Ossiarch Bonereapers, hideously overpowered?

[Kaleb Daark]

So reading all this and seeing the models and their fluff one thing is apparent.

 

nagash is not only lord of undeath but lord of the hobby, after all he’s done what all of us would love to do and make an entire cool looking army just using the contents of your bits box.

kitbash Nagash.😎

[MKsmash]

I recently fought Petrifex Elite at 100 points with my Mawtribes. I don't think either of our lists were great, plus it was the Ossiarch's first time playing them, but he won handily. 

The Petrifex are impossible to hurt with normal wounds unless you have rend -2 and higher all over the place. However, they quickly collapse against mortal wounds because of their low model count. So if you think you'll be facing Petrifex soon, better bring Khorne!

[Duke of Gisoreux]

On 10/30/2019 at 11:34 AM, Scurvydog said:

The cursed stele is very hit and miss as well. 2d6-3 at full wounds modifier, so on average it can kill a 4 wound hero and a bit less than average the more common 5 wound hero. That is decent, but as mentioned above, is it really all that impressive with a 50/50 chance from a 200 point unit to once per game kill a typical 100ish point model?

Think of the following: You play against DoK and your opponent has the 6 wound model Morathi, High Oracle of Khaine. You have the first turn and Morathi is in range of your Mortek Crawler. You use the Cursed Stele attack and have a 28% chance to instantly kill her as the Iron Heart of Khaine rule doesn't protect her from being slain.

[InSaint]

5 hours ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:

Think of the following: You play against DoK and your opponent has the 6 wound model Morathi, High Oracle of Khaine. You have the first turn and Morathi is in range of your Mortek Crawler. You use the Cursed Stele attack and have a 28% chance to instantly kill her as the Iron Heart of Khaine rule doesn't protect her from being slain.

Not too sure how many drops an OB meta will have but a typical DoK meta army with Morathi will only have 4 drops. 

This means DoK players may still be able to seize the initiative and bankai Morathi to make her 12 wounds. 

[Sleboda]

3 hours ago, InSaint said:

Not too sure how many drops an OB meta will have but a typical DoK meta army with Morathi will only have 4 drops. 

As much as I do cringe at seeing a prefix used as a word on its own (meta), I felt compelled to applaud you for being one of the few who accurately abbreviate Ossiarch Bonereapers as OB as opposed to OBR. Thank you.

[Panzer]

9 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

As much as I do cringe at seeing a prefix used as a word on its own (meta), I felt compelled to applaud you for being one of the few who accurately abbreviate Ossiarch Bonereapers as OB as opposed to OBR. Thank you.

Bonereaper is a compound word of bone and reaper, so OBR is technically not wrong either.

[smartazjb0y]

2 hours ago, Panzer said:

Bonereaper is a compound word of bone and reaper, so OBR is technically not wrong either.

Yep haha, same with SCE for Stormcast. Sometimes you just gotta use 3 letters instead of just the 2

[JackStreicher]

Quite honestly: All instant slay abilities should just be removed from the game and granting it to a 200 pts model is just stupidly too strong.

if your enemy gets lucky he/she can oneshot a frakin‘ dragon. Who the Frakk thought that was funny OR a good idea?

„Ha I just killed your Vampire Lord on Zombiedragon!“ - SUCH FUN, INCREDIBLE! Almost as much fun as getting all your valuable models removed by hand of dust - what an utter design masterpiece, could it be that they slapped that on a model that costs 65€ on purpose? GW? Nah never.

Edited November 13, 2019 by JackStreicher

[Indecisive]

Eh, it's  a really potent ability and should be fittingly rare. If anyone should have a chance to yeet a dragon out of existence it should be the 900 point god of death.

 

[Inquisitorsz]

3 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Quite honestly: All instant slay abilities should just be removed from the game and granting it to a 200 pts model is just stupidly too strong.

if your enemy gets lucky he/she can oneshot a frakin‘ dragon. Who the Frakk thought that was funny OR a good idea?

„Ha I just killed your Vampire Lord on Zombiedragon!“ - SUCH FUN, INCREDIBLE! Almost as much fun as getting all your valuable models removed by hand of dust - what an utter design masterpiece, could it be that they slapped that on a model that costs 65€ on purpose? GW? Nah never.

Doesn't really work with this catapult... there's a -3 modifier when it's not wounded and you have to roll greater than the wounds characteristic. So things the size of dragons are completely safe until the catapult is almost dead, in which case you'd still need to roll 11 or 12 to kill a 14 wound monster. 

It's more of a problem against smaller heroes. But so is a unit of archers. 200 pts of shadow warriors or sisters of the watch or whatever will be much more painful for smaller heroes than this once per game catapult shot.

Back in the day we had a magic miscast table. You haven't played Warhammer till you've had you 500pts great unclean one miscast and cease to exist the first time he attempts to cast a spell.  

All the other instant kill abilities in AOS are limited to lower wound targets, can be stopped (eg unbound spells) and usually have very short ranges so can be avoided to an extent. 
The catapult is unique in that it can do this a 36" range. But personally, I'd be using it on an expensive elite infantry unit to break coherency and kill half the unit, rather than targeting characters.   

At the end of the day, as with most things in AOS. One catapult is meh.... spamming 4+ of them get's stupid. 

[Panzer]

4 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Quite honestly: All instant slay abilities should just be removed from the game and granting it to a 200 pts model is just stupidly too strong.

if your enemy gets lucky he/she can oneshot a frakin‘ dragon. Who the Frakk thought that was funny OR a good idea?

„Ha I just killed your Vampire Lord on Zombiedragon!“ - SUCH FUN, INCREDIBLE! Almost as much fun as getting all your valuable models removed by hand of dust - what an utter design masterpiece, could it be that they slapped that on a model that costs 65€ on purpose? GW? Nah never.

To be honest, just like Mortal wounds on way too many things and rules and stuff that let people ignore anything to do with Bravery.

GW has a talent for circumventing their own mechanics and adding "gotcha!" kind of rules.

[JackStreicher]

6 hours ago, Inquisitorsz said:

At the end of the day, as with most things in AOS. One catapult is meh.... spamming 4+ of them get's stupid. 

And knowing players that is exactly what they‘ll do (and GW even promoted).

I understand that catapults with their indirect fire are used in the most senseful way: snipinng.

finally medieval tech can deliver precise headshots to the enemy General amidst his men 1000m away. 🤣

Edited November 13, 2019 by JackStreicher

[XReN]

9 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Quite honestly: All instant slay abilities should just be removed from the game and granting it to a 200 pts model is just stupidly too strong.

if your enemy gets lucky he/she can oneshot a frakin‘ dragon. Who the Frakk thought that was funny OR a good idea?

„Ha I just killed your Vampire Lord on Zombiedragon!“ - SUCH FUN, INCREDIBLE! Almost as much fun as getting all your valuable models removed by hand of dust - what an utter design masterpiece, could it be that they slapped that on a model that costs 65€ on purpose? GW? Nah never.

It needs to drop like what, 9 wounds before it can? Instant slay abilities are fine, after a year of playing FEC and multiple instances of rolling hot with Gaping Maw I can't see an issue. Last saturday my GKoTG destroyed following things in 1 combat phase with only  Gruesome bite and Feeding Frenzy: 

Dragonlord
Shalaxi
KO Frigate
4 and a half gore-gruntas

And objectively those abilities should exist to counter things like Ethereal 3+ save monsters, Petrifex Elite Nagash, double 5++ shrug Verminlord Warpseers, ect. There isn't even much of those abilities presented at the moment.

[JackStreicher]

16 minutes ago, XReN said:

It needs to drop like what, 9 wounds before it can? Instant slay abilities are fine, after a year of playing FEC and multiple instances of rolling hot with Gaping Maw I can't see an issue. Last saturday my GKoTG destroyed following things in 1 combat phase with only  Gruesome bite and Feeding Frenzy: 

Dragonlord
Shalaxi
KO Frigate
4 and a half gore-gruntas

And objectively those abilities should exist to counter things like Ethereal 3+ save monsters, Petrifex Elite Nagash, double 5++ shrug Verminlord Warpseers, ect. There isn't even much of those abilities presented at the moment.

You can react to the Terrorgheist though: Debuff It with spells and the likes, bog it down with dispensable units etc. You can‘t react at all to a 36“ range „LOOOL I JUST KILLED YOUR HERO“ bs.

oneshots are just broken and onesided.

strangely enough Nagash is the worst offender of obeshots and a Petrifex Nagash is broken (due to his teleporting out of combat spell OB grant to him)

About the reason we need oneshots as you claim: Enabling such absurd defensive buffs was just another awful game design decision.

Edited November 13, 2019 by JackStreicher

[XReN]

5 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

You can react to the Terrorgheist though: Debuff It with spells and the likes, bog it down with dispensable units etc. You can‘t react at all to a 36“ range „LOOOL I JUST KILLED YOUR HERO“ bs.

At the same time your opponent usually can't manipulate Slay abilities, with exceptions being Archaon with Fate Points and Nagash with Spell Portal.

Whille Terrorgheist can be buffed to hell.

Also you can counter Crawler with deployment and LOS-blocks. Which is something you should be skilled at if you want to play this game and win no matter if you use it to counter shooting, alpha strikes or insta-kill abilities

Edited November 13, 2019 by XReN

[JackStreicher]

5 minutes ago, XReN said:

Also you can counter Crawler with deployment and LOS-blocks. Which is something you should be skilled at if you want to play this game and win no matter if you use it to counter shooting, alpha strikes or insta-kill abilities

Also utterly dependent on your collection of scenery.

if you‘d build a table like GW describes in their rules you‘d just be royally frakked every game.

at the same time it‘s kind of hard to grab objectives, buff a unit with your aura AND hide the hero. Which means you think it is fine that one catapult counters up to three 5 wound buff characters at the same time 🧐

I Hope you realize the absurdity of defending the sniper-Pult that just happens to hit on 2+ in order to mitigate „watch out sir“. 

Edited November 13, 2019 by JackStreicher

[XReN]

59 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Also utterly dependent on your collection of scenery.

if you‘d build a table like GW describes in their rules you‘d just be royally frakked every game.

at the same time it‘s kind of hard to grab objectives, buff a unit with your aura AND hide the hero. Which means you think it is fine that one catapult counters up to three 5 wound buff characters at the same time 🧐

I Hope you realize the absurdity of defending the sniper-Pult that just happens to hit on 2+ in order to mitigate „watch out sir“. 

I hope you realise absurdity of argueing over rules on paper. Hero sniping is a thing in this game, deal with it.  Where something as stupid as 10 aelf witches can mince a Terrorgheist in one phase there is a place for warmachine sniping heroes in first turn, you're crying wolf like it's the first time your characters are endangered by ranged threats. 

Edited November 13, 2019 by XReN

[JackStreicher]

22 minutes ago, XReN said:

I hope you realise absurdity of argueing over rules on paper. Hero sniping is a thing in this game, deal with it.  Where something as stupid as 10 aelf witches can mince a Terrorgheist in one phase there is a place for warmachine sniping heroes in first turn, you're crying wolf like it's the first time your characters are endangered by ranged threats. 

No I in contrast to you I don‘t accept every bs GW puts out and declare it as reasonable, good game design and absolutely needed, I am actually critical especially if the overperforming unit that can turn entire games on average happens to cost a small fortune - what coincidence!

I argue that the entire RULESET is bs, fun-robbing, generally unneeded and is just a means to sell an overpriced kit.

That‘s my last word on this discussion since you seem to run out of  arguments.

 

kind regards.

Edited November 13, 2019 by JackStreicher

[Panzer]

4 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

No I in contrast to you I don‘t accept every bs GW puts out and declare it as reasonable, good game design and absolutely needed, I am actually critical especially if the overperforming unit that can turn entire games on average happens to cost a small fortune - what coincidence!

I argue that the entire RULESET is bs, fun-robbing, generally unneeded and is just a means to sell an overpriced kit.

That‘s my last word on this discussion since you seem to run out of  arguments.

 

kind regards.

Just because someone disagrees with you it doesn't automatically mean they aren't critical and are accepting every bs. You might want to take a step back and breath for a minute.

[XReN]

6 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

No I in contrast to you don‘t accept every bs GW puts out and declare it as reasonable, good game design and absolutely needed, I am actually critical especially if the overperforming unit that can turn entire games on average happens to cost a small fortune - what coincidence!

I argue that the entire RULESET is bs, fun-ribbing and just a means to sell an overpriced kit.

It's a matter of perception, I don't see Crawler as bs because there have been and still around things just as strong as Crawler is and they are fine. 

[JackStreicher]

16 minutes ago, XReN said:

It's a matter of perception, I don't see Crawler as bs because there have been and still around things just as strong as Crawler is and they are fine. 

There aren’t, the range + definitely killing 1-3 heroes is the issue. It dictates the entire game. No Nighthaunt player will have a good Time vs this thing =}

you mentioned an important point about it: heroes have always been endangered by shooting. This catapult however does not endanger them, it certainly kills them and that is the biggest issue with it. The distinction between endangering and mathematically killing your hero on average no matter what is important and it is what makes this model utter bs.

 

sorry if I get carried away from time to time but GW‘s Power creeping is a trigger topic for me. (It was awesome having to shelve my DoK a year ago since my enemies could not handle them at all due to DoK overperforming).

in a competetive environment I don‘t see the catapult being an issue since the meta will adapt - that‘s their jam. However the biggest part of the community are casual players and these catspults will destroy their games. It will force a playstyle of monster heroes only (this feels like the situation of 8th where monsters were made redundant due to cannons but this time it‘s the 5 wound heroes)

Edited November 13, 2019 by JackStreicher

[XReN]

4 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

There aren’t, the range + definitely killing 1-3 heroes is the issue. It dictates the entire game. No Nighthaunt player will have a good Time vs this thing =}

you mentioned an important point about it: heroes have always been endangered by shooting. This catapult however does not endanger them, it certainly kills them and that is the biggest issue with it. The difference of endanger and mathematically killing your hero on average no matter what.

The only thing that was able to kill a hero with mathematical certanity was Kunning Rukk, the guy playing this list was just taking out calculator to distribute his shooting and he wasn't wrong once.

Between look out sir and cover there are not many heroes that this thing can kill with certanity, can you say that about Longstrikes or KO Arkanaughts - no, they will murder your hero once they reach them and Longstrikes basicaly outrange Crawlers due to teleportation abilities.  

[JackStreicher]

1 minute ago, XReN said:

Between look out sir and cover there are not many heroes that this thing can kill with certanity, can you say that about Longstrikes or KO Arkanaughts - no, they will murder your hero once they reach them and Longstrikes basicaly outrange Crawlers due to teleportation abilities.  

These lists are (highly) specialized. The crawler is just a model - no synergies required.

[XReN]

1 minute ago, JackStreicher said:

These lists are (highly) specialized. The crawler is just a model - no synergies required.

There is about 40% chance for the Crawler to kill a character with Look Out Sir and cover making said character a 4+ save

So across the 5 turns you should expect to kill 2 such characters that would cost 200 points on average, just like a Crawler. You can perform such deed in early turns just as likely as in later turns. When a unit that can't really contribute to objective game and is not a battleline I think it's fair for such unit to be able to earn back it's points. 

And value that you may or may not get from utilising this unit is supposed to be discussed only in comparisson to other niche things that are capable of completing similar objectives on the table. 

[JackStreicher]

2 minutes ago, XReN said:

There is about 40% chance for the Crawler to kill a character with Look Out Sir and cover making said character a 4+ save

So across the 5 turns you should expect to kill 2 such characters that would cost 200 points on average, just like a Crawler. You can perform such deed in early turns just as likely as in later turns. When a unit that can't really contribute to objective game and is not a battleline I think it's fair for such unit to be able to earn back it's points. 

And value that you may or may not get from utilising this unit is supposed to be discussed only in comparisson to other niche things that are capable of completing similar objectives on the table. 

It’s a 83.33% chance if it throws all three shots.

against a 5+ it‘s 111% chance.

Edited November 13, 2019 by JackStreicher