Ossiarch Bonereapers, hideously overpowered?

[whispersofblood]

43 minutes ago, Customgrot said:

 

I play Gloomspite. I have no real shooting to deal with a harvester. 

Any opponent knows this and will just make a wall around their harvester and move that mortek Death Star forward. Which has the potential to heal as each model as it’s slain.

so even if I throw my high damage glass cannons into that thing (which is always either currently sitting in an objective or going to be sitting on an objective the next turn. It’s not reachable and the screen in front of it is extremely hard to kill even with rend 2 weapons. 
 

Then they are also usually supported by arachan or Nagash who are non comparable to Skragrott magic wise. So I can’t challenge there unless it’s with endless spells for fear of my most valuable unit getting flattened by superior magic or the shooting of a crawler. 
 

Bone reapers are not slow. That discipline thing that makes them +7 movement is what separates them from Fyreslayer. I played Fryslaters this weekend also and they are similarly tanky but they are actually slow, have very limited access to magic and unbinds compared to Nagash And Arachan.  ALSO IF YOU KILL A FYRESLAYER IT ACTUALLY STAYS DEAD. 

I’m aware Gloomspite are not a competitive choice and accepted that this was always going to be a up hill battle. Part of why I enjoy them so much, people enjoy playing against them, they have very obvious weaknesses which every army could exploit. I never felt I had to apologise to any of my opponent. However all bone reaper opponents felt the need to apologise to me multiple times for their army’s rules. 

You’re right though. They aren’t invisible. But as far as my faction is concerned they are. 

 They are currently 9% of the meta with a %60 win rate; %10 higher than the following faction.  

GSG actually have a lot of OBR counters, its actually one of their worst match ups, they are extremely vulnerable to blocking with endless spells, and don't have strong objective playe. Relentless discipline is +3 mv btw.

[Forrix]

40 minutes ago, Kasper said:

It requires a bit to figure out how to deal with an army after realising you have no chance in a close combat fight.

There are also armies that can't do much except in close combat. I've been wanting to take my Maggotkin for a spin with all the new stuff they've got recently but my local meta is extremely OBR heavy and there isn't anything in Maggotkin that looks to offer real solutions for the problems OBR present.

OBR strikes me as skew faction (as in it literally skews how you build lists not necessarily that it has an overwhelming win %) that serves as a gatekeeper to keep at lot of armies out of the competitive side of things. When building a list now I absolutely must have a way of dealing large amounts of rend attacks (preferably outside of the combat phase) and/or mortal wounds. With Nagash or Arkhan in seemingly every single list these methods either can't rely on spell casting or need to be able to get through a +2 or +3 unbind. As someone who has both Cities and Tzeentch  it is completely doable (though catapults are still scary af) but a lot of other armies are going to be extremely limited in what they can bring or just outright unable to compete.

[Dead Scribe]

I'd say don't play armies that can't answer whats in your meta.  That seems frustrating AF to try to play.

[Mr Spadge]

Skim read lots of whining 😂

 

But I'll add that, from tos at the weekend, when I saw a grot boss on spider do 16 mortal wounds to my cavalry (killing them in one go) after planting 4 endless spells in front of my mortek... yeah that was a tough game. Gloomspite are more than capable against obr.

Someone mentioned maggotkin. Is the blighting battallion that gives them rend not in favour any more? Cuz they should chew through just about any obr unit. Add drones/pusgoyles to get over the line and kill support stuff and they're golden... not seeing a big issue here...

 

But I wanted to shed some light on the scenario and provide at least some insight on what peoples options are... if people want to take that on board, awesome, I hope they do well. If not, I have no time to argue back and forth endlessly for no reason so I'll let you argue amongst yourselves 👍

[Customgrot]

1 hour ago, whispersofblood said:

GSG actually have a lot of OBR counters, its actually one of their worst match ups, they are extremely vulnerable to blocking with endless spells, and don't have strong objective playe. Relentless discipline is +3 mv btw.

But you have a solid +2 to your disspell with Arkan and I have +1, +2 conditionally under the moon from turn 2 only. so y0u have a better chance throughout the game of dispelling my endless spells before they are even on the board than I have of casting them. Your magic is better than mine so maybe I could zone you out for a turn if I was ballsy enough to put my casters that far up the board AND was lucky enough to roll higher than your dice. Which throughout the game is less than a 50% chance. 

 

Obviously that’s depends on if you take arachan Nagash or not. 

 

oh yes, +3 making them a 7; which is faster than most battle lines. Then they could run or charge. So if your wanting to push me off those hard to reach objectives in the middle of the board you start off usually 12 away, -7 and all of a suddenly your only needing a 5ish charge. 
 

agreed OBR struggle if there is more than 3 objectives to hold. However their often aren’t. Otherwise they just slowly march up sit on whatever it is and don’t die and kill literally everything. 
 

You must admit the Mortek  guard are under costed?  A unit of 20 stabs is the same cost as 10 mortek. . 

 

Honestly I’m usually happy to lose. I play Gloomspite non optimally I’m used to losing. But I personally don’t enjoy losing to bonereapers so I’m not playing them. 

[Forrix]

32 minutes ago, Mr Spadge said:

Someone mentioned maggotkin. Is the blighting battallion that gives them rend not in favour any more? Cuz they should chew through just about any obr unit. Add drones/pusgoyles to get over the line and kill support stuff and they're golden... not seeing a big issue here...

The problem is the damage still isn't there. Blight cyst Blightkings are doing 5 wounds on average against Mortek Guard with their shield reroll discounting death saves and possible Harvester saves (math might be off a bit, just gave a unit of 10, 48 attacks to try and account for exploding 6s). If there is a Harvester your pretty much relying on your opponent failing to screen it or trying to kill it with spells that hard cast on 7 (+1 if your a GUO with a dagger!) against the OBR player's likely +2 or 3 unbinds. If you can't kill the Harvester then you're just screwed depending on the battleplan. Though most players I know don't actually take the Harvester since its kind of a "win more thing".

Drones aren't killing anything with substantial support that probably isn't going to be able to keep up with them and even then their only rend attack is hitting on 4s with 1 attack base on a model with a 50ish mm base. Pusgoyles just aren't killing anything.

You're also going to be lacking in bodies severely unless you packing a bunch of Plaguebearers but then those guys REALLY aren't killing anything and will still get cut to pieces to in melee.

Wrath of the Everchosen added a bunch of nice stuff to Nurgle but non of it fundamentally alters the equation. You playing an melee attrition army against another melee attrition army that has better melee damage, spell casting, unbinding,  shooting, model recursion, and damage reduction. And roughly the same when it comes to model count and mobility (apples to oranges there but I'd say it even outs). 

You could load up on STD and Clan Pestilins stuff but then you'll run into the question of why not just play STD or Skaventide.  

[whispersofblood]

2 hours ago, Customgrot said:

But you have a solid +2 to your disspell with Arkan and I have +1, +2 conditionally under the moon from turn 2 only. so y0u have a better chance throughout the game of dispelling my endless spells before they are even on the board than I have of casting them. Your magic is better than mine so maybe I could zone you out for a turn if I was ballsy enough to put my casters that far up the board AND was lucky enough to roll higher than your dice. Which throughout the game is less than a 50% chance. 

 

Obviously that’s depends on if you take arachan Nagash or not. 

 

oh yes, +3 making them a 7; which is faster than most battle lines. Then they could run or charge. So if your wanting to push me off those hard to reach objectives in the middle of the board you start off usually 12 away, -7 and all of a suddenly your only needing a 5ish charge. 
 

agreed OBR struggle if there is more than 3 objectives to hold. However their often aren’t. Otherwise they just slowly march up sit on whatever it is and don’t die and kill literally everything. 
 

You must admit the Mortek  guard are under costed?  A unit of 20 stabs is the same cost as 10 mortek. . 

 

Honestly I’m usually happy to lose. I play Gloomspite non optimally I’m used to losing. But I personally don’t enjoy losing to bonereapers so I’m not playing them. 

Well yeah, Any death army with our without Nagash are very different beasts. So lets talk about w/o Nagash since as far as I can tell most don't have him. The thing about endless spells is you can only ever dispel one in your phase. So you want to plan to incrementally overwhelm the OBR player's ability to manage. I quite like the gobbapaloza, and several other casters, and I like scuttletide, since it also gives you +1 to cast.

But in reality, GSG don't kill models, you basically are designed to frustrate your opponent from playing the game. So if you don't fallow your optimum philosophy everything else leaves room in your game to be exploited to beat by,

Honestly, I don't think Mortek guard are that good. They are excellent as a 10 man unit, because I would have to spend probably 300 points to remove them in a turn, and even then its not certain. But one you start maxing out, and taking support pieces that efficiency starts dropping and it make more sense for me to spend more points to remove them, and it removes the OBR player's model count to play the game. The key is taking enough but not too many, 

Edited February 12, 2020 by whispersofblood

[Customgrot]

Awww I didn’t know it was only the 1 spell you could dispel.  That does change things. A fungoid and Skragrott could well cast out up to 4 endless spells. Gravetide, gnashing jaws, scuttletide, palisade and pendulum are all rather Cheap spells with large bases. I imagine you’d be basing your army around it though. 
 

defiantly a way of playing GG I hadn’t considered before. 

[whispersofblood]

1 minute ago, Customgrot said:

Awww I didn’t know it was only the 1 spell you could dispel.  That does change things. A fungoid and Skragrott could well cast out up to 4 endless spells. Gravetide, gnashing jaws, scuttletide, palisade and pendulum are all rather Cheap spells with large bases. I imagine you’d be basing your army around it though. 
 

defiantly a way of playing GG I hadn’t considered before. 

Sorry. Just to be clear here.

You can unbind any number of Endless spells cast in the opponent hero phase. But a Wizard can only dispel one endless spell in your turn. Similarly a wizard can only cast one Endless spell per turn.

So even Nagash can only dispel one Endless spell at the start of the hero phase in his turn.