AoS 2 - Ogor Mawtribe Discussion

[MKsmash]

6 hours ago, Kramer said:

Not Snarky at all. First off, they are a utility unit and they have always worked well for me. So the maths isn't that important, but you did leave out the re-rolls on the save. Big part of my argument that you ignored  

The reason I don't find much value in the mathhammer side of things is that it leaves out so, so much. Damage potential only calculates things in a optimum vacuum. Ignoring variables such as: do you really get 12 Ogors within 1"? Or 10 for that matter? How many survive a punch if struck first? Can you get them where they are close to that optimum vacuum? Do you get buffs, debuffs etc in there? How long can you maintain the Monster charge minimum of 8 ogors in a unit? Battleline/Battalion requirements? Etc. 
Some off these will favour the Gluttons over the Leadbelchers and vice versa. 

That' the reason I didn't argue taking 2 units of leadbelchers over Gluttons. But rather one unit of each, so you have that versatility. 

But let's do some math then with the re-rolls:

First off it isn't great but it's an extra 2-5 wounds against a three up, 3-6 against a four up, and 3-8 against a five up. All without re-rolls though. My napkin math tells me that the 6's to hit will average half a hit extra per ogor, with a 3+ wounds means 4 extra  saves for your opponent. So i'm fine with striking them against each other. Shooting is a bit more damaging but only happens half the turns. 

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Again my argument is that's it's super useful to have the utility of the leadbelchers and the gluttons. So as per my original example vs a 3+ save re-rolling fails. 

Leadbelchers getting in 10: 

Gluttons getting in all 12:

Combat Calculator doesn't allow me to take in account 're-roll fails happens before modifiers' vs higher saves. 

So, now i'm getting my snark on  Clearly, Leadbelchers are superior in melee combat... if you get them into the right units. 

Now I still maintain these calculations are a bit useless because: Getting 12 in? 10 for that matter? Rarely happens in my games. So that's going to throw things around massively. Not to mention all the others variables like buffs, debuffs, extra round of shooting, spiking sixes to save or to hit. 

But for me, if anything, the maths prove that there is a place for Gluttons and Leadbelchers in the same Gutbuster focussed lists. So that's why I take Gluttons and Leadbelchers. They are superior to each other in different situations. Having options is King.

And yeah, if you just looking for damage potential Ironguts win against everything except the Frostlord on stonehorn 😂But then you end up with the Doom & Darkness list. 2 stonehorns, 8 ironguts, a butcher to buff and Hunter with cats to screen and ambush. 

@Kimbo I'm not arguing there is a clear winner for you, all things from in game match up to battalion requirements can change the use of both. But they are worth testing out imo.  

One thing I'm a little confused about here is this "reroll saves." Are we assuming the unit being targeted can rerolls saves?

As to whether or not I can fit in 12 or even 12 gluttons, the same can apply for the big unit of Gluttons.

Now, there is something else here. Gluttons fit better into battalions and have more ways to be buffed. They fit into any Gutbuster themed list, whereas I would say Leadbelchers fit into only some lists.

[Latty]

Has anyone tried using Greasus Goldtooth/Overtyrant since the book came out? Has he been useful at all?

[Kramer]

3 hours ago, MKsmash said:

One thing I'm a little confused about here is this "reroll saves." Are we assuming the unit being targeted can rerolls saves?

As to whether or not I can fit in 12 or even 12 gluttons, the same can apply for the big unit of Gluttons.

Now, there is something else here. Gluttons fit better into battalions and have more ways to be buffed. They fit into any Gutbuster themed list, whereas I would say Leadbelchers fit into only some lists.

Yeah. I frequently play sequitors for example. Luckily not a 3+ but 4+ re-rolling fails. And the succes of rend in part is due to it being applied after the rerolls. So all 4’s cant be re-rolled, because it isn’t a fail, and then the rend is applied and it turns into 2 damage. 

the second point has gluttons many times in there where one or more should be leadbelchers I assume 😅 
I feel like I’m missing something there. Could you explain? 
but in favour of leadbelchers is that, because we compared 10 vs 12, they will improve relatively to gluttons if you get less in mathematically. On a more practical note, the banner of the gluttons is so crazy valuable. 

as to your last point. Are their any battalions that require gluttons but not leadbelchers? 🤔 don’t have the book at hand so I can’t check it. 
 

 

[MKsmash]

33 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Yeah. I frequently play sequitors for example. Luckily not a 3+ but 4+ re-rolling fails. And the succes of rend in part is due to it being applied after the rerolls. So all 4’s cant be re-rolled, because it isn’t a fail, and then the rend is applied and it turns into 2 damage. 

the second point has gluttons many times in there where one or more should be leadbelchers I assume 😅 
I feel like I’m missing something there. Could you explain? 
but in favour of leadbelchers is that, because we compared 10 vs 12, they will improve relatively to gluttons if you get less in mathematically. On a more practical note, the banner of the gluttons is so crazy valuable. 

as to your last point. Are their any battalions that require gluttons but not leadbelchers? 🤔 don’t have the book at hand so I can’t check it. 
 

 

Ahhh, that's what the reroll saves is. Yeah, I guess Leadbelchers could be good for that purpose but do you really want to take them relying on fighting armies with reroll saves...😅🤷‍♂️
There are no battalions that require gluttons but not belchers. I knew this. What I meant was that the good battalions  (read: Goremand) required you to take EXACTLY one unit of belchers and ironguts, forcing you to take at least an extra 80 points of (in my mind) meh. Looking at the book, I see that you are allowed to take 1-3, not exactly one (I think I was confusing them with the Ironguts). This argument of battalions is blown out of the water 🤦‍♂️
However, I still hold that there are more ways to buff Gluttons.
I don't know what you're missing. Did I have bad grammar or an incomplete sentence or something like that?

[Zorki]

Hello, the first list isn't ok, you don't have the ironguts needed for goremand batalion.

[Kramer]

9 hours ago, MKsmash said:

As to whether or not I can fit in 12 or even 12 gluttons, the same can apply for the big unit of Gluttons

Everything is super clear and well put. It was just this sentence, that I was unsure off. 
 

5 hours ago, MKsmash said:

However, I still hold that there are more ways to buff Gluttons.
I don't know what you're missing. Did I have bad grammar or an incomplete sentence or something like that?

I think the only glutton specific buff is the blood Gullit command Ability? Which is pretty good! 

but I think I the end, the discussion is super interesting but we won’t convince the other because we have good experiences with our preferences. Still good to know the other side of the coin. 

5 hours ago, MKsmash said:

Ahhh, that's what the reroll saves is. Yeah, I guess Leadbelchers could be good for that purpose but do you really want to take them relying on fighting armies with reroll saves...

This is actually a very good point. Depending on your opponents you might want tailor your list or take more of an all comers list. 
for me I like the tournament style: take all comers and scenarios lists. So that definitely plays into my choices. I happily the utility of the leadbelchers rather than the second block of 12 gluttons. 

[James101]

7 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Everything is super clear and well put. It was just this sentence, that I was unsure off. 
 

I think the only glutton specific buff is the blood Gullit command Ability? Which is pretty good! 

but I think I the end, the discussion is super interesting but we won’t convince the other because we have good experiences with our preferences. Still good to know the other side of the coin. 

This is actually a very good point. Depending on your opponents you might want tailor your list or take more of an all comers list. 
for me I like the tournament style: take all comers and scenarios lists. So that definitely plays into my choices. I happily the utility of the leadbelchers rather than the second block of 12 gluttons. 

I mean, if we’re talking about having already spent 400 points on a set of Gluttons and have another 400 points to spend elsewhere then it should be on a FLoSH instead of either of these two choices anyway so the discussion is fairly moot...

[MKsmash]

19 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Everything is super clear and well put. It was just this sentence, that I was unsure off. 
 

I think the only glutton specific buff is the blood Gullit command Ability? Which is pretty good! 

but I think I the end, the discussion is super interesting but we won’t convince the other because we have good experiences with our preferences. Still good to know the other side of the coin. 

This is actually a very good point. Depending on your opponents you might want tailor your list or take more of an all comers list. 
for me I like the tournament style: take all comers and scenarios lists. So that definitely plays into my choices. I happily the utility of the leadbelchers rather than the second block of 12 gluttons. 

Oh sorry, I didn't see that sentence! Yes, it is super confusing😅
It read in my head as :  As to whether or not I can fit in 12 or even 10 gluttons, the same can apply for the big unit of Leadbelchers.
There's also the Meatfist CA and the slaughtermaster spell that directly buff Gluttons.
Yeah, I dont think we're going to convince each other anytime soon 😂
Good debate!

[MKsmash]

15 minutes ago, James101 said:

I mean, if we’re talking about having already spent 400 points on a set of Gluttons and have another 400 points to spend elsewhere then it should be on a FLoSH instead of either of these two choices anyway so the discussion is fairly moot...

We're just talking about an entirely Gutbusters list (I think). While that might be the case, I don't know if a FLoSH is worth it outside of Boulderhead. Ehh, probably is.

[James101]

15 minutes ago, MKsmash said:

We're just talking about an entirely Gutbusters list (I think). While that might be the case, I don't know if a FLoSH is worth it outside of Boulderhead. Ehh, probably is.

It absolutely is worth it outside of Boulderhead. It’s the single best unit in the book. And not even close. Running full gutbusters is a mistake if you’re list optimising. If you’re shooting for fluff then, sure, go just with the fatboys. But for an optimised list you definitely need a FLoSH in there. 

Edited May 1, 2020 by James101

[MKsmash]

7 minutes ago, James101 said:

It absolutely is worth it outside of Boulderhead. It’s the single best unit in the book. And not even close. Running full gutbusters is a mistake if you’re list optimising. If you’re shooting for fluff then, sure, go just with the fatboys. But for an optimised list you definitely need a FLoSH in there. 

I agree, to the point where I would say the most competitive mawtribes list would be 2 FLoSH's, HoSH, SHBR, 4 Mournfang, 2 mournfang, and eurlbad - all BCR. 

I would say the second place spot for best unit is Ironguts, which is definitely close to number one  IMHO.

[Zorki]

I have some trouble about something : For 160 points left what you think are the best choice between : 

1 Icebrow hunter (120pts) + 2 Frost Sabre (40pts).

1 Hrothgorn (160pts) + Hrothgorn's Mantrappers (Free + including 1 frost sabre).

Thanks for your argu ! 🙂👍

[Kramer]

7 hours ago, MKsmash said:

Oh sorry, I didn't see that sentence! Yes, it is super confusing😅
It read in my head as :  As to whether or not I can fit in 12 or even 10 gluttons, the same can apply for the big unit of Leadbelchers.
There's also the Meatfist CA and the slaughtermaster spell that directly buff Gluttons.
Yeah, I dont think we're going to convince each other anytime soon 😂
Good debate!

Oh yeah meatfist.... don't know why I keep forgetting about them  
Good debate indeed. And a very good sign for the book if you can discuss the internal balance to this length. 

7 hours ago, James101 said:

It absolutely is worth it outside of Boulderhead. It’s the single best unit in the book. And not even close. Running full gutbusters is a mistake if you’re list optimising. If you’re shooting for fluff then, sure, go just with the fatboys. But for an optimised list you definitely need a FLoSH in there. 

The point was indeed about Gutbuster focus. While worth it outside Boulderhead the command ability to fight at full strength is so crazy good. I think that's what makes BCR lists like @MKsmash mentioned so powerful. The two inherent weaknesses of monsters, objective play and degrading through damage, are just gone. 

I wonder if we'll see, or would have seen, point changes to the frostlord. Or if they might drop/change the Realm artefacts and what that will do. 

4 hours ago, Zorki said:

I have some trouble about something : For 160 points left what you think are the best choice between : 

1 Icebrow hunter (120pts) + 2 Frost Sabre (40pts).

1 Hrothgorn (160pts) + Hrothgorn's Mantrappers (Free + including 1 frost sabre).

Thanks for your argu ! 🙂👍

For me you can't go wrong with the icebrow hunter with cats. Haven't played Hrothgorn though. But on paper the d6 mortals seems quite good but your opponent has so much influence on it, that i'd just rather get two cats. The option of setting the Butcher up in ambush but the Frost Sabres normally as a screen has been to valuable. Being forced to set up the Frost sabre next to Hrothgorn limits my options. 

But again this is theoretical for me. D6 Mw is always good of course. If only if forces your opponent ( 1 inch) wide of terrain. 

[Archibald]

Hello fellow Tyrants,

there would be a CTL-tournament league going on in our local Warhammer store right now. And i am theorycrafting some lists for my new (and finaly painted) Mawtribe. The pointlimit is 1500p. So it feels a bit odd because i always struggle to put everything in that i want. But i guess that is a problem at all pointlimits.😄

 

I came up with three lists abf would like to hear your opinions. 
Am open to any improvements and/or tips. Next time i will use the warscroll builder for a better list presentation...

 

list 1:

Ogor Mawtribes

Bloodgullet

Syhsh

140p Gourmand-Batallion

 

140p Slaughtermaster (General, Nice drop of the red stuff, Ribcracker, Bloodfeast)

120p Hunter (Splattercleaver)

 

Battleline

400p 12x Gluttons

440p 8x Ironguts

160p 4x Leadbelchers

 

100p 20x Gnoblars

 

1500p/1500p

 

list 2:

Ogor Mawtribes

No Tribe

Syhsh

100p Skal

 

400p Frostlord on Stonehorn (Etherial Amulett, Metalcrunsher)

140p Slaughtermaster (Wizardflesh apron, Ribcracker)

120p Hunter (General, Winter Ranger)

 

Battleline

400p 12x Gluttons

40p 2x Frostsabers

80p 4x Frostsabers

 

220p 4x Ironguts

 

1500p/1500p
 

list 3:

Ogor Mawtribes

Bloodgullet

Syhsh

 

400p Frostlord on Stonehorn (Splatterclever, Metalcrunsher)

140p Slaughtermaster (General, nice drop of the red stuff, Ribcracker, Bloodfeast)

 

Battleline

400p 12x Gluttons

220p 4x Ironguts

220p 4x Ironguts

 

100p 20x Gnoblars

 

1480p/1500p

[Archibald]

18 hours ago, Latty said:

Has anyone tried using Greasus Goldtooth/Overtyrant since the book came out? Has he been useful at all?

He is no longer part of the warscrolls in the Ogor Mawtribes book. So i guess you would play him as a very fancy looking normal tyrant.😄

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, Archibald said:

He is no longer part of the warscrolls in the Ogor Mawtribes book. So i guess you would play him as a very fancy looking normal tyrant.😄

Haha o play him as a slaughtermaster currently. Handing out money, gems and artefacts. And occasionally choking on one. He has a fancy staff like any wizard should... and the right base size  

1 hour ago, Archibald said:

Hello fellow Tyrants,

there would be a CTL-tournament league going on in our local Warhammer store right now. And i am theorycrafting some lists for my new (and finaly painted) Mawtribe. The pointlimit is 1500p. So it feels a bit odd because i always struggle to put everything in that i want. But i guess that is a problem at all pointlimits.😄

 

I came up with three lists abf would like to hear your opinions. 
Am open to any improvements and/or tips. Next time i will use the warscroll builder for a better list presentation...

 

list 1:

Ogor Mawtribes

Bloodgullet

Syhsh

140p Gourmand-Batallion

 

140p Slaughtermaster (General, Nice drop of the red stuff, Ribcracker, Bloodfeast)

120p Hunter (Splattercleaver)

 

Battleline

400p 12x Gluttons

440p 8x Ironguts

160p 4x Leadbelchers

 

100p 20x Gnoblars

 

1500p/1500p

 

list 2:

Ogor Mawtribes

No Tribe

Syhsh

100p Skal

 

400p Frostlord on Stonehorn (Etherial Amulett, Metalcrunsher)

140p Slaughtermaster (Wizardflesh apron, Ribcracker)

120p Hunter (General, Winter Ranger)

 

Battleline

400p 12x Gluttons

40p 2x Frostsabers

80p 4x Frostsabers

 

220p 4x Ironguts

 

1500p/1500p
 

list 3:

Ogor Mawtribes

Bloodgullet

Syhsh

 

400p Frostlord on Stonehorn (Splatterclever, Metalcrunsher)

140p Slaughtermaster (General, nice drop of the red stuff, Ribcracker, Bloodfeast)

 

Battleline

400p 12x Gluttons

220p 4x Ironguts

220p 4x Ironguts

 

100p 20x Gnoblars

 

1480p/1500p

Do you play 2 or 3 battleline required?  
 

im partial to no tribe at lower points as well  

I like kist two the best. It has a hunter to put pressure on your opponent from the start. The sabres are fast, which is more important in small point games if you use the Normal scenarios. they can screen against full alpha lists. You have three serious threats in there. 
Only thing is the slaughtermaster with the apron I don’t know about. Because he remains only one cast. 
I personally would consider going blood gullet and a butcher. That way it’s still a support unit with the command ability. Then you have a two cast wizard and the artefact is not bad on the butcher. 

[Zorki]

Hello,

Same like Kramer said, the 2nd list looks the most versatile list.

Maybe swap Slaughtermaster's artefact to Shrunken Priest Head looks for me a better value. Bloodrock Talisman can be a good option too (depend of the match up you face).

 

🙂👍

[Archibald]

Thanks for the replies.

I forgot to mention that we play on 48 x 48 boards. Maybe that is important to know too.

When the store allows to play again, i will test list 2 with a bloodgullet butcher (my army hat a frosty Bloodgullet theme).

 

Oh, and i need some Frost sabers.😅

I was thinking about using Dire Wolves. The story behind them would be that in the harsh enviroments of the Everwinter the hungry Ogors sometimes snack on their Frost Sabers because there is nothing else.

What do you think?😄

[Kramer]

6 hours ago, Archibald said:

was thinking about using Dire Wolves. The story behind them would be that in the harsh enviroments of the Everwinter the hungry Ogors sometimes snack on their Frost Sabers because there is nothing else.

What do you think

I think the story is better (and cheaper) models  

perfectly acceptable proxy imo. 

good luck! Curious to see how 48x48 plays out. We do that for 1K battles but play 1,5K on full 6x4 tables. 
 

EDIT: @Archibald have you seen the fenrisian wolves btw? 

Edited May 2, 2020 by Kramer

[Archibald]

5 hours ago, Kramer said:

I think the story is better (and cheaper) models  

perfectly acceptable proxy imo. 

good luck! Curious to see how 48x48 plays out. We do that for 1K battles but play 1,5K on full 6x4 tables. 
 

EDIT: @Archibald have you seen the fenrisian wolves btw? 

Thanks man. So i will get some Dire Wolves soon.😎

I have seen Fenrisian Wolves but  don't really like the minis. Can't point a finger on it...

The CTL started in January. So i already had some games with my FEC (Ghouls).  It is because the store isn't big enough for more than one 6x4 table. It is still a ton of fun, but it definitely benefits slow armies.

I just bought my first Start Collecting BCR and was wondering how to equip the Mournfangs. Gargant Hackers or Clubs? Full Command? 
What would you say?

[Zorki]

Haha

 

Let's talk about a new technical build x)

Personnaly, if i have to go for 2 x 2 mournfang pack i build them with ironfist.

 

If you go on 4+ mournfang pack gargant are more efficient (theory crafter will confirme to you exaltly).

To conclude if you want to go on multi Small pack : Iron fist

4+ gargant hackers 

[Archibald]

2 hours ago, Zorki said:

Haha

 

Let's talk about a new technical build x)

Personnaly, if i have to go for 2 x 2 mournfang pack i build them with ironfist.

 

If you go on 4+ mournfang pack gargant are more efficient (theory crafter will confirme to you exaltly).

To conclude if you want to go on multi Small pack : Iron fist

4+ gargant hackers 

I guess that i will play them in 2x2.

So should i built two Hornblowers and two Skalgs?

And no Bannerbearers?

Edited May 2, 2020 by Archibald

[Kramer]

8 hours ago, Archibald said:

I guess that i will play them in 2x2.

@Zorki hits the nail on the head. The extra range on the gargant hacker is a big deal imo.  So mine are equiped with gargant hackers and the four i'm building will be the same. And they look cooler imo. 

Two models with Gargant hacker: 

Two with Prey Hackers

Both vs a 4up save. So even at two Gargant hackers spike and fail a bit more. And if you can get your opponent to kill them in melee the Ironfists will do a few Mortal Wounds in return. 

8 hours ago, Archibald said:

So should i built two Hornblowers and two Skalgs?

And no Bannerbearers?

In units of two you can get a Skalg. But no Horn blower or banner bearers.

If the option allows '1 in X amount of models' you can only take it if you meet that amount. So in a unit of 4 or 6 you're allowed a Skalg, Horn Blower and banner bearer. In a unit of 8, a Skalg, two Horn Blowers and two banner bearers. But in a unit of two only a Skalg is allowed.

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Kramer

[Archibald]

28 minutes ago, Kramer said:

@Zorki hits the nail on the head. The extra range on the gargant hacker is a big deal imo.  So mine are equiped with gargant hackers and the four i'm building will be the same. And they look cooler imo. 

Two models with Gargant hacker: 

Two with Prey Hackers

Both vs a 4up save. So even at two Gargant hackers spike and fail a bit more. And if you can get your opponent to kill them in melee the Ironfists will do a few Mortal Wounds in return. 

In units of two you can get a Skalg. But no Horn blower or banner bearers.

If the option allows '1 in X amount of models' you can only take it if you meet that amount. So in a unit of 4 or 6 you're allowed a Skalg, Horn Blower and banner bearer. In a unit of 8, a Skalg, two Horn Blowers and two banner bearers. But in a unit of two only a Skalg is allowed.

 

Thanks again guys!

so i will build mine with full Command and Clubs. The Bannerbearer gets a pistole on his belt so i can play him as a Skalg too. The Hornblower will just be played as a normal guy.

So i can play them both as 2x2 and 1x4.🤪

Would the Skalg/Hornblower/Bannerbearer in a unit with Gargant Hackers still hold just Clubs?

Is that okay ruleswise?

Edited May 3, 2020 by Archibald

[Kramer]

23 minutes ago, Archibald said:

Thanks again guys!

so i will build mine with full Command and Clubs. The Bannerbearer gets a pistole on his belt so i can play him as a Skalg too. The Hornblower will just be played as a normal guy.

So i can play them both as 2x2 and 1x4.🤪

Would the Skalg/Hornblower/Bannerbearer in a unit with Gargant Hackers still hold just Clubs?

Is that okay ruleswise?

Yeah banner bearers and hornblowers (or whatever they are called in different units) count as being equipped as the unit. 
Unit leaders occasionally get different equipment than the unit so that requires a bit more thought. So for the skalg make sure you have a pistol on there somewhere and you’re good.