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HollowHills

Ossiarch Bonereapers, hideously overpowered?

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I think it's likely that the points of other models and the rules for the terrain are already working in concert. In other words, the train already has a cost (either points or lessened abilities for rest of the army) that it built into the other models.

Edited by Sleboda

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Neither the points nor abilities of the Bonereapers seem adjusted to factor in either their allegiance or terrain ;)

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9 hours ago, Eldarain said:

That sounds like an indictment of the quality of the 40k terrain rules more than an inherent problem with terrain points costs.

 

Points costs are far more likely to work as there are too many cases where them being free creates imbalance (as Krungharr pointed out in their Spiderfang Gloomspite example)

The nexus having such extremely powerful placement/size/influence just drives home the point currently.

Perhaps, but it also shows, in case anyone was doubting it, that just giving it points doesn't automatically make things better. Personally I rather have people use free faction terrain that's a bit too strong than not using any faction terrain at all.
At least it can't be spammed like other too strong units.

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@Sleboda I MIGHT have to change my opinion of OBR being OP.

1500 point game against em. Played as Ironjawz, who I had just got an army for and was my first game as them.  Fought a Petrifex list that was meh, and the player fully admitted they forgot a lot, but... I won.

My list:

Megaboss on Maw-krusha  460

- Heavy 'Un

- Ironsunz CT

- Ironsunz Artefact

Weirdnob Shaman 110

- Great Big Green Hand of Gork

- Great Green Visions

Warchanter 110

-Fixin' Beat

Ardboyz x10 180

- All upgrady things

Brutes x5 140

- Brute Choppas

Goregruntas x6 320

- Gore-hackas

- Ironfist Leader 

Ironfist 160

His:

Leige-Kavalos 200

20 Mortek 260

20 Mortek 260

Mortek Crawler 200

Gothizzar Harvester 200

Gothizzar Harvester 200

Soulmason 140

 

He went first and one-shotted my Weirdnob with the Crawler, eliminating my strategy of teleporting my Ardboyz to kill the Crawler. Otherwise, he just moved his guys forward. My turn, I use Mighty Destroyers twice to move my Goregruntas forward and they are able to charge into his unit of 20 Mortek screening the Crawler. My Megaboss moves in and charges the Mortek, though I accidentally engage him with a Harvester. 9 mortal wounds are dealt on a charge to the Mortek. My Mawrusha attacks and reduces the Mortek to 1. Stupid. Model. *sigh*. His Harvester piles in and attacks the Mawkrusha, doing 13 wounds. OW. Gore-Gruntas pile in max length, damage buffed by the Warchanter, killing the Harvester. Mission accomplished, care less about winning. Anyhow, he wins initiative. Gothizzars kill the Maw-Krusha and  his Leige kills 2 Gore-Gruntas. The Gore-Gruntas kill one of his Harvesters and the remaining Mortek. My turn, I attack dealing 1 wound to his Soulmason and 2 wounds to his other Harvester. Ardboyz get into combat and team up with the Gore-gruntas to kill the Harvester, though not before it kills 2 more Gore-Gruntas. Soul-Mason kills an Ardboy. I lose initiative again and his other Mortek kill 6 of the Ardboyz. Owwie. Leige kills the other two Gore-Gruntas and the Boyz kill 6 Mortek.  The Boyz all run from battleshock. I'm up by point by A LOT at this point, and we call it there. Nothing would have changed.

SO maybe OBR isnt broken. Slightly.

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On 11/26/2019 at 10:04 PM, Panzer said:

Please no. I love that the faction terrain is free in AoS. You never see any in 40k because it's just not worth it compared to buying more units. GW just needs to balance them properly.

So, the terrain should just be a monetary tax on the player instead of a strategic choice?

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1 minute ago, zilberfrid said:

So, the terrain should just be a monetary tax on the player instead of a strategic choice?

I hope you realise yourself how ridiculous it is to talk about monetary tax in this hobby.

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Yeah the whole game is a tax if you view it that way. 

GW has clearly gone out of their way to make terrain a thing that gamers buy from GW. In the past terrain was far more home made (which also came with lots of tables of cloth over stacked books for hills etc...). GW has really pushed for more GW brand terrain to be one more tabletops and part of that was faction terrain. It encourages everyone to end up owning at least one terrain kit from GW which can then increase the chance that people will buy more of it. 

I think its also part of GW encouraging more terrain on AoS tables in general, esp since old world fantasy was quite terrain light (rank and file games tend to be on the 28mm scale because they need room to wheel and turn formations). 

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1 hour ago, MKsmash said:

@Sleboda I MIGHT have to change my opinion of OBR being OP.

1500 point game against em. Played as Ironjawz, who I had just got an army for and was my first game as them.  Fought a Petrifex list that was meh, and the player fully admitted they forgot a lot, but... I won.

<Snip>

SO maybe OBR isnt broken. Slightly.

I hope you realize how silly it is to comment on game balance based off 1 game between two players who are doing tons of mistakes and apparently dont really know their own army.

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48 minutes ago, Panzer said:

I hope you realise yourself how ridiculous it is to talk about monetary tax in this hobby.

If it does not cost points, the whole army must be balanced with it on the table.

It's about as important as the battletome.

Taking it out of the allegiance abilities would be the most logical place.

 

Or, you know, just give it a point value.

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21 minutes ago, Kasper said:

I hope you realize how silly it is to comment on game balance based off 1 game between two players who are doing tons of mistakes and apparently dont really know their own army.

Considering he was commenting in a thread entitled "Ossiarch Bonereapers, hideously overpowered?" that was started before any of the models or battle tome had even been released I think it's fair to say that expecting peer reviewed analysis based upon double blind tests with control groups here is, perhaps, a bit of an ask.

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1 hour ago, JPjr said:

Considering he was commenting in a thread entitled "Ossiarch Bonereapers, hideously overpowered?" that was started before any of the models or battle tome had even been released I think it's fair to say that expecting peer reviewed analysis based upon double blind tests with control groups here is, perhaps, a bit of an ask.

I dont understand your sarcasm at all and frankly find your post stupid. 

I was pointing out how silly it was to try and gouge any kind of balance from a single game of 1.500 pts between what was explained as two inexperienced players.

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I have played against them twice now and I would not say they are overpowered. Tough, ****** yeah, but not OP

I think people get thrown up by how tanky and grinding the battleline can be.

1: Arkhan/Katakros healing is really good, especially combined with Mortek guard and ability. But once they are dead the troops get whittled down 

2 Mortek guard are susceptible vs shooting, as the reroll shield ability is only in close combat

3: They are not a fast moving army, unless they take the legion that can run and charge...but then they are not taking Pentifx elite (which is whats making them so tanky)

4: Mortal wounds are your friend vs Mortek guard

5: Engage multiple units. Remember their "relentless discipline points" are for both players turns. So if they are burning through their RD to give rend and reroll saves on mulitple units they will run out. 
 

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My issue with OBR, is not only their brokenness... But to play against was Boring in my opinion

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45 minutes ago, peasant said:

My issue with OBR, is not only their brokenness... But to play against was Boring in my opinion

that’s the most fair thing I would give to people in this thread. If you don’t like dealing with highly defensive armies they are not going to be a joy for you to play against. I personally hate gun line armies. They are not OP, I just in my opinion don’t enjoy Fighting them. Different strokes for different folks

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5 hours ago, Kasper said:

I hope you realize how silly it is to comment on game balance based off 1 game between two players who are doing tons of mistakes and apparently dont really know their own army.

Sir, I was talking to @Sleboda, as he had made this same comment after I lost to Petrifex the first time. Yes, I had played them before this and I was continuing a conversation. Thank you for the criticism, but please don't interfere. And if you must, see the whole conversation beforehand.

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On 11/23/2019 at 2:39 PM, Edoval said:

Is there an answer to the title of this subject now ?

I mean, games have been played, maybe some people bring Ossiarch-Bonereapers to tournaments.
Are they so strong ? What about their power in Petrifex ? And in other legions or without one ?

I bought the army before reading the battletome because i liked the models, but i wonder if this a fun army to play against for my friends...

 

Sorry not a native speaker.

Yes they are overpower at the lvl of slanesh and skavens and also arent fun to figth againts due to how broken is a save of 3 reroling 1 with special save of 5 .

 

Last tournament and first with bonereapers and they have won it allready(to be frank have been a tie betwen slanesh bonereaper and korne) also with a 65% win rate.

 

People saying arent broken are bonereapers players,data is allready showing us how broken they are

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4 hours ago, prochuvi said:

Yes they are overpower at the lvl of slanesh and skavens and also arent fun to figth againts due to how broken is a save of 3 reroling 1 with special save of 5 .

 

Last tournament and first with bonereapers and they have won it allready(to be frank have been a tie betwen slanesh bonereaper and korne) also with a 65% win rate.

 

People saying arent broken are bonereapers players,data is allready showing us how broken they are

Going to have to disagree with pretty much all of this (except the not being fun to fight against, where I have no opinion of it, as I haven't fought against it). 

I am presuming by "last tournament" you mean the Krigsluntan GT? If so you are clearly skewing results and stats to fit your own agenda and impression of the army.  Don't say the "data" shows this when it clearly doesn't.  As I mentioned in this post: 

Only ONE person went higher than 3-2 in this tournament and the one that did is one of the best players in Sweden.  They probably could have taken a GA: Death army and still come in the top 3. 

As for the win %, what about that DoT win percentage of 70% with only 4 players? Where is your outrage there? Yes, DoT have less than 50% in general and you know why that is? Because the more play an army, the lower the match win % goes (ok that is not the only reason, but it is a contributing factor). How many players took OBR to the tournament? 8. Only EIGHT (I thought it was 9 but one player didn't show it seems) players and you are basing everything on that. So with that in mind, how can you say they are OP based off of ONE tournament, with one of the players being the best in the country. Oh and the OBR win % was 62.2%. Don't round up the number to fit your own agenda. If you are going to use "data" as your argument and you want to round things, you should round down in this instance.  Lastly, regarding this particular win %. How much are you willing to factor in novelty, freshness and the lack of opportunity for opponents to get accustomed to OBR? This is obviously a factor when facing off against a brand new opponent. 

Do they seem strong as a result of this tournament? Yes, but it is questionable to what extent. 5 out of the 8 players went 3-2, which is perfectly reasonable. You know what 5 out of 8 is as a %? 62.5%. You know what 3 out of 5 is (3-2 win/ loss)? 60%. So 62.5% of OBR players won 60% of their games (3-2 result). Are you seeing a pattern here? The pattern being that based on this one result, it seems that they are good, but if I am a good player, I can do better and if I am not so good, I will do worse? And again, how much does novelty and freshness factor in? What happens when people get used to OBR? Will this go down? Could also be that people start finding more powerful synergies and so it could go up? Who knows what could happen! And that is the point, no one can yet. If anything can be taken away from this tournament regarding OBR, and as much as it doesn't make sense really, it's that they seem to be a consistent 3-2 army.  But to say anything more than that based on one tournament result is pure madness until more come in. 

Edited by Heijoshin
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On 11/17/2019 at 5:09 AM, prochuvi said:

The +1 save must go away.

 

Also nagash getting every buff of the book must go away also.

 

The stacking feel no pain(or special save) must go away also.

 

Then and only then bonereapers gonna start to be close to balanced

Then bonereapers as a whole must go away.... ;) 

you seem on a bit of a crusade against the obr seeing your above post about the data. Just out of curiosity. How many games have you played against them? 

Edited by Kramer

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Apologies, I am perhaps too used to football forums where we all take the ****** out of each other. 

That aside, I know at times I can make really strong statement that run counter narrative. It's mostly a methodology flowing from my history in competitive athletics where data analysis, and strategy are considered at a much deeper and broad manner than currently displayed in wargaming.  I wonder if there is really a demographic that would be interested in any of that. Or at least enough to start a thread on it at least. 

Anyway pm me if you are interest and if there is enough interest I'll do a thread with some basic outline info.

Edited by whispersofblood
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16 hours ago, Kasper said:

I dont understand your sarcasm at all and frankly find your post stupid. 

Just a thought, but maybe consider not calling someone with whom you disagree "stupid."

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So here is my thought as this thread is getting a bit heated. Let’s table the discussion for 60 days.  By then we will have a lot more actionable data from honest wargamers Stat show and we can start screaming at each other with real data instead of anecdotal evidence. 

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