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Tempest Eye Discussion

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13 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

How good do people think the Gunhaulers would be in the batallion? Retreating and shooting sounds like a good thing, but I am unsure how it will work out.

Regardless of how I like their concept, I'd probably only consider them in a list designed for lowest possible number of drops, where putting as much as possible into a battalion is a perk. They are a bit too unreliable to build a tactic around them. But, still, not tested, might actualy be better than they look on paper.

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8 minutes ago, dekay said:

Regardless of how I like their concept, I'd probably only consider them in a list designed for lowest possible number of drops, where putting as much as possible into a battalion is a perk. They are a bit too unreliable to build a tactic around them. But, still, not tested, might actualy be better than they look on paper.

They do seem a bit better in melee than other things, with their bombs dissuading charging and their 5.5 4/4 attacks, and rend -3 is a bit hard to get to.

Edited by zilberfrid

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14 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

How good do people think the Gunhaulers would be in the batallion? Retreating and shooting sounds like a good thing, but I am unsure how it will work out.

Drill Cannons with Hawk-eyed (and a flying Lord-Ordinator for good measure?) wounding on 2s and exploding on 5s could be worse.

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Kharadron aren't a competitive army, at all, in the tournament scene. Their one thing is they're not bad at shooting, but they're not terribly cost effective, and really struggle against horde and 'activation wars' melee. Take them because you like the models and the fun of it, in games which aren't cutthroat tournament training. They're not bad, particularly in CoS which can mitigate some of their weaknesses; it's just they're not outrageously filthy good which is a requirement for maximised efficiency.

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8 minutes ago, Arkhanist said:

Kharadron aren't a competitive army, at all, in the tournament scene. Their one thing is they're not bad at shooting, but they're not terribly cost effective, and really struggle against horde and 'activation wars' melee. Take them because you like the models and the fun of it, in games which aren't cutthroat tournament training. They're not bad, particularly in CoS which can mitigate some of their weaknesses; it's just they're not outrageously filthy good which is a requirement for maximised efficiency.

Well, CoS units can be quite good against hordes, and do have some activation wars stuff (as do the Gunhaulers, triggering after the charge, so before the fight certainly preempts activation wars).

My current thought was just to get the Underworlds warband, and see whether I like them enough. In any case, I'd need an Aether Chemist, and this is the cheapest way to get one, with bonus troops to boot!

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I’d love to get some KO stuff into my army as well. The one that really aesthetically catches my eye is the Frigate so I was looking at that and 10 Arkanauts just to float off and grab an objective shooting as they go.

 

Looked at the Warscroll for the Frigate though and…. It’s pretty tame isn’t it? Am I missing something? For 200 points I’d want it to be doing more damage than it seems capable of.

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2 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

If you're unsure, I won't purchase it for a "maybe it will work". I may end up buying a few Kharadron troops because I like their style, but I'll start with the Underworlds warband to investigate further.

Sounds fair to me. Haha you can borrow mine to try it out because it’s been gathering dust since I got past 1K in points.  but as is I would advice against purchasing it Without trying it first. 

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23 minutes ago, NatBrannigan said:

I’d love to get some KO stuff into my army as well. The one that really aesthetically catches my eye is the Frigate so I was looking at that and 10 Arkanauts just to float off and grab an objective shooting as they go.

 

Looked at the Warscroll for the Frigate though and…. It’s pretty tame isn’t it? Am I missing something? For 200 points I’d want it to be doing more damage than it seems capable of.

No it is tame. But within the KO allegiance abilities you get to stuff it full with thunderers (would advice them over arkanauts) and deep strike them turn one. That’s where the value is in my mind. 
definitely not damage output. 

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4 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Sounds fair to me. Haha you can borrow mine to try it out because it’s been gathering dust since I got past 1K in points.  but as is I would advice against purchasing it Without trying it first. 

I'm fine, my list is quite crowded already. Was just interested in how it worked because it was in the batallion.

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4 minutes ago, Kramer said:

No it is tame. But within the KO allegiance abilities you get to stuff it full with thunderers (would advice them over arkanauts) and deep strike them turn one. That’s where the value is in my mind. 
definitely not damage output. 

Not worth it in a Tempest army then you would say? It's a shame because it's a Gorgeous model!

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Hi guys,

 

thought about a Tempest´s Eye army based on some steamtanks as well as Endrinriggers.

Which characters support these two units? I know that a Khemist is a good support for Kharadron units, but he is almost as expensive than 3 additional Endrinriggers...

What other units should I take into consideration to round out the force?

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1 hour ago, NatBrannigan said:

Not worth it in a Tempest army then you would say? It's a shame because it's a Gorgeous model!

Didn’t say that. But if you take it the transport abilities should be part of the reason because For damage output alone is way too expensive. You could take it with thunderers/arkanauts move forward, set up a crossfire. But remember disembarking happens at the start of your hero phase. So you lose utility of the embarked unit for a turn. It’s a tough sell if you want to compete big. Rule of cool it absolutely wins. 
Endrinriggers/skywardens would be a better bet if you think they look cool. 

1 hour ago, Hannibal said:

Hi guys,

 

thought about a Tempest´s Eye army based on some steamtanks as well as Endrinriggers.

Which characters support these two units? I know that a Khemist is a good support for Kharadron units, but he is almost as expensive than 3 additional Endrinriggers...

What other units should I take into consideration to round out the force?

Endrinmaster are very good but without and endrinriggers you could (almost) also get 9 skywardens vs 6 endrinriggers. Which work better unsupported. But I’m taking them in my tempest list as well. Still undecided o skywardens vs endrinriggers. 

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46 minutes ago, Hannibal said:

Hi guys,

 

thought about a Tempest´s Eye army based on some steamtanks as well as Endrinriggers.

Which characters support these two units? I know that a Khemist is a good support for Kharadron units, but he is almost as expensive than 3 additional Endrinriggers...

What other units should I take into consideration to round out the force?

Well, Steam tanks want engineers, so get one of those.

What I gathered, Edrinriggers with mixed weapons don't rely on the Khemist as much.

Get a front line, dwarves would fit nicely, but freeguild guard also works.

Having a bit of gunline doesn't hurt, I would really recommend that.

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So i have rolling some dice the past 30 minutes to see the difference between:

Group a: Khemist + 20 Gunstock Thunderers

Group b: Runelord + 20 irondrakes

 

In both cases the Hero has Hawk Eye command trait. 
Some theory:

Buffed by the khemist, the Thunderers get 3 shots at 3+/2+/-1/1, at 18" while able to move. Furhter enhanced by Rapid Redeployment Command ability, to also run and shoot! In Tempest Eye, this means at minimum: 7" move + D6 + 1" Run + 18" shooting range, for a minimum threat range of 27". Add Cogs and we sit at minimum 29". If you take the Bridge endless spell you extend this by another 24".  This gives Thunderers enormous value to move up and delete a unit around a middle objective.

Group B has the benefit of the torpedo and additional rend from the Runelord. The unit is ovarall also 110 points cheaper, which can accomodate some longbeards to re-roll 1's to wound! ( i did not take that into account in the following observations). The biggest downside is that they need to stand still to get their 2 shots. However, this group does have a 2+ save against shooting on the first turn!

 

Scenario: Move up the board and shoot at a 10 man sequitor/liberator (2 wounds 4+ save, re-rolling 1's) unit. Because of the law of averages, i did the scenario 4 times for each of the groups.

Observations

Group A: Pretty much deleted the unit of sequitors each time. 62 shots at,  3+ to hit, 3+ to wound is really deadly, and the khemist can add an additional 3d6 shots to that once he gets in range.  In each of the 4 rounds i noticed that a lot of the saves were made. I can imagine that anything with a 5+ save or worse will just be evaporated without second thought, and that is after the movement of the unit!

Group B with moving: With moving, the unit killed 5-6 sequitors every round. The rend at -2 means only saving on 6's, and the torpedo flat out ignores the save! T

Group B without moving: This unit wiped out the sequitor unit with ease, and still had 3-6 wounds spare after shooting.

For fun:

I wanted to see if a Group B becomes better with a Hurricanum, and i was rather dissapointed. For 220 points, i only got like 1-2 extra hits. Now, if you get your hurricanum to also buff other units, it becomes worth more, and is worth more also with more shots (i.e, Group B standing still, but Group B already annhilates heavily armoured units at that point...).

Conclusion:
Irondrakes are better than thunderers IF standing still OR shooting at units with a 3+ save or better. 

Thunderers are better than irondrakes if the unit is required to move, or against weak hordes with a 5+ save or worse.

 

Disclaimer: 

There is no math here, just dice rolling. I did attempt to account for the Rule of Averages by doing each scenario multiple times, and i do not feel the dice were overall against me, or in my favour.

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7 minutes ago, Knight of Ruin said:

So i have rolling some dice the past 30 minutes to see the difference between:

Group a: Khemist + 20 Gunstock Thunderers

Group b: Runelord + 20 irondrakes

 

In both cases the Hero has Hawk Eye command trait. 
Some theory:

Buffed by the khemist, the Thunderers get 3 shots at 3+/2+/-1/1, at 18" while able to move. Furhter enhanced by Rapid Redeployment Command ability, to also run and shoot! In Tempest Eye, this means at minimum: 7" move + D6 + 1" Run + 18" shooting range, for a minimum threat range of 27". Add Cogs and we sit at minimum 29". If you take the Bridge endless spell you extend this by another 24".  This gives Thunderers enormous value to move up and delete a unit around a middle objective.

Group B has the benefit of the torpedo and additional rend from the Runelord. The unit is ovarall also 110 points cheaper, which can accomodate some longbeards to re-roll 1's to wound! ( i did not take that into account in the following observations). The biggest downside is that they need to stand still to get their 2 shots. However, this group does have a 2+ save against shooting on the first turn!

 

Scenario: Move up the board and shoot at a 10 man sequitor/liberator (2 wounds 4+ save, re-rolling 1's) unit. Because of the law of averages, i did the scenario 4 times for each of the groups.

Observations

Group A: Pretty much deleted the unit of sequitors each time. 62 shots at,  3+ to hit, 3+ to wound is really deadly, and the khemist can add an additional 3d6 shots to that once he gets in range.  In each of the 4 rounds i noticed that a lot of the saves were made. I can imagine that anything with a 5+ save or worse will just be evaporated without second thought, and that is after the movement of the unit!

Group B with moving: With moving, the unit killed 5-6 sequitors every round. The rend at -2 means only saving on 6's, and the torpedo flat out ignores the save! T

Group B without moving: This unit wiped out the sequitor unit with ease, and still had 3-6 wounds spare after shooting.

For fun:

I wanted to see if a Group B becomes better with a Hurricanum, and i was rather dissapointed. For 220 points, i only got like 1-2 extra hits. Now, if you get your hurricanum to also buff other units, it becomes worth more, and is worth more also with more shots (i.e, Group B standing still, but Group B already annhilates heavily armoured units at that point...).

Conclusion:
Irondrakes are better than thunderers IF standing still OR shooting at units with a 3+ save or better. 

Thunderers are better than irondrakes if the unit is required to move, or against weak hordes with a 5+ save or worse.

 

Disclaimer: 

There is no math here, just dice rolling. I did attempt to account for the Rule of Averages by doing each scenario multiple times, and i do not feel the dice were overall against me, or in my favour.

Pretty cool, makes me want to take both to fill different niches (though I'd run out of points fast). Personally I'm thinking of running Irondrakes in 10 man units to max out on Torpedoes. They're basically 20inch cannon shots.

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On 10/12/2019 at 4:56 PM, dekay said:

Is this ridiculous? Yes.

Is this a 3 drop alpha strike monstrosity? Also yes.

Everything either flies, is extremely fast or both. Keeping close together, most units can be kept under +1 hit/+1 wound bubble. Almost everything can retreat and charge. I honestly wonder if it could work, relying on going first and eliminating as many buffing units as possible and charging into things relying on charge to do damage.

Quicksilver swords are here for mortal wound output, maelstorm because it's 10 points.

Do I love this idea? Yes.

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5 hours ago, Knight of Ruin said:

So i have rolling some dice the past 30 minutes to see the difference between:

Group a: Khemist + 20 Gunstock Thunderers

Group b: Runelord + 20 irondrakes

 

In both cases the Hero has Hawk Eye command trait. 
Some theory:

Buffed by the khemist, the Thunderers get 3 shots at 3+/2+/-1/1, at 18" while able to move. Furhter enhanced by Rapid Redeployment Command ability, to also run and shoot! In Tempest Eye, this means at minimum: 7" move + D6 + 1" Run + 18" shooting range, for a minimum threat range of 27". Add Cogs and we sit at minimum 29". If you take the Bridge endless spell you extend this by another 24".  This gives Thunderers enormous value to move up and delete a unit around a middle objective.

Group B has the benefit of the torpedo and additional rend from the Runelord. The unit is ovarall also 110 points cheaper, which can accomodate some longbeards to re-roll 1's to wound! ( i did not take that into account in the following observations). The biggest downside is that they need to stand still to get their 2 shots. However, this group does have a 2+ save against shooting on the first turn!

How are you getting your Thunderers to wound on 2+? They normally wound on 4+ and Hawk-eyed only adds 1 to that roll.

It's also worth noting that the Runelords rend prayer stacks, so that extra 110 points could be another Runelord for another +1 Rend on the Irondrakes.

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5 hours ago, Knight of Ruin said:

Conclusion:
Irondrakes are better than thunderers IF standing still OR shooting at units with a 3+ save or better. 

Thunderers are better than irondrakes if the unit is required to move, or against weak hordes with a 5+ save or worse.

 

Disclaimer: 

There is no math here, just dice rolling. I did attempt to account for the Rule of Averages by doing each scenario multiple times, and i do not feel the dice were overall against me, or in my favour.

Irondrakes firing twice are definitely nasty, particularly when buffed up. You suggest the soulscream bridge for the thunderers, but it helps the irondrakes even more as they don't count as moving - which means plonk them 24" up the table (more really, since they can be wholly within 6" of each end) and fire twice. Give em a chaff screen and a runelord, and they should definitely give your opponent a headache as they should be able to just sit there and blaze away. Make the chaff screen longbeards for extra beardiness :)

You could use a sorceress and a sacrifice from a unit of darkshards to get a +2 on the bridge cast, and then they can also run up and fire twice (or use the bridge) to supplement the irondrakes against weaker units, or use something like bleakswords as the chaff screen.

Alternative a hurricanum to help buff everything in the middle table with +1 to hit and +1 to cast on the bridge for a battlemage; and outriders or thunderers to take advantage of it too with some flexibility of movement.

I do love that there's so many choices!

 

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35 minutes ago, PJetski said:

How are you getting your Thunderers to wound on 2+? They normally wound on 4+ and Hawk-eyed only adds 1 to that roll.

It's also worth noting that the Runelords rend prayer stacks, so that extra 110 points could be another Runelord for another +1 Rend on the Irondrakes.

I either typed it wrong or i also rolled wrong. I will re-roll the thunderer scenario tomorrow.

Not sure about the use of double runelords for the same unit. Sure makes the irondrakes melt anything with armour, but they are already doing that. I did play with a runelord on my hammerers, and a runelord on the irondrakes, for -2 rend in all the places :)

 

24 minutes ago, Arkhanist said:

Irondrakes firing twice are definitely nasty, particularly when buffed up. You suggest the soulscream bridge for the thunderers, but it helps the irondrakes even more as they don't count as moving - which means plonk them 24" up the table (more really, since they can be wholly within 6" of each end) and fire twice. Give em a chaff screen and a runelord, and they should definitely give your opponent a headache as they should be able to just sit there and blaze away. Make the chaff screen longbeards for extra beardiness :)

You could use a sorceress and a sacrifice from a unit of darkshards to get a +2 on the bridge cast, and then they can also run up and fire twice (or use the bridge) to supplement the irondrakes against weaker units, or use something like bleakswords as the chaff screen.

Alternative a hurricanum to help buff everything in the middle table with +1 to hit and +1 to cast on the bridge for a battlemage; and outriders or thunderers to take advantage of it too with some flexibility of movement.

I do love that there's so many choices!

 

You are right. I had assumed that the bridge counts as a move for the turn, thus counting as moved. I will give this some more thought.

 

That said for now i have mostly been playing with cogs, as i can move up across the whole board, and it also affects gotrek if i want to bring him.  So far i am planning on atleast a unit of hammerers and a unit of irondrakes/thunderers. If they both go over the bridge they are both near the same spot on the battlefield, maybe too many points in one space? 

 

Edited by Knight of Ruin

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@Knight of Ruin not sure why you aren't using expected values.

20 Grundstok Thunderers and an Aether Khemist cost 500 points and deal an average of 20.67 rend 1 damage per turn of shooting.

30 Irondrakes cost 450 points and deal an average of 12.89 rend 1 damage and either .89 or 1.56 rend 2 damage (depending on if you are shooting a monster) per turn if moving, and double that if standing still.

If we just count it all as rend 1 and assume you don't have a monster to shoot at for simplicity's sake, that's .0612 rend 1 damage per point standing still or .0306 rend 1 damage per point moving for the Irondrakes, and .0413 rend 1 damage per point for the thunderers. 

On the defense side, you're getting .05 4+ save wounds per point from the thunderers+khemist and .067 4+ save wounds per point from the Irondrakes, plus an extra point of save vs shooting.

The Irondrakes can also benefit from more buffs (Longbeards, Runelord) as you mentioned. 

Overall Grundstok Thunderers + Aether Khemist are better if you plan to be moving around a lot, don't care about the extra drop and don't mind the poorer defense. Irondrakes are better as a stable firebase or if you plan on taking other units that will buff them.

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@swarmofseals

That is pretty much what i said. But as i also said in my disclaimer: not using math. I was just rolling dice.

 

And as mentioned in my previous post, i need to do the thunderer scenario over to make sure i used the right values.

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How about 40 Arkanauts buffed by Hawk-eyed (+1 wound), Hurricanum (+1 hit), and a Khemist (+1 attack)? That's 24 Skyhooks at 3+/2+/-2/D3 (with +1 hit against HERO/MONSTER).

When the enemy gets closer you switch to buffing Pistols and unleash 12 Skyhooks and 84 pistol shots at 3+/3+.

They cost 480 for the squad (+140 for the Khemist), but they're also battleline.

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6 minutes ago, Knight of Ruin said:

@swarmofseals

That is pretty much what i said. But as i also said in my disclaimer: not using math. I was just rolling dice.

 

And as mentioned in my previous post, i need to do the thunderer scenario over to make sure i used the right values.

Right, I'm just not sure why you wouldn't just do the math when rolling the dice takes longer and is less accurate XD

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3 minutes ago, PJetski said:

How about 40 Arkanauts buffed by Hawk-eyed (+1 wound), Hurricanum (+1 hit), and a Khemist (+1 attack)? That's 24 Skyhooks at 3+/2+/-2/D3 (with +1 hit against HERO/MONSTER).

When the enemy gets closer you switch to buffing Pistols and unleash 12 Skyhooks and 84 pistol shots at 3+/3+.

They cost 480 for the squad (+140 for the Khemist), but they're also battleline.

With just the skyhooks shooting the WDR is .0922 against a normal target and .1152 against a hero/monster. That's competitive with all of the other shooting options (crossbows/handgunners/Irondrakes/Sisters of the Watch), but that's a bit deceptive given that it doesn't factor in the cost of the Khemist, who basically does nothing except buff this unit. Hawk-eyed and Hurricanum are both fine as they can buff multiple units. If you add in the cost of the Khemist it drops to .0714/.0892

Irondrakes without a caddy buffer are .0647/.129 vs non monster and .0685/.137 vs monster depending on if moving or not.  So factoring in the cost of the Khemist the Arkanaut Company is still a bit better on the move, but the Irondrakes are a lot better if they can be stationary.

That said, things change a bit if you can get in range of the pistols.  With the pistols you're at .0959 against a regular target or .1199 against a hero/monster. Now the Arkanaut Company is clearly better when moving, but the Irondrakes still beat them out by a margin when stationary.

 

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21 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

Right, I'm just not sure why you wouldn't just do the math when rolling the dice takes longer and is less accurate XD

But more like how the game plays?

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