.

[snipersyn]

4 hours ago, Andrethegreat said:

Ok! I see your point, But I think still think it should be 21 dice and not 18.

Yes, under the Vanguard Auxiliary Chamber, the units of Hurricane Crossbows would gain additional attack equalling a total of 21 attacks per unit of 3 since they're not heroes. It would be 30 attacks per unit of 3 if they didn't move in the movement phase for this battalion.

Edited March 11, 2020 by snipersyn

[CommissarRotke]

8 hours ago, Andrethegreat said:

I don't understand that Q&A to limit the shooting ability of the Stromcast  in the hero phase

because the wording of the skill even leans towards that interpretation- the Hero Phase is 'in limbo' per se because you have not had the opportunity to move yet. If you haven't had the chance to move, then you can't choose to not move. Shooting in the HP is good on it's own, and I feel like you could bait a good amount of opponents into feeling safe now that they don't have to plan 36" in said phase.

[The World Tree]

Yes, FAQs shouldn't be about buffing or nerfing units, they should be about reinforcing rules logic. Erratas, different story.

[Andrethegreat]

I would like to know if GW read the stuff here, would be nice if they do.

[Maturin]

21 hours ago, Andrethegreat said:

I would like to know if GW read the stuff here, would be nice if they do.

I woudln't count on that sadly. I felt like you too. I started WFB in 2014, just to see it crushed to birth AOS.
I swore I would never play AOS because of what it did to the Old world, then in started to play last year, with SCE, because they were kind of cheap to get.
I bought a batch of evocators/sequitors and bam, one month later, they got nerfed !!!

But you can still have fun with you own, at smaller points level, vanguard are very effective due to their teleporting moves! Try against a frien of yours 1250/1500 games. Vanguard can be annoying to deal with

[Andrethegreat]

On 3/14/2020 at 8:16 AM, Maturin said:

I woudln't count on that sadly. I felt like you too. I started WFB in 2014, just to see it crushed to birth AOS.
I swore I would never play AOS because of what it did to the Old world, then in started to play last year, with SCE, because they were kind of cheap to get.
I bought a batch of evocators/sequitors and bam, one month later, they got nerfed !!!

But you can still have fun with you own, at smaller points level, vanguard are very effective due to their teleporting moves! Try against a frien of yours 1250/1500 games. Vanguard can be annoying to deal with

I have and you are right, I have been playing games at 1000 points, and I get very close to winning games, So, far. two ties in the games I have played.   

[Heaven_lord]

Hey, would you have some ideas for 1k points shootcast list for meeting engagements/doubles games?

Thanks

[Marcvs]

1 hour ago, Heaven_lord said:

Hey, would you have some ideas for 1k points shootcast list for meeting engagements/doubles games?

Thanks

I am no veteran so take this with a large pinch of salt, but I have had some fun and decent success in 1k games (don't know if it can work in ME though) with the following:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (220)
- General
- Command Trait: Deathly Aura
- Artefact: Soulthief
- Spell: Lightning Blast
Knight-Vexillor (120)
- Pennant of the Stormbringer
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (340)
3 x Aetherwings (50)

Total: 990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 50

Basic idea is to shoot shoot, block a charge with the aetherwings and use sequitors (together with vexillor) to counter charge / grab objectives. Then relocate with the pennant and follow with winds aetheric so that you can keep using the CA. Possible variations: i) downgrading the sequitors to liberators to include another unit of aetherwings or ii) go full 9 raptors by going incantor + relictor and libs (might be worth it in a double)

[readercolin]

1 hour ago, Heaven_lord said:

Hey, would you have some ideas for 1k points shootcast list for meeting engagements/doubles games?

Thanks

The only good shooting at 1k points is Longstrikes (arguments can be made at 2k for ballista's + ordinator).

The core of a shootcast list is 9 raptors + a way to manuever them.  Here is one build:

Lord-Aquilor
9 Vanguard-Raptor's with Longstrike Crossbows
5 Liberators
5 Liberators

This comes out to 890 points, leaving 100 points for either 2 units of aetherwings, or 1 unit of aetherwings and 1 extra command point.  The Lord-Aquilor gives you a way to re-locate your vanguard raptors, and he can ride the winds aetheric to catch up wherever he moves them to (which is the downside with some of the other options - they can move the longstrikes, but then you no longer are in range to shoot in the hero phase).

However, while this is great for 1000 point games or doubles games, it is not a legal meeting engagement list.  To do that, you would have to split the longstrikes up into 2 units, with 1 unit of 6 and 1 unit of 3.  Another thing to be aware of - you can expect your unit of longstrikes to do ~11 damage to a 5+ save each time they get to shoot, assuming that they are a full unit.  Most of the time, I find 1000 point lists have somewhere between 50-70 wounds.  So you will need to make sure that your longstrikes are unharmed through your turn 2, preferably turn 3.  So screen carefully, and don't worry about losing your liberators or aetherwings as long as it means that your longstrikes are unharmed.

[Evantas]

 

On 3/24/2020 at 8:13 AM, readercolin said:

The only good shooting at 1k points is Longstrikes (arguments can be made at 2k for ballista's + ordinator).

The core of a shootcast list is 9 raptors + a way to manuever them.  Here is one build:

... ...

However, while this is great for 1000 point games or doubles games, it is not a legal meeting engagement list.  To do that, you would have to split the longstrikes up into 2 units, with 1 unit of 6 and 1 unit of 3.  Another thing to be aware of - you can expect your unit of longstrikes to do ~11 damage to a 5+ save each time they get to shoot, assuming that they are a full unit.  Most of the time, I find 1000 point lists have somewhere between 50-70 wounds.  So you will need to make sure that your longstrikes are unharmed through your turn 2, preferably turn 3.  So screen carefully, and don't worry about losing your liberators or aetherwings as long as it means that your longstrikes are unharmed.

The problem with Meeting Engagement Hurricanes is that you either have a min sized unit, or they are generally only available turn 2 onwards. Same problem with Ballistas. 

However MEs at my local are still winnable with SCE, but the lists have been focused around Gavriel + Evocators or Dracolines + Lord Arcanum. 

[readercolin]

3 hours ago, Evantas said:

The problem with Meeting Engagement Hurricanes is that you either have a min sized unit, or they are generally only available turn 2 onwards. Same problem with Ballistas. 

However MEs at my local are still winnable with SCE, but the lists have been focused around Gavriel + Evocators or Dracolines + Lord Arcanum. 

True, meeting engagements operate very differently from normal 1k games.  However, evocator heavy lists aren't shootcast, which is why I didn't recommend one of them, as that wasn't what @Heaven_Lord was requesting.  For myself, this is the list that I pull out for meeting engagements:

Spearhead:
3x Evocators of Dracolines

Main Body:
Lord-Arcanum on Dracoline
10x Sequitors

Rearguard:
3x Evocators on Dracolines

Generally, a 3 man unit of kitties is enough to run over any other min sized squad out there, and I usually run them as Celestial Vindicators, so I get re-roll 1's to hit on the charge.  This has been very successful for me when I have played meeting engagements, and also demonstrates one of the quirks of the format as compared to a 1k game - you only need 1 unit of battleline.

However, the unit size requirements really make it hard to play a shootcast style list.  Because you really want to have that block of 9 longstrikes, and that is completely impossible in meeting engagements.  The only way that you can get a large(ish) shooting block is a unit of 10 judicators.  Of course, said shooting block does less damage than a 6 man block of longstrikes, but because they are battleline you can put it in your main body and get an extra round of shooting off.

The best "Shootcast" list that I can come up with for meeting engagements would be the following:

Spearhead:
5x Liberators

Main Body:
Lord-Aquilor
10x Judicators
3x Aetherwings

Rearguard:
6x Longstrikes