AoS 2 - Ogor Mawtribe Discussion

[Fundre]

Another amazingly simple fix for Mournfang would be a 3+ save?? Alternatively just let them hit on 3s... both would make the 140pt price tag much more worthwhile

[MKsmash]

1 hour ago, Fundre said:

Another amazingly simple fix for Mournfang would be a 3+ save?? Alternatively just let them hit on 3s... both would make the 140pt price tag much more worthwhile

3+ save would make absolutely no sense with the lore though. That would make Mournfang have a better save than Stonehorns, which is rather ridiculous.

Hitting on 3's would be great though.

[Beastmaster]

I don’t get that too. Even the most basic unit, the humble glutton, hits on 3 nowadays.  Mournfangs should too.

[Hebroseph]

I am 11 games in with my new mawtribes army and i'm currently sitting at 8-4 win/loss. Not all games were super competitive as part of them were during an escalation league so point values and lists changed drastically over the weeks.  My three losses were to 120 Plague monks, Ironjawz that beat me on objective, and also lost to me previously(very close match, could of gone either way) and Fyreslayers, who got a first turn charge with 30 berzerkers into most of my army and then killed most of said army.  

I realized that most of my wins vs mid tier armies came from curb stomping units with big blocks of gluttons and leadbelchers. My wins vs upper tier armies like OBR and Slaanesh came from scoring objectives, something that Mawtribes kinda excels at with our new rules. I set out to design a list that I think could capitalize on our ability to score, and worry less about killing things.  We dominate melee vs non-melee armies, but against an army designed to fight, we lack the tools to beat them. Either supreme defense like OBR Mortek and Fyreslayer berserkers, or fight first antics like FEC/Slaanesh/STD/Whoever, counters our general lack of rend and normal combat order. 

In my loss vs Fyreslayers, I lost because I got tabled, but I did manage to casually take away objectives from them. Being on 40mm bases We are able to crowd out the 12 inch bubble around objectives very easily, and counting for 2 for scoring makes it hard for people to get enough into range out point us. I started thinking about this  and this is what I came up with: 

Hunter, General Wintertouched with Frostfang

Hunter

Butcher - Wizardflesh apron, Ripcracker Spell

Battleline

2 x 6 Sabertooth Cats

1 x 12 Gluttons

Other

1 x 12 Leadbelchers

1 x 9 Icefall Yhetees

Balewind Vortex

Prismatic Palisades

Skal Battalion 

The premise behind the list vs an opponent you can't out melee is to jam the opponent early and hopefully get up on points, and then make them chew through our hitpoints to take back the points. You won't out attrition them, but hopefully  you can out score them. Depending on the mission you operate in two flanks, with the yhetees running towards where the hunter general deepstrikes in with his cats. The other hunter and cats deepstrike towards the other objectives, with    gluttons backing them up. Leadbelchers move down the middle with the butcher to try and support which ever side needs it. The plan is by the time they chew through the cats, they have to deal with yhetees and gluttons, and by they finish those, hopefully you are high enough on the points that they can't come back in the last round or two. 

 

If you are playing an opponent who is faster or has more deepstrike to try and take your objectives, then you play a more normal Ogre list, which I have not had much problem handling. Using your cats instead to screen or protect your objectives, while your boys churn through their army. I'm currently short 6 cats, but will be proxying them this weekend and trying out this list.  I think this has some serious legs, but will take a lot of practice to get good at positioning and also knowing what your opponent is capable of. 

Winterbite is kind of a "whatever" pick. The purpose of this list is to stall for time and ramp up the score as fast as possible. Meatfist is a wash, there isnt room for enough shooting for Underguts, Boulderhead and thunderbelly are missing units. With only one wizard, bloodgullet seemed kind of a waste, especially since your butcher will have to move around, and can't stand by the pot for the cast bonus.  With Winterbite, I figure the -1 to hit in shooting in your half, helps in some match ups, the +1 to wound fighting first for cats and yhetees helps output damage. More damage means less hitting you, and the longer you can stall. I put the wizard apron on the butcher mostly because I didnt know what else to pick. I figure with balewind up, you can cast palisades to get in the way and buy more time, and then start casting rip cracker and the maw to try and whittle down a unit facing off against your boy

Comments, concerns, critiques?

[Hebroseph]

I've read and been told conflicting reports concerning the Yhetee tactic of piling in outside of combat range. I've read that if you wait till your opponent is out of combat activations and passes the turn to you, you can then pile in and fight with the yhetee, but because your opponent has "officially passed the turn" he can't go back and reactivate a unit. 

That seems like the kind of rules interaction that would get FAQ'ed and i've been told that it doesnt work that way, but I couldnt find anything in the FAQ about it. I've also been told that it works, but only during your opponents turn, but they couldnt provide any info either. 

Anybody have any cite-able sources, or direct me to the right FAQ that addresses this? It goes a long way towards seeing Yhetees as being a valued option in Mawtribes, or just speed bumps. 

 

[EldritchX]

2 hours ago, Hebroseph said:

If you are playing an opponent who is faster or has more deepstrike to try and take your objectives, then you play a more normal Ogre list, which I have not had much problem handling. Using your cats instead to screen or protect your objectives, while your boys churn through their army. I'm currently short 6 cats, but will be proxying them this weekend and trying out this list.  I think this has some serious legs, but will take a lot of practice to get good at positioning and also knowing what your opponent is capable of.

This unfortunately isn't useful for a tournament, because you can't change lists after knowing your opponent. Also, from my experience so far, cats are terrible value, being unable to absorb much damage for their cost, nor hit hard enough against modest targets. The Hunter is also dead weight. They need to drop to 30 and 100 points to really be considered. An equivalent points value of Gnoblars/Yhetees/Gluttons do the job better. Seriously, if you dropped 12 cats, the Hunter and the Skal, you have enough for 12 Gluttons and change.

Yhetees are brutal killers in Winterbite, and don't need to be fielded in units of 12 like Gluttons do. 3 or 6 Yhetees significantly outperform 3 or 6 Gluttons in a WB list. If you support them with some -to hit they're even harder to kill.

[Hebroseph]

35 minutes ago, EldritchX said:

This unfortunately isn't useful for a tournament, because you can't change lists after knowing your opponent. Also, from my experience so far, cats are terrible value, being unable to absorb much damage for their cost, nor hit hard enough against modest targets. The Hunter is also dead weight. They need to drop to 30 and 100 points to really be considered. An equivalent points value of Gnoblars/Yhetees/Gluttons do the job better. Seriously, if you dropped 12 cats, the Hunter and the Skal, you have enough for 12 Gluttons and change.

Yhetees are brutal killers in Winterbite, and don't need to be fielded in units of 12 like Gluttons do. 3 or 6 Yhetees significantly outperform 3 or 6 Gluttons in a WB list. If you support them with some -to hit they're even harder to kill.

Right, but did you read the list idea. I'm aware that cats arnt very good. What they do have is deepstriking and the ability to put pressure on enemy objectives. 12 gluttons and change does nothing when you lose the whole unit and kill 3 fyreslayers, or a double fighting terrorgeist/ keeper of secrets one shots the unit before they get to swing.  I know gluttons are good, but only against units that also arnt good in melee. They are school yard bullies who fold against somebody who actually knows how to fight.  Removing hunters, cats and skal, for another block of gluttons, just makes it a regular Ogre list, that can't compete against top lists. I'm trying to think outside the box and give us a shot against some of the better lists. 

Kinda how like Beasts of Chaos, has units across the board that are trash, but they still pull out wins because they play to the objective and not to killing. I'm trying to use our fast, obnoxious units, to stall to make it too late to eat through 96 wounds of ogres late game to take back objectives and catch up on points. 

I've run 3 blocks of 12 gluttons, when it works, it works great but not really the point of the above list. 

 

Edit: concerning the Yhetee vs Glutton issue I ran the numbers, 3 gluttons, 9 attacks at 3/3/-/2 and 3 attacks at 3/3/-1 generate 5.48 wounds against a 4+ save 

Yhetee without the general's buff to wound with 9 attacks 4/3/-1/2 generate 4.67 wounds per round against a 4+ save and 5.83 wounds with the generals buff to their wound roll. Less than half a wound difference, while requiring buff radius management isn't what i call "significantly outperforming".  Infact, because they are so equal, I think running one big block, to be easier to keep the buff going instead of trying to juggle multiple units in the radius, while maximizing the damage swing on striking first, is the way to go for WB Yhetees. Get in, get as much damage done before the opponent swings, to help mitigate their 6+ save.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Hebroseph

[EldritchX]

17 minutes ago, Hebroseph said:

Right, but did you read the list idea. I'm aware that cats arnt very good. What they do have is deepstriking and the ability to put pressure on enemy objectives. 12 gluttons and change does nothing when you lose the whole unit and kill 3 fyreslayers, or a double fighting terrorgeist/ keeper of secrets one shots the unit before they get to swing.  I know gluttons are good, but only against units that also arnt good in melee. They are school yard bullies who fold against somebody who actually knows how to fight.  Removing hunters, cats and skal, for another block of gluttons, just makes it a regular Ogre list, that can't compete against top lists. I'm trying to think outside the box and give us a shot against some of the better lists. 

Kinda how like Beasts of Chaos, has units across the board that are trash, but they still pull out wins because they play to the objective and not to killing. I'm trying to use our fast, obnoxious units, to stall to make it too late to eat through 96 wounds of ogres late game to take back objectives and catch up on points. 

I've run 3 blocks of 12 gluttons, when it works, it works great but not really the point of the above list. 

If you're looking at a tailored list to address a specific opponent, (a big) maybe. But in a tournament? The list has barely any teeth and the 'pressure' from 6 cats and a Hunter would barely dent a 200 point objective holding unit, while costing significantly more.

If you don't like 12 Gluttons and change, bring a FLoSH with the cloak and change/Cogs to threaten the same backline objectives instead. He can double up as a frontline combatant when appropriate too.

Edited December 11, 2019 by EldritchX

[Hebroseph]

Fair enough, a thermal rider cloak FLOSH is a valid option for threatening a flank. Its not tailoring to a specific opponent, its a group of opponents.  Blocks of gluttons have no answer for any of the top tier opponents. This is just an out of the box thought exercise to try and come up with something besides feeding meat into the Mortek Guard grinder and never getting anything back from it. 

If you got all 12 Gluttons into a Petrefix Mortek Block, and got all 36 swings in, you would average 28 hits, then 18 wounds, and they would fail a whopping 2 for a grand total of 4 damage from your 400 points unit.  That same squad of 20 guard then swing back dealing 15.56 damage killing almost 4 gluttons. Their 230 points killed as many models as your 400 point squad did. Then Arkhan regenerates 3 of the 4 dead and so on and so on.  That seems like a folly to fall into that trap when its no different facing off against hearthguard berserkers, or keeper of secrets, or plague monks. 

One of my matches, my OBR opponent was jovially talking trash about how resilient his Guard are, and I rolled hot, 5 MW on my Flosh on the charge, then rolled a 6 for metalcruncher and ate his 10 man unit before taking a swing. He didnt think it was funny anymore lol. Shooting and mortal wounds answer a lot of problems with top lists, but there are plenty of people trying to make an Underguts list work  

 

[MKsmash]

1 hour ago, Hebroseph said:

Shooting and mortal wounds answer a lot of problems with top lists, but there are plenty of people trying to make an Underguts list work  

 

Sadly, Underguts aren't great under most circumstances. You're almost always bringing it for the command ability alone. It's nice when it works, but it's mostly a gimmick. Bloodgullet often hauls more ****** unless you're taking a whole lot of leadbelchers, who are too swingy.

 

[Forrix]

I've been strongly considering picking up some cats (well, frensian wolves) for screening purposes. In the games I've played my Gluttons and Ironguts can do some serious damage but get deleted easily (my meta is not a soft one). Gnoblars are decent but screening a movement 8 unit with a movement 5 unit has caused its own problems.

[ryanguy88]

On 12/9/2019 at 2:20 PM, Warbossironteef said:

What do you guys think about a list like this? No Tribe, but a mixed army. It gives you screen, anvil unit in 12xOgors and some movement/ambush. Do you think the Tyrant is worth it in this list or would a Butcher be better?

Frostlord on Stonehorn (400) - Ethereal Amulet, Black Clatterhorns
Tyrant (160)
Icebrow Hunter (120) - Winter Ranger, Kattarnak Browplate
20 x Gnoblars (100)
8 x Ironguts (440)
12 x Ogor Gluttons (400)
10 x Frost Sabres (200)
2 x Frost Sabres (40)
2 x Frost Sabres (40)
Skal (100)

2000/2000

I think that's an interesting list and could do well. I think I'd say you'd probably get more out of a Slaughtermaster.  You've got a lot of combat power already with the 12 Gluttons, 8 Ironguts, and FLoSH.  Tyrant seems a little redundant, you won't /really/ need his command ability, and the Slaughtermaster would be able to provide a bunch of buffs to enhance your killy units.  Plus, with the 20 points saved you might get a feat or whatever.

[Warbossironteef]

Yeah I'm just waiting for my Wolves (frost sabres) to arrive then I'm putting it on the table. I'm going to breakout 2 more Sabres from the 10xman unit to have another screening/obj unit. 

I think it has balance. The Command points are actually really powerful on FLOSH. You can give him reroll 1's to his save and hits, both are super valuable on an Ethereal 400 point monster.

 

[The Cranky Dwarf]

I'm interested in what people think about flosh w/ brand of svard and clatterhorn. Is it worth foregoing the ethereal amulet for the extra punch?

[Warbossironteef]

13 minutes ago, The Cranky Dwarf said:

I'm interested in what people think about flosh w/ brand of svard and clatterhorn. Is it worth foregoing the ethereal amulet for the extra punch?

IMO I would go either for speed or tankiness. I'd consider trading the amulet for Thermalrider cloak. The speed and FLY are big. That's just my personal taste. I want him to get to the fight healthier (amulet) or get there faster. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Warbossironteef

[Skoll]

On 12/10/2019 at 8:49 AM, Beastmaster said:

I don’t get that too. Even the most basic unit, the humble glutton, hits on 3 nowadays.  Mournfangs should too.

somewhere in the distance a minotaur/bullgor is heard crying

[Beastmaster]

5 hours ago, Skoll said:

somewhere in the distance a minotaur/bullgor is heard crying

They get 7 attacks and Rend, they should keep quiet 😎

[peasant]

9 minutes ago, Beastmaster said:

They get 7 attacks and Rend, they should keep quiet 😎

Bullgors are bad completely useless but minotaur is awesome for its points

[Eevika]

Hi I just ordered this thing from Scibor to use as a stonehorn

 

I was just wondering if anyone else has done the same thing? Would love to see some photos

[Kramer]

8 minutes ago, Eevika said:

Hi I just ordered this thing from Scibor to use as a stonehorn

 

I was just wondering if anyone else has done the same thing? Would love to see some photos

Dope mini!  Nice painting challenge as well 

[Eevika]

2 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Dope mini!  Nice painting challenge as well 

Yeah probably painting it for a competition as well. We have a painting comp here at the start of the year. I won last year with my Troggoth Hag so I have to continue the streak now 

[Kramer]

Just now, Eevika said:

Yeah probably painting it for a competition as well. We have a painting comp here at the start of the year. I won last year with my Troggoth Hag so I have to continue the streak now 

Haha that’s the gamblers spirit never stop on a win  

no good luck and be sure to share the results. 👍

[Skoll]

5 hours ago, Beastmaster said:

They get 7 attacks and Rend, they should keep quiet 😎

What kind of math/alchemy are you doing to get that number?

[Jabbuk]

Was wondering: is there such a thing as a list that could include a mostly BCR force with a Tyrant and gluttons and Firebreather caster or would it be too horrible?

[Beastmaster]

24 minutes ago, Skoll said:

What kind of math/alchemy are you doing to get that number?

Just my own stupidity, by adding all the weapon options. 😅

Sorry, horned lads!