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Ossiarch Bonereapers, hideously overpowered?


HollowHills

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58 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

One of the interesting affects of having so many factions is that sometimes people's armies are just good at certain operational schemes accidentally

It's so interesting when a game is decided at scenario selection. You dont even have to waste time trying to play it!

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59 minutes ago, Forrix said:

Gotta say I hate this to the point I'm thinking of quitting.  Maneuvering doesnt matter when their 130 point battle line beats your 400 point tricked out killing machine let alone any chaff or objective runners.

But that's not what happened.

 

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1 hour ago, Forrix said:

Gotta say I hate this to the point I'm thinking of quitting.  Maneuvering doesnt matter when their 130 point battle line beats your 400 point tricked out killing machine let alone any chaff or objective runners.

But they don't. You likely lost because you misplayed, your opponent had the winning strategy and the dicerolls weren't in your favor.

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41 minutes ago, Sedraxis said:

But they don't.

Editing since you expanded your statement. In any game dice rolls play a big part and I'm sure I could have made some better choices. I'm also sure my opponent wasn't an world class tournament player and a 10 man 3+ rerolling, 6++ unit battleshock immune unit that can regain 3 models a turn and get pumped up to high damage dealing levels easily is well above average at guarding backfield objectives. 

Edited by Forrix
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1 hour ago, Forrix said:

It's so interesting when a game is decided at scenario selection. You dont even have to waste time trying to play it!

That's not really an accurate depiction though is it?

In casual play you tailor to your opponent, and in my experience from my own life and as a red shirt. Casual play is about the race in experience and translating that experience into choosing the right units to buy in the model arms race. So I would say in casual gaming the opponent that learns the fastest usually quickly dominates in their group. So much so that can end up with completely mediocre factions dominating inside play groups. Groups usually die when the players stop learning how to play the game and try to learn how to beat that guy. Which is obviously doomed to failure. 

In tournament play if you aren't going to properly address your own structural weaknesses and respect that each faction presents a DIFFERENT problem for every match up in every scenerio then your aren't playing competitively really. The competitive mindset is about the process not the result. Which is why I didn't and still don't think HoS are a problem, the reasons they dominated were mostly meta-selection reasons not technical reasons like say DoK, or Grimghast spam.

While OB durability might feel different, as in a "negative play experience" then say extreme msu builds, the objective is the same deny your opponent the freedom of the board. 

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1 minute ago, whispersofblood said:

That's not really an accurate depiction though is it?

In casual play you tailor to your opponent, and in my experience from my own life and as a red shirt. Casual play is about the race in experience and translating that experience into choosing the right units to buy in the model arms race. So I would say in casual gaming the opponent that learns the fastest usually quickly dominates in their group. So much so that can end up with completely mediocre factions dominating inside play groups. Groups usually die when the players stop learning how to play the game and try to learn how to beat that guy. Which is obviously doomed to failure. 

In tournament play if you aren't going to properly address your own structural weaknesses and respect that each faction presents a DIFFERENT problem for every match up in every scenerio then your aren't playing competitively really. The competitive mindset is about the process not the result. Which is why I didn't and still don't think HoS are a problem, the reasons they dominated were mostly meta-selection reasons not technical reasons like say DoK, or Grimghast spam.

While OB durability might feel different, as in a "negative play experience" then say extreme msu builds, the objective is the same deny your opponent the freedom of the board. 

I mean, if your okay with 1/2 to 3/4 of battletomes being unplayable then I suppose it's okay. A good part of the reason HoS is so good is a decent chunk of battletomes just dont have the tools available to solve the problem they represent and people dont want to jump ship due to aesthetic/gameplay/hobbying/money reasons.

Negative play experiences are inherently subjective so that's just me. With MSU builds you at least have the option to remove them from an objective and they get weaker in the scenarios with only 2 to 3 objectives. 

Most local tournament players I know like to pick a faction based mostly on aesthetics and lore with some focus on the gameplay. They then see what they can accomplish with that faction. They dont expect to go 5-0 in a GT but they want to feel like they have a shot in most of the games they play. When players get curb stomped in 90% of the games they play seemingly regardless of army build or tactics they either quit or change armies. In AoS 2.0 our local scene has had all our Kharadron Overlord or Nighthaunt players either quit the game or switch armies. Bonereapers have been super popular and I'm expecting them to drive out the melee armies from our tournament scene. The casual scene might be different as our Bonereaper players share the opinion that the book is crazy overpowered and of course, want people to actually want to play against them. So I think there will be less Petrifix Elite/Harvester/Mortek Guard spam in the future.

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The HoS point is just not true though and that's my point. Most of the things people consider op are strategic problems, they have developed because most people don't play the game, they just unpack their selected layers of rules and abide by the results. 

You don't deal with strategic problems by changing unit A for slightly more effecient Unit B.

Strategic problems mostly have to be dealt with tactically in the moment. Which means at a tournament you need the tools in your list to then use when you need them. What exactly those tools will be is determined by the faction at the operational stage. 

Let's take Big Waagh for example. The problem isn't killing models, killing models is just one method of getting to objectives the most straight forward. The problem is getting where the OB player is stopping you from going with his models. Big Waagh don't have alternative deployment or really very much fly. But they do have high quality casters which unlocks Bridge and Purple Sun. The key is finding the thing that least negatively impacts your high level strategy.

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3 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

The HoS point is just not true though and that's my point. Most of the things people consider op are strategic problems, they have developed because most people don't play the game, they just unpack their selected layers of rules and abide by the results. 

You don't deal with strategic problems by changing unit A for slightly more effecient Unit B.

Strategic problems mostly have to be dealt with tactically in the moment. Which means at a tournament you need the tools in your list to then use when you need them. What exactly those tools will be is determined by the faction at the operational stage. 

Let's take Big Waagh for example. The problem isn't killing models, killing models is just one method of getting to objectives the most straight forward. The problem is getting where the OB player is stopping you from going with his models. Big Waagh don't have alternative deployment or really very much fly. But they do have high quality casters which unlocks Bridge and Purple Sun. The key is finding the thing that least negatively impacts your high level strategy.

So the reason HoS are so dominant internationally at high levels after a good 6 months of people being able to adapt to them is that all these tournament players are bad at the game? 

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1 minute ago, Forrix said:

So the reason HoS are so dominant internationally at high levels after a good 6 months of people being able to adapt to them is that all these tournament players are bad at the game? 

No I've stated previously that they were dominant in a lot of ways that other armies weren't at the time. And, that the way that the next several books are pretty good at. Mostly at how dominant a speced KoS could be over about a 26" radius. Orruks, CoS, OB all deal with it differently but they all address that. And, without that dominance the primary driver of depravity in the HoS army is effectively neutered. 

The Keeper gave the HoS army a lot of freedom to get around the board and forced the opponent into a shell, and in match ups that a Keeper wasn't dominant such as against Fyreslayers, the sheer difference in speed between the armies was so severe it was irrelevant.

The limits of HoS are really going to be exposed if these factions take up a larger meta percentage as they really aren't that good in any of the phases besides movement. 

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On 11/23/2019 at 11:48 PM, NinthMusketeer said:

Is the army overpowered? At the end of the day yes, because while it might not be depending on build the way it will generally be used will result in an overpowered army.

This boils down mostly to two things: the petrifax elite subfaction, and the functionality of the gothizzar harvester's ability. The former is straight-forward OP, granting the whole army +1 to saves, access to an excellent command ability and trait, for the 'cost' of a merely good artifact. The harvester is an issue because unlike all other resurrection mechanics in the game it happens immediately. This means that the common counter-play of wiping a unit out before slain models can be returned to it is eliminated as an option. It becomes a list check; can the opponent bring means to snipe a 10-wound, 4+ save, healing monster? If not, they have no answer to it beyond hoping the ossiarch player screws up.

However, outside those two things the problem elements are few and relatively mild, so an errata could theoretically deal with the army's main imbalances.

A larger issue is of how many elements of the Ossiarch army are designed such that they are unfun to play against. Stuff like that is extremely unhealthy for the game, as it both erodes the current player base and poisons the opinions of potential recruits, should it be encountered.

On spot.

Undying units and killing your infantry heroes at range with a single unsaved wound. - S-O mUcH fUn! 👏🏼
I am painting mine up and then they go on eBay ^^

(Slaves to Darkness DOn‘t you dare to disappoint me!)

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48 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

On spot.

Undying units and killing your infantry heroes at range with a single unsaved wound. - S-O mUcH fUn! 👏🏼
I am painting mine up and then they go on eBay ^^

(Slaves to Darkness DOn‘t you dare to disappoint me!)

Yep the thing I don't like the most about OBR is the harvester. Most armies won't have the means to snipe it thorough a Mortek Guard bubble.   

On one hand every army should have some way to snipe heroes because of how important they are in AoS. And you could use that to kill the harvester.... but a lot of armies don't have that. MW spells can often be short range, and endless spells don't help much because they can't move close enough to bubble wrapped models.  Quite a few armies don't have any significant shooting at all.  

The other thing is the +1 save. While that's not terrible on it's own, I fear that it's going to lead to even more MW spam in the future (as people adjust lists and as the next power creep battletome comes out). I don't think that's going to be good for the game long term.  
Mortek Guard, especially with a harvester backup and the +1 save simply seem too efficient. But making them 150 or 180 pts might not be enough and you risk making them too expensive.  

The final problem is unit spam. This is prevalent in quite a few armies. On one hand it's cool to make a whole army out of stalkers or kurnoth hunters or some other elite unit. On the other hand, making a whole army out of the strongest and most point efficient killing machines in your battletome is just boring min/maxing. Spamming casters in hallowheart or catapults in OBR just leads to negative play experiences in my opinion.   

There's no easy fix for that though.  
Only thing I can think of is a composition based point system. Eg, first catapult is 200, second one is 220, third one is 260 etc... So you pay a tax if you want to spam something.  
Often in this game 1 single unit is never completely broken. But it becomes a problem when you can fill 1600pts of your army with that one strong unit, without any downsides. 

 

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3 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

On spot.

Undying units and killing your infantry heroes at range with a single unsaved wound. - S-O mUcH fUn! 👏🏼
I am painting mine up and then they go on eBay ^^

(Slaves to Darkness DOn‘t you dare to disappoint me!)

 

3 hours ago, Inquisitorsz said:

Yep the thing I don't like the most about OBR is the harvester. Most armies won't have the means to snipe it thorough a Mortek Guard bubble.   

On one hand every army should have some way to snipe heroes because of how important they are in AoS. And you could use that to kill the harvester.... but a lot of armies don't have that. MW spells can often be short range, and endless spells don't help much because they can't move close enough to bubble wrapped models.  Quite a few armies don't have any significant shooting at all.  

The other thing is the +1 save. While that's not terrible on it's own, I fear that it's going to lead to even more MW spam in the future (as people adjust lists and as the next power creep battletome comes out). I don't think that's going to be good for the game long term.  
Mortek Guard, especially with a harvester backup and the +1 save simply seem too efficient. But making them 150 or 180 pts might not be enough and you risk making them too expensive.  

The final problem is unit spam. This is prevalent in quite a few armies. On one hand it's cool to make a whole army out of stalkers or kurnoth hunters or some other elite unit. On the other hand, making a whole army out of the strongest and most point efficient killing machines in your battletome is just boring min/maxing. Spamming casters in hallowheart or catapults in OBR just leads to negative play experiences in my opinion.   

There's no easy fix for that though.  
Only thing I can think of is a composition based point system. Eg, first catapult is 200, second one is 220, third one is 260 etc... So you pay a tax if you want to spam something.  
Often in this game 1 single unit is never completely broken. But it becomes a problem when you can fill 1600pts of your army with that one strong unit, without any downsides. 

 

Show me this magical list that does all those things please, because I don't see it.

All I see are people complaining about ghost stories so far. Try building an actual list with them, it's the cure to many AoS fears in my experience.

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44 minutes ago, Sedraxis said:

 

Show me this magical list that does all those things please, because I don't see it.

All I see are people complaining about ghost stories so far. Try building an actual list with them, it's the cure to many AoS fears in my experience.

Show you what list? 
One that does what? Spams good units? Or one that has a 20-40 man Mortek Guard unit that bubble wraps a Harvester and sits on an objective? 

For the former, there's plenty of armies that can spam strong units, like:
15 bow kurnoth hunters. Or 15 skyfires. Or some equivalent number of Eels? Or 3 Keepers of secrets? or 4 Mortek Crawlers? 

The latter is a nothing overly special and probably in almost every OBR list. 

I never mentioned any specific boogie man list. I'm talking about spamming specific units in general and how some armies can find it very difficult to deal with bubble wrapped single models. Especially if that model is a 10 wound 4+ save thing that can be healed. That's different to sniping a 5 wound wizard with a 5+ save. 

As for OBR in general... it's too early to tell since they're only just starting to pop up in tournaments now. 
But KRIGSLUNTAN GT this past weekend had 92 players and one OBR player finished 2nd being one of only 3 undefeated lists. The others being Slaanesh (winner) and Khorne. 
The OBR player won against 4th, 9th and 11th (which was DoK, Skaven, DoT)  so it's not like he had an easy run either.  All 3 of those were 4-1 players. 

BTW his list was 
Petrifax Elite (+1 save) 
Katakros 
Soulmason 
40 Mortek Guard
20 Mortek Guard
20 Mortek Guard
2 x Mortek Crawlers

So.... yay, he didn't have harvesters... but still had 80 infantry with 3+ saves and 2 catapults. 
I wouldn't say it's the most interesting list. 


 

Edited by Inquisitorsz
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10 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

Show you what list? 
One that does what? Spams good units? Or one that has a 20-40 man Mortek Guard unit that bubble wraps a Harvester and sits on an objective? 

For the former, there's plenty of armies that can spam strong units, like:
15 bow kurnoth hunters. Or 15 skyfires. Or some equivalent number of Eels? Or 3 Keepers of secrets? or 4 Mortek Crawlers? 

The latter is a nothing overly special and probably in almost every OBR list. 

I never mentioned any specific boogie man list. I'm talking about spamming specific units in general and how some armies can find it very difficult to deal with bubble wrapped single models. Especially if that model is a 10 wound 4+ save thing that can be healed. That's different to sniping a 5 wound wizard with a 5+ save. 

Do you ever play with objectives or against people with good movement options? Again, review those rules and try to build an actual list with those 4 crawlers and see what happens.

There have been plenty of spammable problematic units in the past, keepers being the most recent. Those units are spammed because they lack a clear counter-strategy or weakness. Crawlers aren't one of those units.

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4 minutes ago, Sedraxis said:

Do you ever play with objectives or against people with good movement options? Again, review those rules and try to build an actual list with those 4 crawlers and see what happens.

There have been plenty of spammable problematic units in the past, keepers being the most recent. Those units are spammed because they lack a clear counter-strategy or weakness. Crawlers aren't one of those units.

I'm not just saying they're broken. I'm saying they're a negative play experience. Mortek Guard are cheap enough that you can still have a good core of an army and be able to spam catapults (See edit above regarding KRIGSLUNTAN GT). 
4 Stormcast Ballista is also an annoying list right? Even if it's not winning tournaments, it's super annoying to play against and no one likes having their heroes or cool big units shot off the board before you can even roll a single dice. 
Much the same as 12+ Skaven Jezzails or something like that. 

Objectives only matter when you don't get shot or magic'd off the board by turn 2.... or when the opponent doesn't have 40-80 battleshock immune troops to swarm objectives as well as the ability to do all of the above. 

Time will tell. I'm not here to argue. If it's a problem it will get a tweak eventually or some other power creep will happen and the cycle continues. 
We're just talking about what is and isn't fun and balanced. It's not hard to look at some of these OBR units, compare them to other things with similar roles and points values and see that they are above the curve for the most part. 

you're focusing on the wrong parts of my comments. 1 crawler is fine, 3+ crawlers is NPE. Mortek Guard and Harvesters are a far bigger problem in terms of overall balance than crawlers are. 

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2 hours ago, Sedraxis said:

 

Show me this magical list that does all those things please, because I don't see it.

All I see are people complaining about ghost stories so far. Try building an actual list with them, it's the cure to many AoS fears in my experience.

I did not say it is OP I said it is utterly fun destroying.

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9 hours ago, Forrix said:

Editing since you expanded your statement. In any game dice rolls play a big part and I'm sure I could have made some better choices. I'm also sure my opponent wasn't an world class tournament player and a 10 man 3+ rerolling, 6++ unit battleshock immune unit that can regain 3 models a turn and get pumped up to high damage dealing levels easily is well above average at guarding backfield objectives. 

Except that at this point you aren't fighting a 130p unit with your 400p unit anymore. You are fighting a 130p unit that gets supported by other units that combined cost a lot more than 400p.

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2 hours ago, Inquisitorsz said:

[...]
BTW his list was 
Petrifax Elite (+1 save) 
Katakros 
Soulmason 
40 Mortek Guard
20 Mortek Guard
20 Mortek Guard
2 x Mortek Crawlers
[...]

I (FEC) played against a similar list yesterday. Unfortunately I did not specify that I was going for a more "friendly" list, since this was my first time with the FEC. At the end of the day he wiped 3 squads of Crypt Horrors + Haunter Courtier just with 20 of his MG and Immortis. And had my whole army destroyed by the end of round 4. 

I made a huge mistake right in the beginning so I gues calling the OB OP would not be fair from my point of view, however as many have already pointed out theres something that doesn't feel right about the Mortek Guard. Albeit having only one wound these guys are hard as nails (PE) and hit like trucks. Plus I don't like the way their buffing/commandpoints work.

... guess I need some time to figure out how to play against them. Probably a more Flayer-heavy list due to the rend and mortal wounds. Right now MW seem to be the PEs only "real" weakness. Even rend -1 isn't that great against them. 

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I've played against almost nothing but OB since their release. Big takeaways.

They hate quality shooting. Soulscream Bridge Cities shooting package has done very well.

They don't hold up well against mortal spam.

Fight at start of combat phase is worth it's weight in gold. If you can engage/negate the catapults Fanatics can decimate almost all their best options.

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4 hours ago, Inquisitorsz said:

(...)
As for OBR in general... it's too early to tell since they're only just starting to pop up in tournaments now. 
But KRIGSLUNTAN GT this past weekend had 92 players and one OBR player finished 2nd being one of only 3 undefeated lists. The others being Slaanesh (winner) and Khorne. 
The OBR player won against 4th, 9th and 11th (which was DoK, Skaven, DoT)  so it's not like he had an easy run either.  All 3 of those were 4-1 players. 

BTW his list was 
Petrifax Elite (+1 save) 
Katakros 
Soulmason 
40 Mortek Guard
20 Mortek Guard
20 Mortek Guard
2 x Mortek Crawlers

So.... yay, he didn't have harvesters... but still had 80 infantry with 3+ saves and 2 catapults. 
I wouldn't say it's the most interesting list. 


 

I think it's really important to give some context to this list though. He didn't just win because he used lots of guard and 2 crawlers. Out of all the lists, this was the only one that went higher than 3-2, despite many of the lists using Mortek Crawlers (I think 5 of the 9 had 2 Mortek crawlers included) and many lists using more than 60 guard (two lists using 60 guard also had 1 harvester). There was even a Nagash list with just him, Liege Kavalos and 70 guard. 

The most important factor in seeing this list place 2nd? Well, if you take this guy's opinion from this video: https://youtu.be/mKJQN9_Cp5E?t=6744,  Adam is one of the best players in Sweden, so is it really that surprising to see him place 2nd and 5-0?  I would argue that his personal skill is what gave him that 5-0, wouldn't you agree? Seeing as if we take Adam out of the equation, how did OBR fare, despite seeing lots of Mortek guard and crawlers? I get you are trying to show that you think guard and crawler "spam" is strong, which I am sure it is, but highlighting one winners list and going "look, see!" without all the context behind it feels a little disingenuous. Lots of other armies took a load of guard and crawlers and fared perfectly average at 3-2. One went 3-1 (The Nagash & 70 Guard list specifically) and I am not sure what that means. Perhaps they had to leave and didn't play the final match? Not sure and could have been a 4-1 result. The one Cremitoriam list that was there also went 3-2. This is of course one tournament and not indicative of how strong the army is as a whole. But at basically 10% representation of this whole tournament, it does give a fairly clear indication nonetheless. 

Lastly, what do you mean by "interesting list"? This feels really strange to read. Like you want to see more variety of units ? Most competitive lists are not interesting if that is what you mean. Shootcast lists look so boring in my view that despite them being the best way to "win", I just can't bring myself to expand my SCE in that direction. As you obviously know, in a tournament setting efficiency > interesting every time. This is doubly so in OBR with the high point cost of the units in this army basically having larger effects than other factions. 

Edited by Heijoshin
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1 hour ago, SevenXes said:

however as many have already pointed out theres something that doesn't feel right about the Mortek Guard. Albeit having only one wound these guys are hard as nails (PE) and hit like trucks.

GW stole the Shieldwall rules of the pre-CoS Ironbreakers, made it better (reroll all saves not only failed ones) and made it unconditional (Ironbreakers weren‘t allowed to move or charge in order to use it), then they slapped Petrifex on top of it. Ironbreakers were nigh unkillable if they didn‘t move and they only had a 4+ save while lacking dmg output. I had 20 tank 30 Ungors and 6 Bullgors an entire game xD.

 

Imo they should change some rules just for the fun factor, not due to power or anything:

Mortek: Shieldwall only if they didn‘t move. Any way really so the opponent can actually try to outplay them. Exploding 6s only if they charged or have been in combat the previous turn (this way they‘re not a no-brain „I get all the buffs all the time“ push forward unit.

Petrifex: A Second  6++ deathless minions but losing the +1 save 

Crawler: 8 shots, 3+, 3+, -1, 2dmg

 

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10 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

That's not really an accurate depiction though is it?

In casual play you tailor to your opponent, and in my experience from my own life and as a red shirt. Casual play is about the race in experience and translating that experience into choosing the right units to buy in the model arms race. So I would say in casual gaming the opponent that learns the fastest usually quickly dominates in their group. So much so that can end up with completely mediocre factions dominating inside play groups. Groups usually die when the players stop learning how to play the game and try to learn how to beat that guy. Which is obviously doomed to failure. 

This view and description  of casual player is really based on GW shops,  almost all casual players I know will never enter a GW, because of this type of player (lots of new grey plastic and many are just talking about strength and not how beautiful the models are).

Many Casual players buy models based on aesthetic, not strength and want to field a variety of units. If they always loose based on bad Play experience  (the KoS is not fun to play against!) and not because the game was tight, they will quit and play sth else. It is not always tactics, it is often different strength of armies. Sure you can buy a stronger one or Spam 1-2 strong units, but for many players this is not the way to go.

If you are saying the game is healthy and the strong armies are on spot and everybody just has to adapt, you are losing a lot of players, don’t know if this is worth it. Tournament play is maybe fine, but this is really just a small part of the overall community. Perhaps sometimes it is good to listen to more casual players, otherwise people with access to a variety of tabletops will leave (difficult to happen, if you just play in a GW Shop 😉 ).

 

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58 minutes ago, Johann said:

This view and description  of casual player is really based on GW shops,  almost all casual players I know will never enter a GW, because of this type of player (lots of new grey plastic and many are just talking about strength and not how beautiful the models are).

Many Casual players buy models based on aesthetic, not strength and want to field a variety of units. If they always loose based on bad Play experience  (the KoS is not fun to play against!) and not because the game was tight, they will quit and play sth else. It is not always tactics, it is often different strength of armies. Sure you can buy a stronger one or Spam 1-2 strong units, but for many players this is not the way to go.

If you are saying the game is healthy and the strong armies are on spot and everybody just has to adapt, you are losing a lot of players, don’t know if this is worth it. Tournament play is maybe fine, but this is really just a small part of the overall community. Perhaps sometimes it is good to listen to more casual players, otherwise people with access to a variety of tabletops will leave (difficult to happen, if you just play in a GW Shop 😉 ).

 

I agree to some extent well to start I haven't played in a GW in some time probably something like a decade, and if you have been around AoS since the start its probably the perfect test case for the problem of OP armies. I've seen casual players complain about the OP nature of Nurgle Maggotkin, the problem is like in most things  the better person is just better, and without long form assistance the attrition rate of the less talented member is going to be high regardless of the balance between factions. Because, of how direct and stark the discrepency in results will show themself as. There generally aren't that many oppressively powerful factions at any given time. So the odds that casual basement players are going to accidentally on esthetics alone pick factions with huge power descrepencies is I feel overstated.

I would even go on to say that some of the most powerful armies are actually quite difficult to understand why and how they are very good and result in poor performances.  Personally I think the game could literallty be better written, but I think think the game is quite healthy taken as a whole. My only issue with LLV and THW stats is the snap shot nature of the stats and the persistance of the feelings they create at this point. There is no way anyone can say that adding 6 new factions between the summer and Christmas and the rumour is 3 or 4 more by spring does not represent a completely different game to the one HoS dominated over the summer. Like measuring the perfomance of stocks, passed performance is not an indictor of future performance, merely a measure of what has happened.

Anyway to make this about OB, I think they are very strong from the high level strategic position, but less strong on the in game tactical perspective. IF you can successfully interupt an OB army from implementing their strategy or bypass their strategy I don't think the builds people are talking about in this thread will be that good from a results perspective. That too me actually seems pretty fluffy for the faction. For me they mirror Bonesplitters and Big Waagh well, who are a mess strategically, but a cunning player will include enough tools that on the game board they can manufator tactical solutions to strategic problems.

Edited by whispersofblood
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