Meeting Engagements with CoS

[Lord Hightower]

Hy fellow sigmarites,

 

As a Cities Player whose meta heavily focusses on ME I thougt about starting a topic to talk about lists and strategies for ME. A lot of people talk about strategies and lists for games with 2000 pts. for each of their cities in the city threads, but ME has a completely different approach since some of the new tactics relying on the AA (e.g. living city deepstrike or tempest eye movement and saves buff) as well as some of the stronger units in the new book (e.g. shadow warriors) simply do not work as good in ME as in a "normal" 2000 pts. pitched battles list, while other combinations of MSU or hammerhal-focused lists could be a better fit for such small games.

 

To start I want to discuss a tempest eye list:

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Spearhead
3 x Demigryph Knights (180)
- Lance and Sword

Main Body
Freeguild General (100)
- General
- Trait: Hawk-eyed
- Artefact: Patrician's Helm
Battlemage (90)
- Spell: Lore of Eagles - Aura of Glory (Tempest's Eye Wizard)
- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)
- Mortal Realm: Hysh
20 x Freeguild Crossbowmen (200)
20 x Freeguild Greatswords (320)
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)

Rearguard
5 x Freeguild Pistoliers (100)

Total: 990 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Wounds: 72
 

 

The idea is pretty simple: a fast and hard hitting unit in the spearhead for possible first round objective grab while also ready for some fighting. Strong main body fighting unit for hoding an objective with possible buffs from the heroes who generate CP whilst being supported from long range shooting. Small and fast unit of pistoliers in the rearguard for late game objective grabbing or some shooting and fighting with a few bodies if another objective is in imminent danger. 

But there are some things I am not quite happy:

I would prefer shadow warriors instead of pistoliers for late game objective grabbing but the variability of deployment in the different scenarios in combination with the shadow warriors deployment makes it quite hard to use them efficiently. I am also not quite sure about the city itself - the tempest Eye buff on saves and movement in the first round does not really help in ME, but the general-AA buff on movement could be viable. Same goes for the General's abilities - hawk eyed is nice, but when the crossbows stand still and get the hold-the-line it is pretty useless ^^ maybe hammerhal would be the better option.

 

How are your experiences with ME in with the new book? Which city offers the best AA for small games?

Thanks for the discussion and sorry for bad english 😉

[SentinelGuy]

I haven't played a meeting engagement yet, but I've been thinking about the following list. Like you, I also tried to make a Tempest's Eye list, but the first turn buffs don't really help a great amount. I've reached the point where I think Hammerhal is the only good option for meeting engagements because the buffs are there all the time. Although the CoS list first appears really broad, I don't think it is in reality because there are units that always feature in every 2000 point list you see posted. They're essentially the crutch of CoS, and ME games don't let us use them to the best of their ability because of weird deployment options and limited points. In ME games I think you're probably better off just playing a basic Order list if you aren't playing Hammerhal. At least that way you can take units that don't appear in CoS and aren't held back by the 1 in 4 for Sylvaneth and Stormcast.

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Hammerhal
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Spearhead
Sorceress (90)
- Spell: Lore of Cinder - Wings of Fire (Hammerhal Wizard)
- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)
10 x Freeguild Crossbowmen (100)
10 x Black Guard (140)

Main Body
Assassin (80)
Freeguild General (100)
- General
- Trait: Blood of the Twelve
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
20 x Freeguild Guard (160)
- Spears and Shields
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)
20 x Freeguild Guard (160)
- Spears and Shields

Rearguard
5 x Drakespawn Knights (170)

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Wounds: 85
 

[zilberfrid]

47 minutes ago, SentinelGuy said:

I haven't played a meeting engagement yet, but I've been thinking about the following list. Like you, I also tried to make a Tempest's Eye list, but the first turn buffs don't really help a great amount. I've reached the point where I think Hammerhal is the only good option for meeting engagements because the buffs are there all the time. Although the CoS list first appears really broad, I don't think it is in reality because there are units that always feature in every 2000 point list you see posted. They're essentially the crutch of CoS, and ME games don't let us use them to the best of their ability because of weird deployment options and limited points. In ME games I think you're probably better off just playing a basic Order list if you aren't playing Hammerhal. At least that way you can take units that don't appear in CoS and aren't held back by the 1 in 4 for Sylvaneth and Stormcast.

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Hammerhal
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Spearhead
Sorceress (90)
- Spell: Lore of Cinder - Wings of Fire (Hammerhal Wizard)
- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)
10 x Freeguild Crossbowmen (100)
10 x Black Guard (140)

Main Body
Assassin (80)
Freeguild General (100)
- General
- Trait: Blood of the Twelve
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
20 x Freeguild Guard (160)
- Spears and Shields
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)
20 x Freeguild Guard (160)
- Spears and Shields

Rearguard
5 x Drakespawn Knights (170)

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Wounds: 85
 

I really think you would have an easier time with another adjudant and rearguard. The sorceress needs to be within 3" of the general to generate points, so why not put the adjudant in the same body? As for the Drakespawn Knights: Their main claim to fame is durability, which may be wasted in the rearguard, they don't do enough damage to disperse what they can find within their movement, and are frankly badly costed units.

Perhaps replacing them with Shadow Warriors or Dark Riders (or Dark Riders and a scourge chariot if you want equal points) is a good idea?

The assassin is not there to provide battle line for Shadow Warriors and Dark Riders, what's his use case?

You have outfitted the guard with spears (shields are not on the warscroll, it's a bit odd in the warscroll builder, which also still has militia weapons), do you really think they are worth it? They seem a bit lackluster. Halberds get more killy, and swords shield is more tanky.

I like the crossbowmen in the vanguard, this helps put early pressure on the opponent.

I'd suggest something like this:

Spear:

Crossbowmen (they'll mostly be out of charge range until help arrives)

Main:

General (adjudant)

Sorceress (general)

20 Dreadspears (to provide +2 casting for sorceress)

20 sword shield Guard (retinue)

20 crossbowmen

Rear:

Dark Riders

This leaves 60 points for random upgrades. The Sorceress could, for instance, be a Knight Incantor (at which point the Dreadspears could also be downgraded to guards)

On 10/19/2019 at 10:20 AM, Lord Hightower said:

Hy fellow sigmarites,

As a Cities Player whose meta heavily focusses on ME I thougt about starting a topic to talk about lists and strategies for ME. A lot of people talk about strategies and lists for games with 2000 pts. for each of their cities in the city threads, but ME has a completely different approach since some of the new tactics relying on the AA (e.g. living city deepstrike or tempest eye movement and saves buff) as well as some of the stronger units in the new book (e.g. shadow warriors) simply do not work as good in ME as in a "normal" 2000 pts. pitched battles list, while other combinations of MSU or hammerhal-focused lists could be a better fit for such small games.

To start I want to discuss a tempest eye list:

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Spearhead
3 x Demigryph Knights (180)
- Lance and Sword

Main Body
Freeguild General (100)
- General
- Trait: Hawk-eyed
- Artefact: Patrician's Helm
Battlemage (90)
- Spell: Lore of Eagles - Aura of Glory (Tempest's Eye Wizard)
- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)
- Mortal Realm: Hysh
20 x Freeguild Crossbowmen (200)
20 x Freeguild Greatswords (320)
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)

Rearguard
5 x Freeguild Pistoliers (100)

Total: 990 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Wounds: 72
The idea is pretty simple: a fast and hard hitting unit in the spearhead for possible first round objective grab while also ready for some fighting. Strong main body fighting unit for hoding an objective with possible buffs from the heroes who generate CP whilst being supported from long range shooting. Small and fast unit of pistoliers in the rearguard for late game objective grabbing or some shooting and fighting with a few bodies if another objective is in imminent danger. 

But there are some things I am not quite happy:

I would prefer shadow warriors instead of pistoliers for late game objective grabbing but the variability of deployment in the different scenarios in combination with the shadow warriors deployment makes it quite hard to use them efficiently. I am also not quite sure about the city itself - the tempest Eye buff on saves and movement in the first round does not really help in ME, but the general-AA buff on movement could be viable. Same goes for the General's abilities - hawk eyed is nice, but when the crossbows stand still and get the hold-the-line it is pretty useless ^^ maybe hammerhal would be the better option.

How are your experiences with ME in with the new book? Which city offers the best AA for small games?

Thanks for the discussion and sorry for bad english 😉

I like the pistoleers in the rearguard, but I think Dark Riders would be a tad better, since they have a lot more range (if the fighting happens a bit more up the board). Maybe switching the roles of the General and Battlemage would be worth it, the General isn't as squishy as the mage, and the retinue really could do a lot here.

I really like the image of three demis marching in the spearhead, but am unsure whether they will have enough bodies to do much, perhaps someone else is better equipped to tell this.

If you want to make the most of Tempest's Eye, you'd want to use as much in the vang as you can manage, but that's not the only thing the city is good at.

[SentinelGuy]

Yeah spears are the weakest choice for freeguild, I'm using my old DoW/Empire army pikemen and I really don't want to buy any new models, so I'm stuck with spearmen. I've had a look at my old knights (metal Bretonnian errants) and I think I may be able to convert them to dark riders as I have some spare repeater crossbows.

[XReN]

I'll drop here my ME experience with Greywater:

 

[zilberfrid]

47 minutes ago, SentinelGuy said:

Yeah spears are the weakest choice for freeguild, I'm using my old DoW/Empire army pikemen and I really don't want to buy any new models, so I'm stuck with spearmen. I've had a look at my old knights (metal Bretonnian errants) and I think I may be able to convert them to dark riders as I have some spare repeater crossbows.

My Dark Riders will be using gatling guns that I have left from Handgunners and Pistoleers. This is a bit of a departion from the crossbows, but I don't really want to buy two sets of corsairs that I don't really have a use for. They are easily distinguished from Outriders by having Empire armoured horses with dark armour and gold trim, while the Outriders will be using Bretonnian cloth barded horses in brighter colours. My Pistoleers will be a mishmash of pistoleers and Glade riders with guns. I am a bit of a kitbasher.

As for the spears, if you have some axe blades, you could make the spears into halberds with a bit of finicking. This could also just be done with plasticard, or even old credit card style cards.

[Leksika]

Anvilgard list with fluffy theme choices. Fleetmaster rolls off the boat with a retinue and shooters, Sorceress arrives to spray suckers and direct chariots to kite. Kharibdyss squats objectives and ties up enemies. Burning skull buffs flagging units and burns through enemy blocks. Assassin turns up late-game to pick off hard to kill bodies and steal key objectives with Shadow Warriors (or doesn't deploy because it's clear we already lost, and better they survive to take the news home ).

I feel like organising the deployment phases is the hardest part of this style of game and especially finding the ideal moment for a combo like  SW/Assassins, so any thoughts, C&C welcome!

980 points total
Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
City: Anvilgard (Illicit Dealings: Black Market Bounty (extra artefact))

SPEARHEAD

Black Ark Fleetmaster (60) - General - Command Trait : Blackfang Crimelord - Artefact : Drakescale Cloak
10 x Sisters of the Watch (160)
20 x Black Ark Corsairs (160) - Vicious Blade & Repeater Handbow - City Role : Honoured Retinue

MAIN BODY

Sorceress (90) - Spell : Lore of Dark Sorcery - Vitriolic Spray (Anvilgard Wizard) - General's Adjutant
2 x Scourgerunner Chariots (120)
Kharibdyss (170) - Drakeblood Curse : Acidic Blood 

REARGUARD

Assassin (80) - Artefact : Venomfang Blade
10 x Shadow Warriors (110)

ENDLESS SPELL

The Burning Head (30)

[readercolin]

7 hours ago, Leksika said:

Anvilgard list with fluffy theme choices. Fleetmaster rolls off the boat with a retinue and shooters, Sorceress arrives to spray suckers and direct chariots to kite. Kharibdyss squats objectives and ties up enemies. Burning skull buffs flagging units and burns through enemy blocks. Assassin turns up late-game to pick off hard to kill bodies and steal key objectives with Shadow Warriors (or doesn't deploy because it's clear we already lost, and better they survive to take the news home ).

I feel like organising the deployment phases is the hardest part of this style of game and especially finding the ideal moment for a combo like  SW/Assassins, so any thoughts, C&C welcome!

980 points total
Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
City: Anvilgard (Illicit Dealings: Black Market Bounty (extra artefact))

SPEARHEAD

Black Ark Fleetmaster (60) - General - Command Trait : Blackfang Crimelord - Artefact : Drakescale Cloak
10 x Sisters of the Watch (160)
20 x Black Ark Corsairs (160) - Vicious Blade & Repeater Handbow - City Role : Honoured Retinue

MAIN BODY

Sorceress (90) - Spell : Lore of Dark Sorcery - Vitriolic Spray (Anvilgard Wizard) - General's Adjutant
2 x Scourgerunner Chariots (120)
Kharibdyss (170) - Drakeblood Curse : Acidic Blood 

REARGUARD

Assassin (80) - Artefact : Venomfang Blade
10 x Shadow Warriors (110)

ENDLESS SPELL

The Burning Head (30)

You need to break your corsairs up into 2 groups if you want to keep them in the spearhead.  Remember, no double size groups in the vanguard, double units only for battleline in the main body, and double units for anything in the rearguard.

[Leksika]

14 hours ago, readercolin said:

You need to break your corsairs up into 2 groups if you want to keep them in the spearhead.  Remember, no double size groups in the vanguard, double units only for battleline in the main body, and double units for anything in the rearguard.

Awesome, thanks for the catch!

[Eevika]

Just a pointer you can only fit 36 25mm bases in the 12" by 3" deployment zone so 2x20 dudes in the mainbody is a bad time

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Eevika said:

Just a pointer you can only fit 36 25mm bases in the 12" by 3" deployment zone so 2x20 dudes in the mainbody is a bad time

I didn't catch this from the ME rules, thanks! That is a tiny deployment zone, I'll have to look into that at home, because every list I've made wouldn't fit this rule.

[Eevika]

25 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I didn't catch this from the ME rules, thanks! That is a tiny deployment zone, I'll have to look into that at home, because every list I've made wouldn't fit this rule.

Definitely suprised me when I tried to play 40 grots

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Eevika said:

Definitely suprised me when I tried to play 40 grots

It sort of means that Cities and ME do not really mix, except with very specific lists. It's a really tight restriction for the main force. Maybe Shadow Warriors or Nimyard's Rough riders would be very useful, if they are not limited by this deployment zone. No idea how Living City works with deploying in the main army.

[readercolin]

34 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

It sort of means that Cities and ME do not really mix, except with very specific lists. It's a really tight restriction for the main force. Maybe Shadow Warriors or Nimyard's Rough riders would be very useful, if they are not limited by this deployment zone. No idea how Living City works with deploying in the main army.

Living city is easy (same with shadow warriors).  Say which forces are being deployed in "reserve" for each body.  For instance, lets say I have a block of 10 darkshards that I put in reserve.  If they are in the vanguard, then they don't deploy on the table and I can put them in following their normal rules on turn 1 (they enter at the end of the movement phase wherever I want following the rules for living city ambush/shadow warriors ambush).  If they are in the main body, then they don't deploy to the board at the end of turn 1, and instead I can put them on the table at the end of the movement phase starting on turn 2.  If they are rearguard, then the exact same thing, but they deploy at the end of the movement phase starting on turn 3.  If the battleplan has the various forces coming in a different order, then just swap main body/rearguard/vanguard with whatever order the battleplan requests.

Also, remember - meeting engagements only have a requirement for a single unit of battleline.  Feel free to take advantage of this to your hearts content.

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, readercolin said:

Living city is easy (same with shadow warriors).  Say which forces are being deployed in "reserve" for each body.  For instance, lets say I have a block of 10 darkshards that I put in reserve.  If they are in the vanguard, then they don't deploy on the table and I can put them in following their normal rules on turn 1 (they enter at the end of the movement phase wherever I want following the rules for living city ambush/shadow warriors ambush).  If they are in the main body, then they don't deploy to the board at the end of turn 1, and instead I can put them on the table at the end of the movement phase starting on turn 2.  If they are rearguard, then the exact same thing, but they deploy at the end of the movement phase starting on turn 3.  If the battleplan has the various forces coming in a different order, then just swap main body/rearguard/vanguard with whatever order the battleplan requests.

Also, remember - meeting engagements only have a requirement for a single unit of battleline.  Feel free to take advantage of this to your hearts content.

Battleline isn't exactly very challenging to meet with Freeguild. I have 2k lists with 8 battleline units. I have very few units that aren't hero or battleline.

Living city seems about the only option to field an army for me in ME, except of course the silly Gotrek+Amber wizard list.

[zilberfrid]

5 hours ago, readercolin said:

Living city is easy (same with shadow warriors).  Say which forces are being deployed in "reserve" for each body.  For instance, lets say I have a block of 10 darkshards that I put in reserve.  If they are in the vanguard, then they don't deploy on the table and I can put them in following their normal rules on turn 1 (they enter at the end of the movement phase wherever I want following the rules for living city ambush/shadow warriors ambush).  If they are in the main body, then they don't deploy to the board at the end of turn 1, and instead I can put them on the table at the end of the movement phase starting on turn 2.  If they are rearguard, then the exact same thing, but they deploy at the end of the movement phase starting on turn 3.  If the battleplan has the various forces coming in a different order, then just swap main body/rearguard/vanguard with whatever order the battleplan requests.

Also, remember - meeting engagements only have a requirement for a single unit of battleline.  Feel free to take advantage of this to your hearts content.

I have read a bit, and watched a few battleplans. Worst case is 10*3", if the board is the shortest possible. Longest on those battleplans would be 11.5 (death pass, rearguard action).

Not that Changing priorities is much better, at 15- 18*3.

The Borderline, The Raid and The Centre Ground seem decently sized though (20*3 at the smallest, 36*3 at the largest).

That is awfully small. Someone must really hate painting miniatures.

Edited November 14, 2019 by zilberfrid

[Lord Hightower]

Hey, had my first ME Battle today and had a pretty hard time against my opponents anvilgard ^^

 

I played a list similar to the one I posted before, but I had to change my unit-sizes because of the deployment issue you guys named (there is only place for about 35 infantry guys, so no 20 and 20 units...)

 

List looked like that:

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Spearhead
5 x Freeguild Pistoliers (100)
10 x Freeguild Greatswords (160)

Main Body
Freeguild General (100)
- Artefact: Patrician's Helm
- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)
Battlemage (90)
- General
- Trait: Hawk-eyed
- Spell: Lore of Eagles - Aura of Glory (Tempest's Eye Wizard)
- Mortal Realm: Hysh
20 x Freeguild Crossbowmen (200)
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)
10 x Freeguild Greatswords (160)

Rearguard
3 x Demigryph Knights (180)
- Lance and Sword

Total: 990 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Wounds: 72
 

Tried Tempests Eye because of the movement bonus and because it really helps the shooting units getting in threat range with the normal movement and running and also being able to shoot  - crossbowmen are pretty good in my opion in this case - just deploy them, move forward 5+W6+1 (in first round even +3) to a good spot and shoot with the TE ability and then stand still and hail down those arrows with support of the FG general or the tempest eye generals'ability hawk eye   😉

I had bad luck with the mission, but tried my best. I found it pretty hard to play with my Freeguild guys, because their strength is their synergies that occur while keeping the squads together to help each other, which is pretty hard in a setup like ME where everything is split up.

Another main problem was that even with TE my greatswords were too slow.

I will try again next time with a faster list (maybe griffongeneral or more cav)

 

[Evantas]

Just to weigh in on a few things I've noticed:

City Selection

Generally the 2k meta seems to revolve around Hallowheart and Tempest's Eye.

But for ME format :

- Tempest's Eye seems not so great a selection, as Turn 1 for ME matters far less than the 2k pitched battle format.

- Hallowheart could work, I've yet to field it.

I think Hammerhal could be useful as the CA fight again matters more for small skirmishes. 

Units

Celestial Hurricanium seems weaker in the 1k format, due to less units being buffed? Taking largely independent units like Demigryphs seems to be a better idea. 

Generally, unless you are contesting objectives in terms of unit sizes, quality and mobility of troops tends to trump quantity. So I think you get more mileage out of Demigryphs far more than Freeguild Guard. 

These are my comments though, anyone have similar experiences?