Tempest Eye Discussion

[dekay]

It's worth reminding that in firepower alone, buffed darkshards outperform, point for point, all of previously mentioned except arkanauts. Well, arkanauts too, unless they're unless in pistol range. And they're cheaper both by themselves and to fully buff. For firepower you technically need just a hurricanum (with hawk-eyed) and knight azyros. Add sorceress if you want mobility as well, it's still cheaper then arkanauts. Arkanauts require a khemist, hurricanum and azyros for optimal performance. 

It gets even more visible if you double the numbers - you could, with some bunching up, fit 80 darkshards under hurricanum's double aura, while arkanauts would require a second khemist at this point. Is it worth it to take 80 of either? Likely not, but it's worth mentioning ; )
Yes, I will defend darkshards with all my honour, they might be the best shooting unit we have.
 

50 minutes ago, Televiper11 said:

But more like how the game plays?

You can't plan based on that, though. Not reliably anyway - even in repeated tests you can get very unlikely results, while statistics are the most reliable tool we have. I understand the need to roll it out in practice, I do that too sometimes ; )

[swarmofseals]

19 minutes ago, dekay said:

It's worth reminding that in firepower alone, buffed darkshards outperform, point for point, all of previously mentioned except arkanauts.

Darkshards with a hurricanum and hawkeyed have a WDR of .1111, which is better than Irondrakes while moving but worse while stationary. Irondrakes also get a lot better if you have Longbeards, which are a great screen that you might want to take anyway.

Handgunners have a WDR of .0954 with just the General buff, no need for hawkeyed or hurricanum (although you get the same effect without the general and with hawkeyed + hurricanum).

Crossbows have a WDR of .1389, but that does require the general. Without the general it's .112.

Sisters of the Watch have a WDR of .127, and they can get that with either Hurricanum or a Nomad Prince. 

You're absolutely right that Darkshards are the most offensively efficient option when moving, but they get beat out by Crossbows, Irondrakes, and Sisters of the Watch when stationary. Handgunners get beaten by all of these options, but they are also the least dependent on buffs.  They (and Sisters of the Watch) also benefit from stand and shoot.

I think if you are running a Soulscream bridge build then Darkshards are probably not the way to go, but if you aren't planning to bridge then they might be the best option.

[Knight of Ruin]

2 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Right, I'm just not sure why you wouldn't just do the math when rolling the dice takes longer and is less accurate XD

I agree that math is more reliable and something i consider too.

 

But just rolling out gives me a feel what to expect when i actually play. That is why i roll several scenarios multiples times. Law of averages will dictate that after a few times i will have seen outliers in my favour, against me, and a few average showing.

 

Regarding other shooters. I have not looked at any others because i want a duarding style force. I'm open to units i cant get as dwarf, like wizards, but i can get shooty units so dwarf shooty unit it is

 

 

[dekay]

In general, yes, I agree. Hard to argue with numbers.
However - to count bonuses for standing still into this equation, we assume the unit is shooting in range that can be easily moved, ran, and charged through (damn, some things in this game have insane speed). Those units have 16-24 range. In case of crossbowmen it might be a bit of a challenge, but charging irondrakes without giving them a chance to shoot is not particularily hard. Sisters will get their reaction shot at least, so they get a bit of a pass here ; )

So, if they get an opportunity to fire its either because they're screened (thus we need to factor the cost of the screen in), opponent made a mistake (and that's not something we can count on) or, as you said, we're using the bridge - which can just fail, leaving huge chunk of our force either useless or, at best, forced to lose their bonuses and move. And it hinges on one casting roll. I'm personally not willing to bet effectiveness of 500+ points of my force on a single roll.
 

22 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

I think if you are running a Soulscream bridge build then Darkshards are probably not the way to go, but if you aren't planning to bridge then they might be the best option.

And, because I don't trust the bridge, I'd go darkshards route ; ) Darkshards are solid. They will move, get in range and shoot. Might burn some CP to make that move further. There's not much enemy can do about it, and it can't really fail (same with arkanaut skyhooks with similar results) .

 

5 minutes ago, Knight of Ruin said:

Regarding other shooters. I have not looked at any others because i want a duarding style force. I'm open to units i cant get as dwarf, like wizards, but i can get shooty units so dwarf shooty unit it is

Skyhooks are great and arkanaut horde will be your friend then ; ). Or, if you're a gambling man - soulscream bridge shenanigans ; )

[swarmofseals]

The build that I get stuck on is something like this:

 

Hurricanum with battlemage (280)

Runelord (general: hawkeye, artefact: crown of the patricians) (90)

30 Longbeards (shields) (270)

30 Irondrakes (450)

30 Irondrakes (450)

20 Irondrakes (retinue) (300)

Endless Spells: soulscream bridge

Extra Command Point

 

It feels bad not taking an adjutant, but this build isn't very CP hungry anyway and I think keeping the drops as low as possible is important.

Outside of a few specific matchup and battleplan combinations I don't really see how you are supposed to beat this army. The amount of damage that it deals on average is unreal. If you fail to cast bridge and you need to move to get in range you still do a really heavy amount of damage (6 mw, 1.62 r3, 26.74 r2, 38.88 r1), and the 3" bonus from Tempest Eye means your opponent is going to have a hard time keeping away. And you get all that while screening your army behind 30 wounds of 2+ save on the first turn, with a CP available to give reroll 1's to save if your opponent takes the first turn and alpha strikes. Even if your opponent is heavy shooting, all of your shooting also has a 2+ save on the first turn against missile attacks. 

Maybe Changehost would beat this with crazy mortal wound spam?

 

[Arkhanist]

6 hours ago, dekay said:

In general, yes, I agree. Hard to argue with numbers.
However - to count bonuses for standing still into this equation, we assume the unit is shooting in range that can be easily moved, ran, and charged through (damn, some things in this game have insane speed). Those units have 16-24 range. In case of crossbowmen it might be a bit of a challenge, but charging irondrakes without giving them a chance to shoot is not particularily hard. Sisters will get their reaction shot at least, so they get a bit of a pass here ; )

So, if they get an opportunity to fire its either because they're screened (thus we need to factor the cost of the screen in), opponent made a mistake (and that's not something we can count on) or, as you said, we're using the bridge - which can just fail, leaving huge chunk of our force either useless or, at best, forced to lose their bonuses and move. And it hinges on one casting roll. I'm personally not willing to bet effectiveness of 500+ points of my force on a single roll.
 

And, because I don't trust the bridge, I'd go darkshards route ; ) Darkshards are solid. They will move, get in range and shoot. Might burn some CP to make that move further. There's not much enemy can do about it, and it can't really fail (same with arkanaut skyhooks with similar results) .

 

Skyhooks are great and arkanaut horde will be your friend then ; ). Or, if you're a gambling man - soulscream bridge shenanigans ; )

A big factor for me is I already have 30 irondrakes and as many old warriors I can greenstuff into longbeards as I could possibly want, ironbreakers, hammerers, plus some old empire 1st gen plastics (with metal arms!) which I can convert; while I don't have any elves at all

So it's a case of making what I have work with some additions more than anything else -an entire new CoS infantry army ain't cheap!

Dark shards are a very useful unit for flexible firepower on the move, no doubt at all, and quite possibly the best unit for that in the book (though I do think pistoliers in the battallion given them a run for their money). But to be fair I think all decent sized missile units want a screen now, as there are armies that will get across the board turn 1 in numbers. And given we're a relatively high drop army due to lack of battalions, it's not going to always be about us pushing up to hit them, but weathering the alpha strike.

As you say, the bridge is a risk. but I see it as more of a bonus if you can pull it off; irondrakes can push up hard too on foot, if not as efficiently that 1st turn. That 2+ against shooting on 1st turn also makes them a tough unit to get rid of in one round.

What's really nice is that multiple approaches look viable; just in tempest's eye, we're seeing gotrek + old school dwarves, infantry elf heavy, freeguild gunline, monster mash, cavalry for days...

 

[dekay]

2 hours ago, Arkhanist said:

What's really nice is that multiple approaches look viable; just in tempest's eye, we're seeing gotrek + old school dwarves, infantry elf heavy, freeguild gunline, monster mash, cavalry for days...

And here we absolutly agree. We can argue about unit effectiveness and viability of different army compositions, but the truth is - those are all incredibly efficient units (well except drakespawn. drakespawn are terrible :D) and the differences in their effectiveness are miniscule. And, what is great about this book, it reflects fluff perfectly by making dwarves, elves and men work torgether while arguing about their superiority all the way

[kore5022]

2 hours ago, Arkhanist said:

What's really nice is that multiple approaches look viable; just in tempest's eye, we're seeing gotrek + old school dwarves, infantry elf heavy, freeguild gunline, monster mash, cavalry for days...

 

Does gotrek get the +3" move on first turn ?

[zilberfrid]

2 minutes ago, kore5022 said:

Does gotrek get the +3" move on first turn ?

No, he doesn't.

[dekay]

Idea:

Black ark corsairs with two melee weapons get +2 attacks from the fleetmaster. It can be increased by further +2 with aura of glory, giving them 6 attacks each. *bad* attacks, but, well, still. I have a feeling that, combined with their very low cost, this can make them useful. It's a cheap screen, but left alone they suddenly start throwing around buckets of dice. And they get 3+ against shooting in the first round, making clearing them out not particularily cost effective.

Has anyone thought of this or tested them in practice?

[Kramer]

20 minutes ago, dekay said:

Idea:

Black ark corsairs with two melee weapons get +2 attacks from the fleetmaster. It can be increased by further +2 with aura of glory, giving them 6 attacks each. *bad* attacks, but, well, still. I have a feeling that, combined with their very low cost, this can make them useful. It's a cheap screen, but left alone they suddenly start throwing around buckets of dice. And they get 3+ against shooting in the first round, making clearing them out not particularily cost effective.

Has anyone thought of this or tested them in practice?

Yeah had the same thought. It also applies to shooting and I was looking for something to either up the hits or wounds but haven’t found it yet. It’s just so dependent on support characters. 
but it is a fun way to finally unite my old dark elves again. 

[dekay]

2 minutes ago, Kramer said:

something to either up the hits or wounds

Hurricanum and Azyros for hits, Hawk Eyed for wounds (shooting only). Sadly, both fleetmaster and aura of glory work on melee attacks only.

[Gwendar]

4 hours ago, dekay said:

Idea:

Black ark corsairs with two melee weapons get +2 attacks from the fleetmaster. It can be increased by further +2 with aura of glory, giving them 6 attacks each. *bad* attacks, but, well, still. I have a feeling that, combined with their very low cost, this can make them useful. It's a cheap screen, but left alone they suddenly start throwing around buckets of dice. And they get 3+ against shooting in the first round, making clearing them out not particularily cost effective.

Has anyone thought of this or tested them in practice?

I've seen the suggestion floating around a bit. With that setup, you essentially have 'pseudo-Plague Monks' and run them in the same manner, mostly.

Using only 'mathhammer' math because I haven't the time or desire to properly math it out, they can get some great damage out. Assuming the mentioned buffs (their inherent +1 to hit, an Azyros and a Hurricanum) and only getting, say, 20 out of 40 of them into combat... you could be looking at ~48 damage in melee alone vs a 4+ save. Maybe ~20 from shooting if you get all 40 in range with the same buffs. Again, going by an app so if someone wants to (or already has) calculated it better then that would be great.

So yeah, I think they could definitely see some playtime and I would heavily consider them. Problem is that they don't benefit from a Sorceress so no run + shoot + charge for them so a lot of people would rather take Black Guard, Executioners or Darkshards for a more T1 alpha strike like I had in mind before the Pistolier build.

[dekay]

Alright, so, calculations (which, as usual, might be wrong ; )):

At first glance it looks like handbow corsairs perform better. However, I'm not entirely convinced. Let's look at the numbers for a 40 strong corsair unit with all availible support:

2 weapons, At them, Aura of glory, Hurricanum, Azyros, 20 corsairs in melee range: 48 saves forced.

Blade and Crossbow, At them, Aura of glory, Hurricanum, Azyros, Hawk Eyed, 20 in melee range, all 40 in shooting range: 19 melee saves, 41 shooting saves.

So it would seem that handbow version is better... but! First of all, it also requires a warlord trait to operate properly, and it could probably be utilised better somewhere else. Let's remove that. Shooting output falls to 31.  Still better than dual weapon configuration, But wait, there's more! Every killed crossbow corsair reduces that output by 0,78 wound caused.

And the CC version has to take 20 wounds before it starts losing effectivenes (considering it's hard to get more than 20 of them into range - and if we counted it for all 40 in melee, however improbable it is, 2 weapon version  does  97 wounds, while shooty ones only 69/79 with hawk eyed). Plus, shooty ones don't work in enemy's combat phase. So let's do a test for proponged combat:

Version one: Shooty corsairs shoot. They do 31 wounds. They charge, and do 19 (50 in total) more. Enemy retaliates, kills 10 (arbitrary number, but will work for the test)

Next turn, enemy kills 10 more, corsairs attack back, do 19 (69 in total) more wounds. Next shooting phase they do 15  (84) wounds. Then they attack and do 19 more. 103. Then, if enemy attacks again, corsair effectiveness starts rapidly dropping, so we may stop here. If they didn't kill their target with 103 wounds, they are clearly fighting way outside their league

Version two: Corsairs charge, 20 get to cc, they do 48 wounds. Enemy kills 10. Next turn, enemy kills 10 more, corsairs attack and do 48 wounds (96). Next turn, corsairs do 48 wounds (144).

If corsairs *get* charged, melee guys fare even better, as there in all likeness won't be an opening salvo. And as they're primarily a screen unit with no speed buffs compared to, say, darklings, they probably will get charged.

Conclusion: If we have a steady stream of CP to pump into them, and are able to get them into combat in reasonable numbers, double weapon corsairs do ungodly amounts of damage. Shooty ones might seem better, but if we want to shoot, why not use any of our, well, shooting units. With range and firepower. 

[Rahatlin]

On 10/20/2019 at 12:27 PM, dekay said:

Idea:

Black ark corsairs with two melee weapons get +2 attacks from the fleetmaster. It can be increased by further +2 with aura of glory, giving them 6 attacks each. *bad* attacks, but, well, still. I have a feeling that, combined with their very low cost, this can make them useful. It's a cheap screen, but left alone they suddenly start throwing around buckets of dice. And they get 3+ against shooting in the first round, making clearing them out not particularily cost effective.

Has anyone thought of this or tested them in practice?

They have 1reach tho. Which means you probably wont be throwing that many dices as you wished /:  And it would cost you CP

[dekay]

13 minutes ago, Rahatlin said:

They have 1reach tho. Which means you probably wont be throwing that many dices as you wished /:  And it would cost you CP

We are pretty good at generating CP, though. Up to 3 a turn. And I did my calculations assuming that 20 corsairs max will get in range, with other 20 serving just as ablative wounds. They still sound quite effective that way...

[Rahatlin]

2 minutes ago, dekay said:

We are pretty good at generating CP, though. Up to 3 a turn. And I did my calculations assuming that 20 corsairs max will get in range, with other 20 serving just as ablative wounds. They still sound quite effective that way...

Looking at your post now it certainly make sense, but im not sure about loosing 10/round. With Battleshock etc.

Ultimetly 20 corsars are really close to 10 Elite infantry which can tank better and wound better.

They definetly have a usage, if you need bodies and they can def put out some wounds. They also look cool - i just wish they would require less support and numbers to be nice (with cost increase)  Becouse painting 40 of them makes me shiver 😀

[dekay]

13 minutes ago, Rahatlin said:

Looking at your post now it certainly make sense, but im not sure about loosing 10/round. With Battleshock etc.

Well, we have the artifact to ignore battleshock, too ; ). If I was running a 40 strong roadblock I'd probably take it to maximise their survivability... We have some strong competition in our artifacts lot, but luckily, battalion is relatively useful and not overly expensive to field, so it's quite easy to have an extra one.

Losing 10 per phase is of course oversimplification, but, honestly, black guard or greatswords die nearly as fast while costing way more. If something is able to kill more than 20 corsairs in one phase, it's probably more expensive than them, so they performed as screen pretty well...

And, yeah, I don't have any of them too and thought of painting the entire horde is terrifying

[stus67]

Where would plain old freeguild guard fit into a tempest eye list? I know I want to run a griffon and the battalion with pistoleers, but everything else seems slow in comparison and it increases the drops.

[zilberfrid]

2 hours ago, stus67 said:

Where would plain old freeguild guard fit into a tempest eye list? I know I want to run a griffon and the battalion with pistoleers, but everything else seems slow in comparison and it increases the drops.

Aura of glory and Halberds seem made for one another, and sword shield makes for just as effective a screen in TE as in other lists.

[Kramer]

On 10/21/2019 at 11:30 PM, Rahatlin said:

shiver

Would you say it would shiver your timbers? 

[Arathorn185]

So here is my 2k list;

Tempest Eye - 2000

Hero - 580

Knight-Venator - 120; General (Hawk-Eye), Seerstone Amulet

Knight-Azyros - 100; Adjunct

Celestial Hurricanum w/Mage - 280; Spell (Celestial Visions)

Assassin - 80; Hiding

Battleline - 320

2x Darkshards - 200(100); 10 Man, Full Command 

1x Arkanaut Company - 120; 10 Man, 3x Aethermatic Volley Gun, Captain w/ Volley Pistol

Other - 1050

3x Shadow Warriors - 330 (110);  10 Man, ShadowWalker, Hiding

2x Dark Riders - 220(110); 5 Man, Full Command

1x Dark Riders - 220; 10 Man, Full Command, Retinue 

1x Scourge Runner Chariots - 150; 3 Man, High Beastmaster 

1x Sisters of the Thorn - 130; 5 Man, Full Command, Spell (Aura of Glory)

Endless Spells - 50

Endless Lifeswarm - 50

Total 2000

The list is a midfield shooty list composed of 3 core sections. The first is the “anchor”; Dark Shards and Arkonauts, hold any backfield objectives. While supporting my “center”. With a 4+ save at the start and 5+ thereafter, alongside movement as an option I can semi-redeploy the Darkshards, while KO has 18 -1 shots (admittedly after T1 likely hitting on 5+ with potential of reroll 1) at 18” to support. Killing/Wounding on average 7, 4+ save models (9 if KO in 12)

My center is composed of my Dark Riders, Hurricanum, my knights and my sisters. Dumping a lot of shooting, and then have +1 attack hopefully on turn visions goes off/when combat is joined. Is my primary assault force. 120 Shots, 105 hitting on 5’s and 15 on 4’s. 42 hits on average and 21 wounds and about 10 wounds/dead 4+ save models before buffs. Plus potentially 20 spears from the sisters and Venator bow.

Finally my other third is my reserves, Lifeswarm, Shadow Warriors and Assassin, which can buff up my center or reinforce my backfield. Warriors add 30 shots killing an average 7 4+ save models. Meaning on average before buffs t1 I am killing/wound about 15 saves 4+. 
 

What everyone opanion? 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Arathorn185
Forgot to mention hiding

[soots]

On 10/19/2019 at 9:18 AM, swarmofseals said:

Darkshards with a hurricanum and hawkeyed have a WDR of .1111, which is better than Irondrakes while moving but worse while stationary. Irondrakes also get a lot better if you have Longbeards, which are a great screen that you might want to take anyway.

Handgunners have a WDR of .0954 with just the General buff, no need for hawkeyed or hurricanum (although you get the same effect without the general and with hawkeyed + hurricanum).

Crossbows have a WDR of .1389, but that does require the general. Without the general it's .112.

Sisters of the Watch have a WDR of .127, and they can get that with either Hurricanum or a Nomad Prince. 

You're absolutely right that Darkshards are the most offensively efficient option when moving, but they get beat out by Crossbows, Irondrakes, and Sisters of the Watch when stationary. Handgunners get beaten by all of these options, but they are also the least dependent on buffs.  They (and Sisters of the Watch) also benefit from stand and shoot.

I think if you are running a Soulscream bridge build then Darkshards are probably not the way to go, but if you aren't planning to bridge then they might be the best option.

Do you know the wdr calculator?

I did numbers and my ratings showed corsairs having a higher efficiency than dark shards. But obvious pros and cons. I feel like Freecities cannot do low drops and will likely go first. So you need some type of way to shoot at 24+ inches otherwise you literally lose a turn of the game which just completely destroys effiency. This pretty much voids the stand and shoot units. Especially 16" range which is basically only 1 turn of double shots before enemy is in. I rate dark shards best because they can kite with 16" range whereas corsairs cannot.

Edited October 24, 2019 by soots

[Kramer]

13 minutes ago, soots said:

his pretty much voids the stand and shoot units. Especially 16" range which is basically only 1 turn of double shots before enemy is in. I rate dark shards best because they can kite with 16" range whereas corsairs cannot

What do you mean by kite? 
but the threat range turn one is surely range + move + 3” + run and shoot for tempest eye? 

[soots]

11 minutes ago, Kramer said:

What do you mean by kite? 
but the threat range turn one is surely range + move + 3” + run and shoot for tempest eye? 

Im saying the irondrakes need to be stationary at 16" to get efficiency. Once they move, their efficiency gets halved. Same goes for sisters and crossbowmen - who unfortunately usually cannot hit the enemy turn 1. Darkshards need to go tempest or burn a ca to shoot first turn. Im just pointing out that with our high drops we will likely have to take first turn so its a real issue for us not being able to hit with shooting for an entire turn.

Kite = ability to shoot and move so enemy cannot touch them.