Ossiarch Bonereapers, hideously overpowered?

[Dolomyte]

19 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

iirc DoK lost? Legions of Nagash lost as well, Gobbos lost, Idoneth lost.

they don‘t stage those battles, they just duke it out.

 

@Dolomyte hard counter? The way Ossiarchs seem to be they hard counter every faction. The only points you can say about Slaanesh which they‘re not the best at are armour saves and shooting. So I don‘t see how OBR are only a hard counter to Slaanesh which is a strong melee army in a melee game. Also note that most shooting is rather lackluster (or lacks sufficient rend to deal with OBR). I am rather certain that OBR will proof too resilient to be beaten at all. 

people were sure gotrek would dominate the game too. They cost a ton of points. They are going to have issues with horde armies. They are incredibly mortal wound vulnerable. This is hot take terror everyone seems to be experiencing right now

[JackStreicher]

10 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

people were sure gotrek would dominate the game too. They cost a ton of points. They are going to have issues with horde armies. They are incredibly mortal wound vulnerable. This is hot take terror everyone seems to be experiencing right now

I never saw Gotrek as an issue.

 The part about hordes  seems to be questiobable. they outlast horses and outdamage them. In most cases.

[Overread]

They can likely outlast hordes, but at the same time a horde army can likely lock down the reapers. This is a problem when you've an army which, without buffs (which cost command points which compete with other command point abilities) is naturally slow to move. Losing even one turn of movement is going to hurt their core powerbase; whilst also overstretch their faster units. 

I think that Reapers will punish any player who plays them and doesn't make the right calls on abilities and a long term game plan. 

[Eevika]

33 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

people were sure gotrek would dominate the game too. They cost a ton of points. They are going to have issues with horde armies. They are incredibly mortal wound vulnerable. This is hot take terror everyone seems to be experiencing right now

Anyone with actual competitive experience knew Gotrek would do nothing. 

[Dolomyte]

1 minute ago, Eevika said:

Anyone with actual competitive experience knew Gotrek would do nothing. 

Ditto for reapers. Well change that, I think they are an amazing thing for the games health. They are going to force some of the top lists to compensate for them and open up a more balanced meta. I’m not saying they are not a good army, I’m saying they are a 3 and 2 and sometimes 4 and 1 army. They are not going to be taking 1st 3rd 4th and 6th st every event like slaanesh was, or flesh eater courts before them, or daughters before them. 

[Skreech Verminking]

12 hours ago, Sleboda said:

For many, many ... many years I've attended tournaments with cruddy armies. I tried my best, and won a few here and there, but it was always a major uphill climb.

I'm soooooo planning to be "that guy" with this army. Not in terms of being an actual ******, looking for loopholes, etc. But definitely in terms of building the most powerful, one-sided, crushing army I can. I'm buying a minimum -minimum!- of 20,000 points of the army. I will be able to field full-sized units in multiples for all options.

I'm so totally in on the army.

For once. For on time in my Sigmar-forsaken GW tournament life, I wanna crush all who stand before me with an army that has a plan and mitigates chance. I hate chance so very much. Hate it.

This army speaks to my blackened, shriveled soul and I will embrace the That Guy of it.

Please, let the early evaluations be right. I freaking deserve it.

 

🙂

13warprflamers and a ton of chittering laughter later..

Edited November 1, 2019 by Skreech Verminking

[Kasper]

2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

iirc DoK lost? Legions of Nagash lost as well, Gobbos lost, Idoneth lost.

they don‘t stage those battles, they just duke it out.

 

@Dolomyte hard counter? The way Ossiarchs seem to be they hard counter every faction. The only points you can say about Slaanesh which they‘re not the best at are armour saves and shooting. So I don‘t see how OBR are only a hard counter to Slaanesh which is a strong melee army in a melee game. Also note that most shooting is rather lackluster (or lacks sufficient rend to deal with OBR). I am rather certain that OBR will proof too resilient to be beaten at all. 

I didn't watch any of those. But did they really lose big time? Theres a difference between showcasing a new army being dumpstered and putting up a fight with one of the current kings.

[Ninjon]

I know it's been brought up, but if the Kavalos Deathriders CA isn't FAQ'd to only be used once per charge phase (per unit), it could really be devastating. 

- Unit of 15 Riders, use the CA 5 times on impact (1 for free with the Battalion, and that really isn't an exorbitant amount of CP given how many the army can produce): 75 dice, 25 MW on average (deleting the target), and THEN you get to pile in an extra 15" in the combat phase (whatever else is closest gets rammed). 

- All 15 Riders do not have to be engaged for the MWs to hit, just a unit within 1" 

- It screws over 'fights first/fights last' shenanigans because it happens in the charge phase

- Even if you do get bogged down, with the battalion you can just retreat and charge to do it all over again 

- The tactic is strong enough to even take in units of 10 (points are always an issue with this army) and blow up most threats on impact 

 

Will this get FAQ'd? My gut says yes, as it doesn't feel like its 'the way the rule was intended when written', but dumber rules have stuck around in this game and it requires a pretty heavy investment for you to pull off. 

[Skreech Verminking]

59 minutes ago, Ninjon said:

CA 5 times on

That’s a lot of cps used!

is there something i’ve missed with the cp generation of the bonereapers??

[relic456]

9 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

That’s a lot of cps used!

is there something i’ve missed with the cp generation of the bonereapers??

Yup, they don't use CPs in the same way other armies due, they have the following as an allegiance ability

• You cannot use Command Points, instead use Relentless Discipline (RD) points.

  • Start of each battle round before deciding who has priority, you get RD points for:

    • each OB hero on the battlefield (1 each)

    • Each LIEGE unit on the battlefield (1 each)

    • each battalion in your army (1 each)

    • Having Katakros in your army (3)

    • Rolling a dice for each other unit, and rolling a 6 (1 per 6 rolled)

• Used the same as Command Points, but only for abilities on OB warscrolls, and Unstoppable Advance
• RD points do not carry over between battle rounds.

 

Edited November 1, 2019 by relic456
formatting

[Dolomyte]

Yes if that does not get nerfed it will be an issue, but I think everyone is anticipating that’s once per turn 

[Skreech Verminking]

29 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

Yes if that does not get nerfed it will be an issue, but I think everyone is anticipating that’s once per turn 

Hah, funny, so basically after having had the very quickly generating summoning point army slannesh, we seem to have gotten a heavy cp now called RP spamming army.

really am interested to see what comes next.

well at least their horde unit cost a fortune (and if I am lucky another reason for another points-reduction on my beloved Stormvermin)

[Dolomyte]

Everything they have costs a fortune. That’s the balancing mechanic for the army.  

[swarmofseals]

On 10/30/2019 at 1:58 PM, Forrix said:

I feel like there are a lot of euphemisms in that sentence... For the record, I think the title of this thread is hyperbolic but I am concerned about how this army will turn out. If anything the extreme power granted by some of the subfaction (i.e. + 1 save army wide) makes balance extremely difficult as the value of the units changes so much between the subfactions and especially vs no sub-faction.  Also, if in 6 months, this faction is sitting at a sub 50% win rate (barring major FAQ changes) I will eat my own shoes. A 3+ save, rerolling saves, battleshock immune unit for 130 points per 10 is incredibly strong even before factoring in another buffs and model recursion.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "euphemisms" -- I thought I was being pretty direct in stating that the warscrolls are not efficient at baseline, but that the army has access to a lot of strong buffs which might make them good. The wide range of command abilities, the Petrifex Elite subfaction bonuses and a couple of the artefacts and spells are all a part of the overall buff package that I was referring to.

Setting the bar at a 50% win rate is a pretty intense moving of the goalposts. The original (and very leading) question is whether the faction is "hideously overpowered". To me, that means an unhealthy win rate likely over 60%. You agree that the thread title is hyperbolic, which is my main argument (over the course of my posts in this thread).

My problem with this thread is twofold:

1. People are largely being  overconfident about their assessments of this army. I love theoryhammer as much as the next guy, but there are a lot of extreme claims floating around based on nothing more than theory. 
2. I'm seeing a lot of emphasis on the army's strengths without nearly so much attention paid to the army's weaknesses. 

In the interests of balancing the second point out a bit, here are my thoughts on the army's weaknesses:

Everybody is talking about the defensive power of this army, particularly Mortek Guard. A 3+ rerollable save is great, no question about it. These models are expensive though, and their reliance on armor makes them quite vulnerable to mortal wounds. Their reroll is only for the combat phase as well, so they are also very vulnerable to shooting, particularly high rend shooting. 

At baseline, the army is pretty disappointing on offense. They do have a bunch of great buffs though which help mitigate that: +1 attack CA, -1 rend CA, two different +1H bubbles and a +1W bubble, and a couple of decent buff spells. If you manage to stack all these up, the offensive efficiency really gets quite good.

The problem is that everything in this army is expensive. If you want competent magic you are going to need to spend 360 points for Arkhan OR take two battalions OR give up access to Helm of the Ordained or the +1 to wound artefact. And even then all of your casting bonuses are tied up in one model who will be very vulnerable to getting blasted off the table unless you spend another 200 on some Immortis Guard.

If you want the +1A command ability that's another 200 points minimum. Mortek Crawlers are nice, but to put out an actually threatening amount of ranged damage you will need more than one and they clock in at 200 each. 

Your big blocks are going to cost you 440 or 480, and your battleline is minimum 130.

If you want to keep your drops low, you will need at least one battalion.

This all adds up really quickly, and you will quickly find that if you want to have access to those offensive buffs AND magic AND Petrifex Elite AND the best artefacts AND low drops, etc. etc. your points are taxed to the extreme.

_______________________

In the end I think this is going to be an army that is very, very strong in some aspects of the game and very vulnerable in others. Opponents that play into their strengths are going to have a really bad time, while others will exploit the weaknesses and have a much easier time. I think that in a mixed meta, bonereapers will do well. Will they dominate? I doubt it. I think they have several natural predators that should be reasonably popular. Will they be terrible? I doubt it. They have a lot of synergy and will be almost impossible for some opponents to beat. Will they be somewhere in the middle? Probably.

 

EDIT: And yeah, the Deathriders command spam thing seems clearly broken and I would expect it to be FAQ'ed. If it's not then all bets are off.

Edited November 1, 2019 by swarmofseals

[sal4m4nd3r]

7 hours ago, Dolomyte said:

people were sure gotrek would dominate the game too. They cost a ton of points. They are going to have issues with horde armies. They are incredibly mortal wound vulnerable. This is hot take terror everyone seems to be experiencing right now

being vulnerable to something that literally everyone in the game is vulnerable shouldn't be your major weakness. 

[Ninjon]

4 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

being vulnerable to something that literally everyone in the game is vulnerable shouldn't be your major weakness. 

Great point. And be aware that we can turn our 6+ shrug into a 5+ shrug, and throw on the additional 5+ shrug buff to the unit about to be hit is much more answers that most folks get. 

[Dolomyte]

3 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

being vulnerable to something that literally everyone in the game is vulnerable shouldn't be your major weakness. 

You know who is not vulnerable to that? Slaanesh, Skaven, daughters, fyreslayers. All really good armies. Partially due to fact they mostly don’t care about mortal wounds. They also aren’t sporting 210 points for 2 model units. 

[Dolomyte]

No one is saying they are going to be a bad army. They might not even be fun to play against for some people, but they are not the end all be all second coming people are painting them as. It’s a solid B army. Maybe B plus or A minus. It’s not S tier. 

[swarmofseals]

31 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

being vulnerable to something that literally everyone in the game is vulnerable shouldn't be your major weakness. 

This is just flatly not true. Any army that relies on either ward saves or cheap wound count is strong against mortal wounds. Generally speaking, mortal damage costs more to put on the table than non-rend damage. So consider 10 mortal damage vs. 20 rend 0 damage. If you are a 10 wound 3+ save unit, you would MUCH rather take 20 rend 0 damage than 10 mortal damage. If you're a 30 wound unit with no save, you'd MUCH rather take 10 mortals than 20 rend 0. The first unit is very vulnerable to mortal damage, the second unit is strong against mortal damage.

As @Dolomyte said, there are plenty of armies that are good against mortal damage.  I'd definitely add Bonesplitterz, some builds of Cities, some builds of Gloomspite Gitz, and Legions of Nagash to the list.

All of these armies rely on either ward saves, cheap wounds, or the ability to bulk out wounds through summoning.

 

26 minutes ago, Ninjon said:

Great point. And be aware that we can turn our 6+ shrug into a 5+ shrug, and throw on the additional 5+ shrug buff to the unit about to be hit is much more answers that most folks get. 

Turning the 6+ shrug into a 5+ shrug requires 1" proximity to a vulnerable support hero and requires using an artefact (and thus taking not one but two battalions if you want to go Petrifex and still take the Helm of the Ordained), while the 5+ MW shrug requires you to resolve a spell. Neither of these are reliable. It speaks to the point that I made earlier that yes, this army does have to tools to patch almost any hole but they are all costly and you can't afford to take everything you want to take. You *can* make an OBR army that is strong-ish against MW and spells, but it will severely reduce your offense and your defense against non-mortal damage. 

Also, even with BOTH the 5+ shrug and the 5+ MW shrug spell active, Mortek Guard (the most efficient warscroll in the army) still only have a defensive efficiency of .1875 against mortals. That's decent, but many other factions can do better.

[Ninjon]

1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

This is just flatly not true. Any army that relies on either ward saves or cheap wound count is strong against mortal wounds. Generally speaking, mortal damage costs more to put on the table than non-rend damage. So consider 10 mortal damage vs. 20 rend 0 damage. If you are a 10 wound 3+ save unit, you would MUCH rather take 20 rend 0 damage than 10 mortal damage. If you're a 30 wound unit with no save, you'd MUCH rather take 10 mortals than 20 rend 0. The first unit is very vulnerable to mortal damage, the second unit is strong against mortal damage.

As @Dolomyte said, there are plenty of armies that are good against mortal damage.  I'd definitely add Bonesplitterz, some builds of Cities, some builds of Gloomspite Gitz, and Legions of Nagash to the list.

All of these armies rely on either ward saves, cheap wounds, or the ability to bulk out wounds through summoning.

 

Turning the 6+ shrug into a 5+ shrug requires 1" proximity to a vulnerable support hero and requires using an artefact (and thus taking not one but two battalions if you want to go Petrifex and still take the Helm of the Ordained), while the 5+ MW shrug requires you to resolve a spell. Neither of these are reliable. It speaks to the point that I made earlier that yes, this army does have to tools to patch almost any hole but they are all costly and you can't afford to take everything you want to take. You *can* make an OBR army that is strong-ish against MW and spells, but it will severely reduce your offense and your defense against non-mortal damage. 

Also, even with BOTH the 5+ shrug and the 5+ MW shrug spell active, Mortek Guard (the most efficient warscroll in the army) still only have a defensive efficiency of .1875 against mortals. That's decent, but many other factions can do better.

This army’s recursion is respectable, which mitigates MW decently. And that’s not counting double harvester positioning to double dip on the 4+, meaning by the numbers Mortek never go down in number...

[Sedraxis]

I don't get why people automatically assume that the Deathriders Command Ability can be used multiple times. We all know it's not meant to be.

A unit only finishes a charge move once, so there is only one window to do it.  Same with the existing command abilities that happen after a unit fought for the first time and alike.

 

Please don't force even more and longer FAQs by assuming there are loopholes everywhere, there are plenty of badly written rules already so no need to push the well written ones in there too.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Sedraxis

[HollowHills]

13 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

The original (and very leading) question is whether the faction is "hideously overpowered". To me, that means an unhealthy win rate likely over 60%. You agree that the thread title is hyperbolic, which is my main argument (over the course of my posts in this thread).

As the creator of the thread, and I've said this before, I was being deliberately provocative to stoke debate. 

That said for me personally a hideously overpowered army would be if bonereapers had a 60% win rate plus a reasonably high meta representation. 

The only army that I see as being overpowered to an unreasonable extent at the moment would be slaanesh. So as long as OBR aren't as good or nearly as good as slaanesh they will probably be OK. 

[Ninjon]

4 hours ago, Sedraxis said:

I don't get why people automatically assume that the Deathriders Command Ability can be used multiple times. We all know it's not meant to be.

A unit only finishes a charge move once, so there is only one window to do it.  Same with the existing command abilities that happen after a unit fought for the first time and alike.

 

Please don't force even more and longer FAQs by assuming there are loopholes everywhere, there are plenty of badly written rules already so no need to push the well written ones in there too.

...Because it doesn’t limit you to “once per unit per charge”, and GW has had the “once” CA wording on LOCKDOWN lately. If it doesn’t say “once”, they actively chose it to be worded that way (theoretically). 
 

Also your argument based on “charge phase” is completely invalidated at every turn based on previous GW rules and updates. An aspect of a phase is not given some “finite window” to work within, look at IDK or Orruk spamable CAs, they all work in the same “small window” that you claim this one does. 
 

RAW is it’s spammable. Will I go out and buy 40 horseboners before the FAQ drops? Heck no. But you coming in witg some “lulz so obv quit being such a peasant” attitude is asinine. 

[Sedraxis]

6 minutes ago, Ninjon said:

...Because it doesn’t limit you to “once per unit per charge”, and GW has had the “once” CA wording on LOCKDOWN lately. If it doesn’t say “once”, they actively chose it to be worded that way (theoretically). 
 

Also your argument based on “charge phase” is completely invalidated at every turn based on previous GW rules and updates. An aspect of a phase is not given some “finite window” to work within, look at IDK or Orruk spamable CAs, they all work in the same “small window” that you claim this one does.

It's not just in the charge phase, it's limited by the fact that a unit can only finish a charge move once. Unlike for example the start of a phase, this is a limited window per unit. Same with "After a unit fights for the first time" abilities, they don't stack either.

Just because it is a command ability doesn't mean it can be spammed.

[Dolomyte]

Yeah it does not say limit once which is an issue. Harvesters are also an issue until they say within 3” of a harvester instead of this model, as you can currently park two behind a unit of 40 Mortek and they are impossible to kill.