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Ossiarch Bonereapers, hideously overpowered?


HollowHills

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I'm not sure why, but I'm not too worried about a 2+ save if it doesn't have a lot of killing power behind it. Like, Nurgle can get 40 mauraders with 2 wounds each and a 5+/5+/6+ reroll 6s to hit and wound against them (maybe even more) which isn't exactly stomping tournaments. I'm not a fan of tankiness in games (just boring to play against) but I don't think it's broken.

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14 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I'm not sure why, but I'm not too worried about a 2+ save if it doesn't have a lot of killing power behind it. Like, Nurgle can get 40 mauraders with 2 wounds each and a 5+/5+/6+ reroll 6s to hit and wound against them (maybe even more) which isn't exactly stomping tournaments. I'm not a fan of tankiness in games (just boring to play against) but I don't think it's broken.

2 attacks 3+\4+\-1\1 is pretty decent.

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1 hour ago, Enoby said:

I'm not sure why, but I'm not too worried about a 2+ save if it doesn't have a lot of killing power behind it. Like, Nurgle can get 40 mauraders with 2 wounds each and a 5+/5+/6+ reroll 6s to hit and wound against them (maybe even more) which isn't exactly stomping tournaments. I'm not a fan of tankiness in games (just boring to play against) but I don't think it's broken.

Not only that, but if you are a combat army that doesn't manipulate the ordinary combat activation, the warscrolls have to be extremely tough and killy if it still has to pose a challenge after having been beaten by FEC/Slaanesh/IJ S&B etc. in a round of combat.

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2 hours ago, Kasper said:

If it specifically says FAILED armor saves and not just "armor saves" that's great - Obviously I would have prefered no rerolls in the future, but heavy rend will make a big impact there.

The warscroll says “reroll saves for attacks that target that unit”.  The word “failed” is not present.

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3 hours ago, Enoby said:

I'm not sure why, but I'm not too worried about a 2+ save if it doesn't have a lot of killing power behind it. Like, Nurgle can get 40 mauraders with 2 wounds each and a 5+/5+/6+ reroll 6s to hit and wound against them (maybe even more) which isn't exactly stomping tournaments. I'm not a fan of tankiness in games (just boring to play against) but I don't think it's broken.

If Nurgle had a way of actually getting that reliably then yes, Nurgle would be taking over tournaments. As it is that requires hard casting a 7 spell that only comes on a 420 point character, another character using a command ability (I'm assuming you meant a 5+ armor save and a 5+ after save with another 6+ after save), a warshrine, an artifact, and the cycle of corruption being on a particular buff.

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The only thing I'm really worried about from the Bonereapers is their catapult, which seems custom-built to cheaply murder every support hero (and, later on, major hero) in the game. My foot heroes are basically guaranteed to die to a single shot from them, even with LoS (hitting on 3s in that case), and even if they are my general in CoS. A pair of them will down most monsters in a turn, which is rather nuts, considering they only cost 200 each. I suspect we'll be seeing a bunch of them on the table in the future.

 

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14 minutes ago, overtninja said:

The only thing I'm really worried about from the Bonereapers is their catapult, which seems custom-built to cheaply murder every support hero (and, later on, major hero) in the game. My foot heroes are basically guaranteed to die to a single shot from them, even with LoS (hitting on 3s in that case), and even if they are my general in CoS. A pair of them will down most monsters in a turn, which is rather nuts, considering they only cost 200 each. I suspect we'll be seeing a bunch of them on the table in the future.

 

Catapults including +1 attack buff average 11 wounds no rend less if LoS. 
 

they’re good but not insane against characters with 4+ saves who can sit in cover long strikes in hammers of sigmar seem more threatening still. 
 

also if they get tagged in combat they can’t shoot at all due to minimum range. 
 

They seem good but not OP to me. However wizards will hate them. 

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1 hour ago, overtninja said:

The only thing I'm really worried about from the Bonereapers is their catapult, which seems custom-built to cheaply murder every support hero (and, later on, major hero) in the game. My foot heroes are basically guaranteed to die to a single shot from them, even with LoS (hitting on 3s in that case), and even if they are my general in CoS. A pair of them will down most monsters in a turn, which is rather nuts, considering they only cost 200 each. I suspect we'll be seeing a bunch of them on the table in the future.

 

I also don‘t get how sniping „all them heroes LOLZ“ is good for the game and why they added such a rule that is plainly unfun. 
 

Edited by JackStreicher
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    Seems like a strong army. It's got some really solid warscrolls, but the points costs for most troops are pretty damn steep... And army wide, there are some harsh limitations. 

No cheap screens, no cheap objective sitters, no alpha bunker option (just a slow advance) and no way to get them in due to not having any allies. 

This will be a potent army for sure, but it does have some very obvious downsides to it related to the missions. 

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2 hours ago, Elmir said:


No cheap screens, no cheap objective sitters, no alpha bunker option (just a slow advance) and no way to get them in due to not having any allies. 
 

Part of this army's premise was its reliance on elite units.  They don't need a whole lot of screening, especially with their good saves, and they can be returned by the heroes. The Mortek are so good that they make up for the points. Though the no allies prevents cheaper unit, their current ones are so good that that isnt necessary. They have good shooting (Mortek Crawler), good melee (Stalkers), and good magic (any of the heroes). They also have ways to suck up wounds (Harvesters) and big Command Ability Beasts (Katakros). I'm thinking that despite the price, their synergies and powerful warscrolls will be more than enough to compensate for that.

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6 hours ago, overtninja said:

The only thing I'm really worried about from the Bonereapers is their catapult, which seems custom-built to cheaply murder every support hero (and, later on, major hero) in the game. My foot heroes are basically guaranteed to die to a single shot from them, even with LoS (hitting on 3s in that case), and even if they are my general in CoS. A pair of them will down most monsters in a turn, which is rather nuts, considering they only cost 200 each. I suspect we'll be seeing a bunch of them on the table in the future.

 

Im more concerned with the one per game attack that removes a model at 36" range..breaking coherency in large units.

 

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Yeah the catapults seems strong. 

3 attacks, 2+ to hit, 3+ to wound, 5 damage.... 

that's causing an average of 8.333 damage each shot. 
with buffs it's even more up to almost 13 damage. 
That's just from one catapult. 
so even a 4+ save character that's big enough to not get look out sir.... 2 of these things are going to worry it.... A LOT. 
And unlike warp lightning cannons or whatever they're going to be far more reliable. 
That's the damage on average. 2+ to hit and 3+ to wound is pretty consistent even without rerolls and other buffs. 

In reality you're probably hitting all 3 shots wounding twice, if one get's saved that's still a dead 5 wound hero, or 1/2 to 1/3 of a bigger hero. 
It's not completely busted but if you're an army that doesn't have some sort of answer to 36" artillery,... it's going to hurt you. 


As for Mortek guard... they aren't so much about killing things... but dislodging a large unit from an objective is going to be a nightmare. 
high save, decent attack, and if you park a harvester next to them, you get 50% of them back when they die. Which means you have to do everything you can to kill the harvester. 
So a unit of 20 that bubble wrap a harvester is going to be tough for armies without some decent ranged attacks. 

I agree the tanky/castle/turtle armies are boring, but unfortunately, competitively, they are very strong. Fyreslayers are the current kings of that game style right? I think they're about to be dethroned. Skaven can do it as well a bit with large tarpits that can be made battleshock immune. 

Edited by Inquisitorsz
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9 hours ago, overtninja said:

The only thing I'm really worried about from the Bonereapers is their catapult, which seems custom-built to cheaply murder every support hero (and, later on, major hero) in the game. My foot heroes are basically guaranteed to die to a single shot from them, even with LoS (hitting on 3s in that case), and even if they are my general in CoS. A pair of them will down most monsters in a turn, which is rather nuts, considering they only cost 200 each. I suspect we'll be seeing a bunch of them on the table in the future.

 

I know I have an order in for four of them. Then again, I also ordered five boxes of Guard, four each of all other non-hero kits, and one of each hero, so I'm a bit nuts ($1500 into this silly army already, after discounts). Point is, yeah, gimme some cata-freakin-pults!!! Woot! 😁

Edited by Sleboda
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1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

Does the rule actually allow the OB player to specify which model is removed?

Yes. It says "pick one enemy model" 

roll 2D6, add or subtract a modifier from the damage table and if that equals or beats the wounds characteristic,  kill the model. 
so if the catapult is at full health, on average, you'll kill a 4 wound model outright. 

If it's taken 3 wounds, you'll kill a 6 wound model outright (on average). 

Hypothetically, if you had some big base units, let's say something on 50mm bases like Kurnoth hunters or Stormfiends on 60mm bases, then hitting the middle guy, and killing him will wipe the half the remainder of the unit due to breaking coherency, unless you always keep them in a triangle or have all the bases touching (since 2" is 50.8mm).

You have to be really careful with a larger unit of 6 or 9 because you might lose 3 or 4 extra if the catapult can break coherency.   

There are a few other effects in AoS that can do the same. I can think of the Stardrake bite, Giant stuff them in the bag, Nagash's Hand of Dust, and Reikenor's corpse candles. But most of those are either a 50% chance, or require 1D6 to be the wounds characteristic, or only do 1 mortal wound. They're all also low range. I don't think any of those pose as much of a threat as a 36in 2d6 roll version. 

It's one use only, but as soon as you damage those catapults a bit, every squishy hero is in serious danger. 
There's no saves and no To Hit roll. Just the 2D6 roll and a flat out delete. 
 

Edited by Inquisitorsz
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Cursed Stele seems quite powerful.

This book does look reasonable in terms of overall balance but there are abilities here and there (the CS) and the flexibility of rules that make me uneasy.

In the past, such things have been the herald of War of Special Rules between designers. 

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So a 200 point model can once per game have a 50/50 chance to kill a grot hero for 70 points? I do not see how that is so incredibly good, lots of spells and other things are just as likely to do that just fine.

The base catapult shots are decent with 3 shots 2+/3+ 5 dmg, but no rend hurts a lot. The average damage against a unit of Liberators for example is 4,17, meaning you will more often than not kill 2 of these guys. Assuming you get to shoot all 5 rounds, you will on average kill 10 liberators, which costs 200 points. So basically the standard shot will at best earn home the point cost in the very last battle round.

The cauldron of torment is only good against select few armies, anything with bravery 7+ is completely immune to the shot, while it can wipe out half a stabba unit, this is more the exception than the norm. It will have no effect on basically all top tournament armies currently. 

The cursed stele is very hit and miss as well. 2d6-3 at full wounds modifier, so on average it can kill a 4 wound hero and a bit less than average the more common 5 wound hero. That is decent, but as mentioned above, is it really all that impressive with a 50/50 chance from a 200 point unit to once per game kill a typical 100ish point model?

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The other Strength of the Stele is scalpeling bannermen, musicians, etc out of a unit from across the board.

Or sniping a regular model out of a unit to break it's coherencey.  In some cases the Stele will be better for that than simply dropping the regular Crawler shot onto a unit as it bypasses armour, save++ rolls, etc. while denying the opponent the choice of which model(s) to remove.

There seems to be a fair amount of that kind of flexibility in the OBR, although it doesn't always seem to 'work'.   Some options look as if they will be the default choice (Stalkers using Precision Stance) while others give the player solid options for different enemies.

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2 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

The cursed stele is very hit and miss as well. 2d6-3 at full wounds modifier, so on average it can kill a 4 wound hero and a bit less than average the more common 5 wound hero. That is decent, but as mentioned above, is it really all that impressive with a 50/50 chance from a 200 point unit to once per game kill a typical 100ish point model?

Its goes to +3, so if you're very lucky you'll kill a maw-crusher and on average rolls a 10 wound or less hero. That said, I don't think it will be taken much in serious lists expect maybe to clear out hordes. The biggest weakness I see with Bonereapers is screening as they don't really have a cheap chaff option and their Mortek Guard will be busy sitting on objectives. The Crawler can keep up with Guard though (4inch move + 3 for Discipline point for a 7 inch move and shoot) so it might accompany them to the objective. But its base is huge  and you'll also want to be shielding some support characters/Harvesters too.

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Also don't forget the crawler can't use its main attack within 6 inches of itself whilst its crew can only hit within 1 inch. That means there's quite the bubble around it where its basically useless. So even if you are crawling it along to keep up with the main army you don't want it getting too close to the front lines or else you'll lose your main benefit of taking it. 

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