Tempest Eye Discussion

[zilberfrid]

5 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

So are any of the Kharadron Overlord units worth taking in TE? Someone is trying to convince me 10 Thunderers is better than 20 Irondrakes... 

I think they have some merit but I’m not fully convinced 

Arkanauts are, point for point, excellent shooting screens. With a frigate, they can be anywhere.

Gunhaulers are also quite nasty in per point damage output (and fit the battalion).

In Tempest's Eye, Thunderers can be buffed to the gills, better than in KO. You can have a hawk eyed general, a Hurricanum and stick them in an Ironclad.

[Ravinsild]

6 hours ago, Kramer said:

As a dwarf player of all sorts I’d say no. That’s not true imo. Unless you also take a frigate. That movement is  extremely valuable. And it’s 60 pts cheaper. 
but irondrakes are easier to buff, more bodies, more shots, battleline, better save against shooting. 

He is advising me that it’s infeasible to send 20 Irondrakes, 10 longbeards for a screen,  celestial Hurricanum and a support hero or two all over via a Soulscream Bridge and that I need to be prepared for the charge on my opponents turn as my screen will instantly die and then so will my Irondrakes. 
 

He is saying sending just 10 Grundstok Thunderers and an AetherKhemist with a Celestial Hurricanum will be much more survivable at 4+ 2 wounds each with a -2 to be hit within 3 inches. 
 

OTOH he runs kunnin rukk and 100 Arrowboys as well as a fully buffed Rogue Idol... and my friend plays Tzeentch (Changehost). There’s also Ogors and Skaven and Idoneth Deepkin In my local meta plus other like Sylvaneth and Ossiarch Bonereapers. Also every single one of them has shooting which does not provide any negatives to hit the Thunderers. 
 

Edit: There’s also not really any room in the list for an Ironclad and once I finally found a way to fit it in it wasn’t worth it because it’s movement speed was halved due to having 11 Dwarves.... so I might as well continue with the SoulScream Bridge plan. 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Ravinsild

[Killamike]

One of your main reasons for the soulscream bridge is it's a placement so doesn't count for moving. Great for drakes so they can double tap. 

Your screen doesn't need to teleport with them. Tempest eye can get you up the board fairly quickly. +3 move and a 6" run can even make your short legs move quickly. 

[Skreech Verminking]

6 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

He is advising me that it’s infeasible to send 20 Irondrakes, 10 longbeards for a screen,  celestial Hurricanum and a support hero or two all over via a Soulscream Bridge and that I need to be prepared for the charge on my opponents turn as my screen will instantly die and then so will my Irondrakes. 
 

He is saying sending just 10 Grundstok Thunderers and an AetherKhemist with a Celestial Hurricanum will be much more survivable at 4+ 2 wounds each with a -2 to be hit within 3 inches. 
 

OTOH he runs kunnin rukk and 100 Arrowboys as well as a fully buffed Rogue Idol... and my friend plays Tzeentch (Changehost). There’s also Ogors and Skaven and Idoneth Deepkin In my local meta plus other like Sylvaneth and Ossiarch Bonereapers. Also every single one of them has shooting which does not provide any negatives to hit the Thunderers. 
 

Edit: There’s also not really any room in the list for an Ironclad and once I finally found a way to fit it in it wasn’t worth it because it’s movement speed was halved due to having 11 Dwarves.... so I might as well continue with the SoulScream Bridge plan. 

Not sure what your friend is talking about but a screen of 30 +2 save rerolling ones in combat longbeards, will definitely hold the line for a turn, unless you facing grizzlegore and your friend rolled just 5 sixes to hit doing 30mortal wounds with one of his 6butes terrorgheist attacks, but that is basically the only scenario where I could see the longboards failing.

sure they might not be alive in the next turn or so, but they did their job in protecting those drakes, who hopefully stayed 3.001inches away from them

Edited April 27, 2020 by Skreech Verminking

[Ravinsild]

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Warden King (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Hawk-eyed
- Artefact: Seerstone Amulet
Runelord (90)
- City Role: General's Adjutant
Runelord (90)
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Lore of Eagles: Celestial Visions
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (220)
- Lore of Eagles: Aura of Glory

Battleline
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
20 x Irondrakes (300)

Units
6 x Evocators on Dracolines (520)
- 4x Grandstaves

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Soulscream Bridge (80)
Emerald Lifeswarm (50)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 103
 

So this is the list I think I finally came up with. At this point I'm wondering if I ought to stick with Tempest's Eye or possibly go Hallowheart since I've now got 3 wizard units, and apparently the Evocators themselves may take a spell from the spell lore, in which case I think I might take Eagle Strike on them to harass from ranged if needed. 

I looked at possibly bringing an Aether-Khemist with 10 Grundstok Thunderers, a Freeguild General on Griffin with 6 Demi-gryph Knights, a Lord Celestant on Dracoth with 4 Fulminators, Decimators or Concussors, but by and far the most damaging thing is these Evocators on Dracolines. I considered the Lord Arcanum on Dracoline, but I think the healing spell might be more beneficial than merely +1 attack on the paws, especially since I can cast Aura of Glory WITH my Lord-Arcanum. 

I feel as though the extra casters and raw power of the Evocators is a major boon over simply Demigryph Knights w/ Mounted General or Grundstok even if they'd be at -2 to hit in melee. 

Turn one would be something like roll 4+ for Seerstone, roll 4+ for Adjutant. If I get extra command points, wonderful I'll probably spend one to auto-empower my Evocators, if not then I'll probably just bank it. Might need it for my Warden King's no battleshock ability. Might need it to spend on Volley Fire to re-roll hit rolls of 1 in the shooting phase. Spells going off would be Aura of Glory, empowering my Evocators and the Soulscream Bridge. 

Cast Soulscream Bridge and try and fit 20 Longbeards, 20 Irondrakes, a Celestial Hurricanum, a Warden King and 2 Runelord wholly within 6'' around the bridge to castle on an objective. Then use my fast moving Evocators and the Lord-Arcanum upfield to smash into enemy lines. Hopefully the objective is within range of my Irondrakes so I can also shoot, like to clear screens or destroy a clutch support hero. I could

drop the Soulscream bridge and just run or even walk people turn one. That gets me about 120 free points, with which I'm not sure what to do. Unless I also dropped 3 Evocators. That'd leave a gap of 380 points for.... more Dwarves such as Ironbreakers for Screening or 20 hammerers for a 3rd hammer, or perhaps a Luminark of Hysh to grant all a 6+ FNP, or something else... 

Pros of Tempest Eye: 

• +1 to save rolls bringing my Irondrakes and Longbeards to at least a 3+ turn 1 then depends on what or may not target them to as powerful as a 2+, my heroes to a 3+ or 2+ respectively, and my Evocators to a 3+ rr1 vs shooting. 
• 15'' on Evocators and Lord Arcanum turn 1
• +1 to wound rolls for my Irondrakes
• Spell to add +1 to attack rolls for melee weapons which jacks up my Evocators to absurd levels
• Adding +1 to run rolls for even greater mobility in the late game when objective snagging
• I can run and shoot with my irondrakes for 1 command point if absolutely required. 

Cons of Tempest Eye:

• Only 1 Spell cast per Wizard means I must carefully consider my spells. I can't Empower my Evocators if I choose to cast Emerald Lifeswarm, Soulscream Bridge and Aura of Glory all on the same turn. 
• No 5+ FNP vs magic so enemies like Nagash, Tzeentch, even Skaven could put in a lot of work turn 1 with a magical alpha strike
• The +1 to wound rolls spell effects everyone, not just ranged units, whereas the command trait will only ever work on essentially the Irondrakes and could never help the Evocators
• A lot less healing in general

Pros of Hallowheart:

• 5+ FNP vs magic (especially useful vs Tzeentch) 
• 2 casts per wizard (I'd have at least 3 wizards)
• I can take mortal wounds to add to casting rolls so POSSIBLY even Tzeentch can't shut me down
• Warden of the Flame is the same as the Seerstone from TE for a 4+ gain 1 CP
• Whitefire Tome allows the bearer to have ALL of the spells which means:

1.  Lord-Arcanum Could cast Sear Wounds AND it's own healing spell to keep Dracolines alive, especially with that Storm Ability to revive 1 at 1 wound
2. Can add +1 to wound rolls instead of using the command trait from TE
3.  A much more deadly magic phase
4.  Ability to cast Sear Wounds AND Emerald Lifeswarm to heal 2D6 Wounds overall to replace lost HP from the command ability to add to casting
5. Ability to improve my screens by either granting them mortal wounds on unsaved save rolls and then revive with Emerald Lifeswarm, or grant them a 4+ FNP vs magic 
6.  A deadlier Magic Phase able to ****** out tons of mortal wounds

Cons of Hallowheart:

• No +1 to saves turn 1 means I am squishier to alpha strike
• No +3'' to movement and no +1 to run rolls and no running+shooting means I am generally slower which can hurt on large maps with many objectives for instance Scorched Earth with 8 objectives total spread out over the whole map 
• No spell for extra attacks, although it would only lower the overall damage by single digits like at max 6 or something 
• No automatic +1 to wound rolls on my Irondrakes and powerful dispellers, like Khorne, other Dwarves, Tzeentch and Nagash might shut me down
• Powerful dispellers and unbinders might shut me out so I gain very little from the allegiance abilities

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Ravinsild

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, Ravinsild said:

He is advising me that it’s infeasible to send 20 Irondrakes, 10 longbeards for a screen,  celestial Hurricanum and a support hero or two all over via a Soulscream Bridge and that I need to be prepared for the charge on my opponents turn as my screen will instantly die and then so will my Irondrakes. 

Haha that's a very different comparison. Yeah that sounds about right then. You want the diminished footprint i'd say. Should have asked the context. 

Although I personally don't really believe in the bridge as the main strategy. But that's a personal call of course. But in that context his advice seems sound to me. Although if you really want to alpha something that way I think I'd still use Irondrakes for more damage and then just use them as a sacrificial Alpha strike. 

[Gwendar]

8 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

I looked at possibly bringing an Aether-Khemist with 10 Grundstok Thunderers, a Freeguild General on Griffin with 6 Demi-gryph Knights, a Lord Celestant on Dracoth with 4 Fulminators, Decimators or Concussors, but by and far the most damaging thing is these Evocators on Dracolines. I considered the Lord Arcanum on Dracoline, but I think the healing spell might be more beneficial than merely +1 attack on the paws, especially since I can cast Aura of Glory WITH my Lord-Arcanum. 

I feel as though the extra casters and raw power of the Evocators is a major boon over simply Demigryph Knights w/ Mounted General or Grundstok even if they'd be at -2 to hit in melee. 

Worth noting that I run something similar; 20 Longbeards (sometimes 20 Guard and just 10 Longbeards) and rather than Dracolines, I use 20 Hammerers, 20 Irondrakes which are the 2 main hammers that both go across the Bridge. Hammerers get a lot of + to charge (Ghur Battlemage) and charge at whatever they want rather reliably. I also take a Gunhauler + 6 Endrinriggers which act as the highly mobile squad that are good for trash clearing or taking lightly\unguarded objectives.. the Gunhauler may even snipe a support hero or two if you're lucky.

So, essentially I'm trading your 2 hammer units for 2 1/2\3. It still has the same risk that Bridge has for everyone.. the bottom line with that scenario is that you have to just see how your opponent is deployed and whether or not you can take that T1\2 Bridge and remove enough off the board so you aren't threatened in return. Otherwise... yeah, making a castle on an objective can do it, depending on the battleplan. Anyway,  works well for me, though I also despise Stormcast (even though I run an Azyros for those free RR 1's 😅) so I would never consider running Evocators anyway, despite the fact that they do 28+ damage against a 4+ all on their own without a Lord-Arcanum.

[Ravinsild]

20 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Worth noting that I run something similar; 20 Longbeards (sometimes 20 Guard and just 10 Longbeards) and rather than Dracolines, I use 20 Hammerers, 20 Irondrakes which are the 2 main hammers that both go across the Bridge. Hammerers get a lot of + to charge (Ghur Battlemage) and charge at whatever they want rather reliably. I also take a Gunhauler + 6 Endrinriggers which act as the highly mobile squad that are good for trash clearing or taking lightly\unguarded objectives.. the Gunhauler may even snipe a support hero or two if you're lucky.

So, essentially I'm trading your 2 hammer units for 2 1/2\3. It still has the same risk that Bridge has for everyone.. the bottom line with that scenario is that you have to just see how your opponent is deployed and whether or not you can take that T1\2 Bridge and remove enough off the board so you aren't threatened in return. Otherwise... yeah, making a castle on an objective can do it, depending on the battleplan. Anyway,  works well for me, though I also despise Stormcast (even though I run an Azyros for those free RR 1's 😅) so I would never consider running Evocators anyway, despite the fact that they do 28+ damage against a 4+ all on their own without a Lord-Arcanum.

My entire army is 3rd party miniatures so for my part I’d be running them as Dwarves on Bears with a RunePriest on bear. I have no love for Stormcast but I have reviewed many options overall. As I said, Demigryph Knights, Grundstok Thunderers, Gyrocoptors even, and yes Gunhaulers. 
 

It appears to me to be a most effective hammer even dropping down to 3 in order to pick up a unit of Ironbreakers to fortify my screen and a unit of Hammerers who do about as well as the Evocators with the right love and attention  

that gives me 3 deadly hammers spread out and so not all my eggs are in one basket. I suppose I shall see how this pans out for me.... 

my only real desire was to make a winnable army with the majority of it being actual Duardin Warscrolls even if I’m subbing every model for Dwarves including the mages. 

[readercolin]

8 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

So this is the list I think I finally came up with. At this point I'm wondering if I ought to stick with Tempest's Eye or possibly go Hallowheart since I've now got 3 wizard units, and apparently the Evocators themselves may take a spell from the spell lore, in which case I think I might take Eagle Strike on them to harass from ranged if needed. 

A note - Evocators are specifically barred from casting anything except Empower, however any number of them can cast empower as many times as they would like.  The exception is they can cast spells from the Lore of Invigoration, and this is specifically called out in the Stormcast FAQ.  What this means for non-stormcast usage though is that they can only cast empower.  That means no city spells, AND no endless spells.  That being said, because of the wording on empower, they might be able to cast empower twice from a single unit if they somehow get 2 casts available.

8 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

I looked at possibly bringing an Aether-Khemist with 10 Grundstok Thunderers, a Freeguild General on Griffin with 6 Demi-gryph Knights, a Lord Celestant on Dracoth with 4 Fulminators, Decimators or Concussors, but by and far the most damaging thing is these Evocators on Dracolines. I considered the Lord Arcanum on Dracoline, but I think the healing spell might be more beneficial than merely +1 attack on the paws, especially since I can cast Aura of Glory WITH my Lord-Arcanum. 

I feel as though the extra casters and raw power of the Evocators is a major boon over simply Demigryph Knights w/ Mounted General or Grundstok even if they'd be at -2 to hit in melee. 

Aether-Khemist + 10 thunderers is going to be worse than evocators, and if you were looking at that I would instead look to run more irondrakes.  The only case where an argument can be made to run Thunderer's in Tempest Eye is if you have a boat to stick them on.  Otherwise, 10 Irondrakes that aren't getting hurricanum/hawk eyed buffs are going to be dealing 70% of the damage that 10 thunderers are with all the buffs (and more than 10 thunderers that are out of range of the buffs), while being 90 points cheaper.  However, only thunderers (and arkanaughts) can get into the boats, so if you want to run a frigate/ironclad with extra guns inside as another mobile killing force to be able hit from more angles, they make sense.  Without the boat though, it is really hard to promote them.

As for other options, I do agree that evokitties are one of the killiest melee options available.  However, I would like to say that you may want to consider bringing a Heraldor instead of an Arcanum.  Why?  The heraldor lets the kitties run and charge (say hello to a 17-22" move followed by a re-rollable 2d6 charge), and he lets them also retreat and charge as well.  Since kitties do significantly more on the charge than when stuck in, having that extra mobility can be extremely helpful.

As for your city choices, realistically either will work, but I would probably look to get another mage or two in if you decide to run hallowheart, just because its only real benefit is maximizing spells.  Aside from that, your list looks fine to run as either.

[zilberfrid]

10 minutes ago, readercolin said:

A note - Evocators are specifically barred from casting anything except Empower, however any number of them can cast empower as many times as they would like.  The exception is they can cast spells from the Lore of Invigoration, and this is specifically called out in the Stormcast FAQ.  What this means for non-stormcast usage though is that they can only cast empower.  That means no city spells, AND no endless spells.  That being said, because of the wording on empower, they might be able to cast empower twice from a single unit if they somehow get 2 casts available.

Aether-Khemist + 10 thunderers is going to be worse than evocators, and if you were looking at that I would instead look to run more irondrakes.  The only case where an argument can be made to run Thunderer's in Tempest Eye is if you have a boat to stick them on.  Otherwise, 10 Irondrakes that aren't getting hurricanum/hawk eyed buffs are going to be dealing 70% of the damage that 10 thunderers are with all the buffs (and more than 10 thunderers that are out of range of the buffs), while being 90 points cheaper.  However, only thunderers (and arkanaughts) can get into the boats, so if you want to run a frigate/ironclad with extra guns inside as another mobile killing force to be able hit from more angles, they make sense.  Without the boat though, it is really hard to promote them.

As for other options, I do agree that evokitties are one of the killiest melee options available.  However, I would like to say that you may want to consider bringing a Heraldor instead of an Arcanum.  Why?  The heraldor lets the kitties run and charge (say hello to a 17-22" move followed by a re-rollable 2d6 charge), and he lets them also retreat and charge as well.  Since kitties do significantly more on the charge than when stuck in, having that extra mobility can be extremely helpful.

As for your city choices, realistically either will work, but I would probably look to get another mage or two in if you decide to run hallowheart, just because its only real benefit is maximizing spells.  Aside from that, your list looks fine to run as either.

Evokitties look really... Stormcast if you don't proxy them though.

16 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

He is advising me that it’s infeasible to send 20 Irondrakes, 10 longbeards for a screen,  celestial Hurricanum and a support hero or two all over via a Soulscream Bridge and that I need to be prepared for the charge on my opponents turn as my screen will instantly die and then so will my Irondrakes. 
 

He is saying sending just 10 Grundstok Thunderers and an AetherKhemist with a Celestial Hurricanum will be much more survivable at 4+ 2 wounds each with a -2 to be hit within 3 inches. 
 

OTOH he runs kunnin rukk and 100 Arrowboys as well as a fully buffed Rogue Idol... and my friend plays Tzeentch (Changehost). There’s also Ogors and Skaven and Idoneth Deepkin In my local meta plus other like Sylvaneth and Ossiarch Bonereapers. Also every single one of them has shooting which does not provide any negatives to hit the Thunderers. 
 

Edit: There’s also not really any room in the list for an Ironclad and once I finally found a way to fit it in it wasn’t worth it because it’s movement speed was halved due to having 11 Dwarves.... so I might as well continue with the SoulScream Bridge plan. 

With an Ironclad, 11 dwarves fit just fine, it has place for 15/25. You're probably thinking of a Frigate, which is half as hard to field and has place for 10.

[Ravinsild]

3 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Evokitties look really... Stormcast if you don't proxy them though.

With an Ironclad, 11 dwarves fit just fine, it has place for 15/25. You're probably thinking of a Frigate, which is half as hard to field and has place for 10.

Yeah I was looking at the Frigate. I just don’t think Kharadron bring enough to table since I’m not wanting to run a Kharadron force but rather a strong regular Disspossessed/Duardin/Old Dwarves list with a complimentary supplement. I guess the whole point of the list is to run as many Dwarves as possible but still be effective and win and supplement with units who shore up their weaknesses and provide something they don’t innately have.... like speed. And magic. 

[Ravinsild]

20 minutes ago, readercolin said:

A note - Evocators are specifically barred from casting anything except Empower, however any number of them can cast empower as many times as they would like.  The exception is they can cast spells from the Lore of Invigoration, and this is specifically called out in the Stormcast FAQ.  What this means for non-stormcast usage though is that they can only cast empower.  That means no city spells, AND no endless spells.  That being said, because of the wording on empower, they might be able to cast empower twice from a single unit if they somehow get 2 casts available.

Aether-Khemist + 10 thunderers is going to be worse than evocators, and if you were looking at that I would instead look to run more irondrakes.  The only case where an argument can be made to run Thunderer's in Tempest Eye is if you have a boat to stick them on.  Otherwise, 10 Irondrakes that aren't getting hurricanum/hawk eyed buffs are going to be dealing 70% of the damage that 10 thunderers are with all the buffs (and more than 10 thunderers that are out of range of the buffs), while being 90 points cheaper.  However, only thunderers (and arkanaughts) can get into the boats, so if you want to run a frigate/ironclad with extra guns inside as another mobile killing force to be able hit from more angles, they make sense.  Without the boat though, it is really hard to promote them.

As for other options, I do agree that evokitties are one of the killiest melee options available.  However, I would like to say that you may want to consider bringing a Heraldor instead of an Arcanum.  Why?  The heraldor lets the kitties run and charge (say hello to a 17-22" move followed by a re-rollable 2d6 charge), and he lets them also retreat and charge as well.  Since kitties do significantly more on the charge than when stuck in, having that extra mobility can be extremely helpful.

As for your city choices, realistically either will work, but I would probably look to get another mage or two in if you decide to run hallowheart, just because its only real benefit is maximizing spells.  Aside from that, your list looks fine to run as either.

Thanks! Honestly I’m not too familiar with Stormcast Heroes so I was thinking I guess... in my mind the army would play as two halves? 

The castle which is dropped via SoulScream Bridge and the mobile hammer/strike force that’s mostly independent. I figured a quick hero would be beneficial as an escort and provide sustain/buffs as that Lord Arcanum on Gryph Charger can bring one back to 1 wound and I would have either the healing spell he’s got or emerald lifeswarm to keep the hammer in the game. I even considered a regular Ghur mage on foot for simply Wildshape to grant +2 to charge rolls but essentially have the two halves as independents as possible.

ill look into this Heraldor fella and see if I can squeeze him in one way or another. 

[Gwendar]

10 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

My entire army is 3rd party miniatures

Ah, I would do that but planned to take them to tournaments at some point.. though I have 2 armies I already do that for when it comes to major\ITC tournaments so.. maybe I'll strictly use this for local and have some bears 😉. Speaking of, what are you using for a Dwarf themed Hurricanum?



On the subject of Dwarf lists, I came up with this as an alternative to the Gunhauler + Endrin list:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye

Leaders
Runelord (90)
- General
- Command Trait: Hawk-eyed
Runelord (90)
- City Role: General's Adjutant
Warden King (110)
Battlemage (90)
- Lore of Eagles: Aura of Glory
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Lore of Eagles: Aura of Glory

Battleline
20 x Hammerers (280)
20 x Irondrakes (300)
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
30 x Arkanaut Company (270)
- 3x Light Skyhooks

Units
3 x Gyrocopters (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Soulscream Bridge (80)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 133
 

I initially had FG Guard, but keeping it dwarf themed had me looking at a different screen\objective sitter. With that, my choice was honestly between 3 things:

• 20 Vulkties - Effectively 40 wounds and about as killy as Arkanauts, but no TE benefits. Same +1 to save in melee as Longbeards to sit on 4+ over a 3+, but 10 more wounds total.
• 30 Longbeards - 30 dudes sitting on a 3+ is nice, even if the damage isn't spectacular. 
• 30 Arkanauts - Some ranged potential with the Skyhooks and RR BS on objectives if that's something you think is good. Damage-wise they're about on par with 20 Vulkites (~10 damage vs a 4+ save), but that's assuming you get 20 models in with melee as well.

With this we have 3 threats in the Hammerers, Irondrakes and Gyrocopters. I've also considered just dropping down to a smaller screen (IE, maybe another 10 Longbeards for 3x10) and would have 170 points to play with.. though I don't know that there is much I could consider using that on. A Gunhauler for sniping potential? I suppose it could work well if ran in conjunction with the Gyrocopters and you would have yourself a nice little Dwarved Air Force squad to boot 😉 (the more I think about it, the more I prefer it over the above.. curious on everyone's thoughts).

Edited April 28, 2020 by Gwendar

[Ravinsild]

1 hour ago, Gwendar said:

Ah, I would do that but planned to take them to tournaments at some point.. though I have 2 armies I already do that for when it comes to major\ITC tournaments so.. maybe I'll strictly use this for local and have some bears 😉. Speaking of, what are you using for a Dwarf themed Hurricanum?



On the subject of Dwarf lists, I came up with this as an alternative to the Gunhauler + Endrin list:

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye

Leaders
Runelord (90)
- General
- Command Trait: Hawk-eyed
Runelord (90)
- City Role: General's Adjutant
Warden King (110)
Battlemage (90)
- Lore of Eagles: Aura of Glory
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Lore of Eagles: Aura of Glory

Battleline
20 x Hammerers (280)
20 x Irondrakes (300)
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
30 x Arkanaut Company (270)
- 3x Light Skyhooks

Units
3 x Gyrocopters (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Soulscream Bridge (80)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 133
 

I initially had FG Guard, but keeping it dwarf themed had me looking at a different screen\objective sitter. With that, my choice was honestly between 3 things:

• 20 Vulkties - Effectively 40 wounds and about as killy as Arkanauts, but no TE benefits. Same +1 to save in melee as Longbeards to sit on 4+ over a 3+, but 10 more wounds total.
• 30 Longbeards - 30 dudes sitting on a 3+ is nice, even if the damage isn't spectacular. 
• 30 Arkanauts - Some ranged potential with the Skyhooks and RR BS on objectives if that's something you think is good. Damage-wise they're about on par with 20 Vulkites (~10 damage vs a 4+ save), but that's assuming you get 20 models in with melee as well.

With this we have 3 threats in the Hammerers, Irondrakes and Gyrocopters. I've also considered just dropping down to a smaller screen (IE, maybe another 10 Longbeards for 3x10) and would have 170 points to play with.. though I don't know that there is much I could consider using that on. A Gunhauler for sniping potential? I suppose it could work well if ran in conjunction with the Gyrocopters and you would have yourself a nice little Dwarved Air Force squad to boot 😉 (the more I think about it, the more I prefer it over the above.. curious on everyone's thoughts).

I am using essentially all Scibor Miniatures. I am using the actual carriage for the Celestial Hurricanum, but I am replacing the horses drawing the carriage with bears and I am replacing the humans wizards on the balcony and back with Dwarf Wizards. 

https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/sierpien_2010/big/war_bear_2_01.jpg

https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/sierpien_2010/big/war_bear_3_01.jpg

https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/2018/big/dwarf_wizard_2_01.jpg

https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/2017/big/dwarf_wizard_01.jpg

As for the Lord-Arcanum upon Gryph Charger, he shall henceforth be: https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/2018/big/dwarf_wizard_on_war_bear_01.jpg

The three (for now, possibly 6) Evocators on Dracolines shall be as follows:
The Leader: https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/2016/big/dwarf_lord_on_war_bear__2_01.jpg

Guy with a Granstave 1: https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/2010/big/dwarf_general_on_war_bear_p_01.jpg

Guy with a Grandstave 2: https://www.sciborminiatures.com/pow.php?absol=1&co=i/2014/big/dwarf_on_war_bear_1_p_01.jpg

I ended up adjusting my list as follows:

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Warden King (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Hawk-eyed
- Artefact: Seerstone Amulet
Runelord (90)
- City Role: General's Adjutant
Runelord (90)
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Lore of Eagles: Strike of Eagles
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (220)
- Lore of Eagles: Aura of Glory
Knight-Heraldor (100)

Battleline
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
10 x Ironbreakers (130)
20 x Irondrakes (300)
10 x Hammerers (140)

Units
3 x Evocators on Dracolines (260)
- 2x Grandstaves

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Emerald Lifeswarm (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 113
 

In this way I can experiment with the Heraldor and simply walk up the board turn 1 or even run (and still charge w/ Evocators AND still shoot (Command Ability of TE) with Irondrakes even if it's just the 1 shot each). 7'' on 24'' distance between deployment can move in pretty deep and I don't necessarily *need* to see action turn 1 per se. 

And/or I can add the 3 other Evocators at a later time and/or drop the Herald guy for a SoulScream bridge. I have a decent core and I can plug and play from here to find what works best for me. 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Ravinsild

[Ravinsild]

Hmmmm

580 points get me: 
1 Knight Heraldor (100) granting 1 unit the ability to run and charge 
1 Lord-Arcanum on Gryph Charger (220) who can cast Aura of Glory (+1 to melee attack profiles), Cycle the Storm (a slain SE can return with 1 wound) a spell to heal wounded SE for D3 or D6 wounds 
3 Evocators on Dracolines (260) 

Or 

1 Knight Heraldor 
4 Fulminators

Turn one using Aura of Glory on escort hero, Celestial Hurricanum, Command Point to re-roll 1’s in combat

Turn 1 moving 17”-22” inbuilt Re-Roll Charges 5 wounds apiece 3+ save rr1 vs Shooting Attacks (missile) for Evocators
 

Vs Turn 1 moving 14”-20” 5 wounds apiece 2+ save rr1 vs all for Fulminators however does have a 12” shooting attack not accounted for in the graph below because assuming running and charging and you can’t run and shoot. Unless I spend another CP for the command ability from TE. 
 

Slower, more risky, tougher and harder hitting vs faster, still hard hitting, inbuilt self support and more support heroes

The second graph was me deciding the Stormcast Element is entirely separate from my Dwarf Element. Essentially just sending it out as a missile without a Celestial Hurricanum. Just purely throw the Heraldor buff on it, The Lord Arcnum Escort and the Evocators isolated as their own separate thing, or the same scenario for the Fulminators in order to leave the Celestial Hurricanum with my Dwarf block. 
 

The third chart is basically the same as the second except what if I sent the Celestial Hurricanum with the Fulminators to cast aura of glory but no CP’s or anything just assuming I’d save them for something else. 

Edited April 29, 2020 by Ravinsild

[Ravinsild]

So here’s a chart comparing the Warscroll self contained with no buffs save what is on the Warscroll itself. 

3 Evocators (260 pts) vs

6 Demigryph Knights with both loadouts (360 pts)

Vs Vanguard-Palladors with both load outs (360 pts)

This assumes a charge in all cases seeing what would happen if I played them aggressively like Gore-Gruntas and just shot them ahead of my army.
 

So then I was like okay basically the same across the board adding in manually about 3 mortal wounds from the Celestial Lightning Arc 

So then I was like well how do 3 Evocators (260) fare against 4 of all the Drake riders dudes (Concussors, Decimators, Fulminators and Tempestors) 

260 (3 Evocators) vs 380 (Demigryph and Palladors) vs about (Decimators and Tempestors) 400 to (Fulminators and Concussors) 480 points
 

So then I was like ****** it it takes basically double unit size to really compete with Evocators so what if I went the whole hog and spend 520 points on 6 Evocators on Dracolines and they ****** on everybody...

 

 

[Popisdead]

Hi folks,

 

If I have Sisters of the Thorn cast Aura of Glory,.. how much of the SotT unit needs to be wholly within the 12" range?  Say I am casting it on some Wild Riders or Eternal Guard in CC.  Can the whole target unit be wholly within range of just one Sister or does every Sister need to somehow be within range of at least one model from the target (of the spell) unit?

Okay re-reading the spell they cast it on themselves but question still stands.

Thanks and I hope I explained that clearly.

[Aelfric]

3 hours ago, Popisdead said:

Hi folks,

 

If I have Sisters of the Thorn cast Aura of Glory,.. how much of the SotT unit needs to be wholly within the 12" range?  Say I am casting it on some Wild Riders or Eternal Guard in CC.  Can the whole target unit be wholly within range of just one Sister or does every Sister need to somehow be within range of at least one model from the target (of the spell) unit?

Okay re-reading the spell they cast it on themselves but question still stands.

Thanks and I hope I explained that clearly.

The "wholly within" refers to the unit that the spell is cast on.  So long as that unit is wholly within range of one Sister, then the spell will work.  They are always wholly within range of themselves.

[Rune]

On 4/28/2020 at 4:37 PM, Ravinsild said:

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Warden King (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Hawk-eyed
- Artefact: Seerstone Amulet
Runelord (90)
- City Role: General's Adjutant
Runelord (90)
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Lore of Eagles: Strike of Eagles
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (220)
- Lore of Eagles: Aura of Glory
Knight-Heraldor (100)

Battleline
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
10 x Ironbreakers (130)
20 x Irondrakes (300)
10 x Hammerers (140)

Units
3 x Evocators on Dracolines (260)
- 2x Grandstaves

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Emerald Lifeswarm (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 113

Hi,

 

What sort of feedback are you asking for? I've seen you have made a lot of posts, and it isn't really clear to me what you are asking. Perhaps this can get me started

• Are you looking for an entirely dwarf themed army, or are you for instance willing to bring Freeguild units?
• Are you looking for a very competitive list that fares well at tournaments, or rather something that suits your local meta, or is it entirely just a list for fun?
  • If you want a tournament list, then look at the top tournament armies. OBR, Tzeentch etc. Consider how it is to play against your list rather than just math-hammer. Lets say I am playing Bonereapers. I give you turn one, what do you get out of that? 
  • If you want a local meta list, think about the same, just against the lists in your local meta

 

Something that I immediately thought about your list is that if the opponent sets up their army far back in their deployment zone, and gives you turn one (which will happen often with your high number of drops) you'll get almost nothing out of turn 1. And that negates the whole reason for going Tempest Eye. Usually if you have a high drop army, you need to be sure you can get something out of turn 1. That's just even more important if you are playing TE.

 

If you take a soulscream bridge, and something with long range (such as Crossbowmen/SotW), you force your opponent to screen up the front of their deployment zone, since you have to teleport 9" away from them, and that's how they'll save their heroes in the back. If their opponent uses an expensive screen, that's great, you can to shoot at that and charge it with your Evocators. If your opponent uses a cheap screen, your shooters can clear that out easily (since the cheap screen will usually have bad armor save), which gives your Evocators opportunity to charge after the screen is gone.

 

I'm not a fan of the Warden King, you can get battleshock immunity through an artifact thus imo not worth the investment.

[Rune]

On 4/28/2020 at 4:37 PM, Ravinsild said:

 

Another quick take on taking Evocators could be something along these lines. If you want to go with the dwarves you can sub out the Handgunners, Crossbowmen and General for 20 Irondrakes, a Runelord, 10 Longbeards with 110 points to spare. But then you need Hawk-Eyed to get your wound rolls to 2, and lose out of another command trait. You also get less damage, less range, fewer models but better saves.

 

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye

Leaders
Freeguild General (100)
- Artefact: Patrician's Helm
Battlemage (90)
- Mortal Realm: Hysh
Anointed of Asuryan on Frostheart Phoenix (320)
- General
- Command Trait: Swift as the Wind
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Lore of Eagles: Aura of Glory
Knight-Heraldor (100)

Battleline
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)
30 x Freeguild Crossbowmen (300)

Units
6 x Evocators on Dracolines (520)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Soulscream Bridge (80)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 118

You've got a lot more damage turn one than 20 Irondrakes will bring - running or not. And the turns to come those Freeguild units will also do more damage, though at the cost of a command point from the Freeguild General. Your screens are weaker much though, as that's the job of the Handgunners, and you are more dependent on the bridge going off.

On the split side, it's going to be impossible to screen turn 1 for your opponent. Since you both got a threat that runs up the table, and one that teleports in with 24" range.

You've got battleshock immunity from your artifact, so you don't have to worry about not having an extra command point for inspiring presence. You can use the one you get for the Freeguild Generals ability. 

You do not have to take Hawk Eyed, as you'll be wounding on 2s anyway. Which means you can use one of the other command traits to either support your Evocators or buff the Phoenix.

The Phoenix will support your Evocators with a -1 to wound aura, and with the command trait it gets to fight first. That means you'll have a lot of shooting and both your Evocators and Phoenix getting to swing before your opponent.

Depending on how your opponent sets up you can either have the Hurricanum use Aura of Glory and support the Evocators, or you can have the  Hurricanum support the shooters and instead cast Soulscream Bridge. The battlemage can then use their spell to give your Evocators Phas Protection as well, so they are -1 to hit, as well as the -1 to wound from the Phoenix. If your Hurricanum supports the Evocators, it'll obviously be the battlemage casting the bridge.
            - basically a choice of going offensive or defensive with your Evocators, which can be evaluated after deployment

[Ravinsild]

1 hour ago, Rune said:

Hi,

 

What sort of feedback are you asking for? I've seen you have made a lot of posts, and it isn't really clear to me what you are asking. Perhaps this can get me started

• Are you looking for an entirely dwarf themed army, or are you for instance willing to bring Freeguild units?
• Are you looking for a very competitive list that fares well at tournaments, or rather something that suits your local meta, or is it entirely just a list for fun?
  • If you want a tournament list, then look at the top tournament armies. OBR, Tzeentch etc. Consider how it is to play against your list rather than just math-hammer. Lets say I am playing Bonereapers. I give you turn one, what do you get out of that? 
  • If you want a local meta list, think about the same, just against the lists in your local meta

 

Something that I immediately thought about your list is that if the opponent sets up their army far back in their deployment zone, and gives you turn one (which will happen often with your high number of drops) you'll get almost nothing out of turn 1. And that negates the whole reason for going Tempest Eye. Usually if you have a high drop army, you need to be sure you can get something out of turn 1. That's just even more important if you are playing TE.

 

If you take a soulscream bridge, and something with long range (such as Crossbowmen/SotW), you force your opponent to screen up the front of their deployment zone, since you have to teleport 9" away from them, and that's how they'll save their heroes in the back. If their opponent uses an expensive screen, that's great, you can to shoot at that and charge it with your Evocators. If your opponent uses a cheap screen, your shooters can clear that out easily (since the cheap screen will usually have bad armor save), which gives your Evocators opportunity to charge after the screen is gone.

 

I'm not a fan of the Warden King, you can get battleshock immunity through an artifact thus imo not worth the investment.

I think it’s because my posts had sort of been scattered. 
 

To answer your questions: What am I looking for? A primarily Duardin army that can win something like 1 out of 5 matches in a tournament. 
 

My local meta IS the meta, there’s extremely competitive lists with some of the top players that have placed consistently well at Nashcon and beat some of the best players in the world. It’s Ossiarch Bonereapers, Sylvaneth, Changehost Tzeentch, Ogor Mawtribes, Orruk Warclans, Slaneesh, Flesh Eater Courts and more. 
 

I pretty much was looking for a reasonable core of only Duardin and then what would supplement them best. I’ve looked at Artillery lists (Greywater Fastness) using both Artillery and Gyrocoptors and I’ve looked at Kharadron for extra shooting and pretty much been trying to crunch numbers to figure out what kind of Calvary works best. 
 

The list provided can be tweaked to drop the Heraldor (or maybe the Lord-Arcanum? But he’s a great wizard with great abilities) to include a SoulScream bridge which I had been building around and then decided why not try it out without one and then see if I need it later. 
 

One of the reasons I like the Warden King IMO is that I know eventually my opponent will get into my screens and break through. Behind my screens are Hammerers and Irondrakes. The Warden King gives battleshock immunity so my screens last longer and then I can grudge the enemy unit and, get off aura of glory from the supporting Celestial Hurricanum and then smash them with Hammerers. This way my army has 3 threats: Hammerers, Irondrakes and Evocators. 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Ravinsild

[Popisdead]

5 hours ago, Aelfric said:

The "wholly within" refers to the unit that the spell is cast on.  So long as that unit is wholly within range of one Sister, then the spell will work.  They are always wholly within range of themselves.

Thanks I thought so, just wanted to make sure it wasn't something weird.

[zilberfrid]

7 hours ago, Aelfric said:

The "wholly within" refers to the unit that the spell is cast on.  So long as that unit is wholly within range of one Sister, then the spell will work.  They are always wholly within range of themselves.

Is it wholly within the unit or one sister? Wholly within the unit would make them really good for this spell, as they can be a long string.

[Ravinsild]

It's entirely possible that being stubborn and sticking with a Dwarf majority/primarily list is a detriment in my desire to at least nominally compete in my meta where everyone is constantly preparing for tournaments and running hardball lists often with the most competitive factions....but I just don't like Elves or Humans that much in Cities and I think Dwarves look cool and have cool warscrolls. 

So maybe I'll be the punching bag of the group and maybe that's ok. 

@Rune My intentions have been to use as many Dwarf warscrolls as possible and then supplement those warscrolls to bring out the best within them, and to compliment them as best as possible, such as very long range shooting (Artillery), or speed (Gyrocoptors, Calvary) to supplement their weaknesses in addition to universally useful support pieces (Celestial Hurricanum which also brings magic for even greater support). 

So building the best possible Dwarf army I can, whether that is Tempest Eye or another city and using whatever supplements them to the greatest degree without compromising on mostly using Dwarves because I think they're just really cool and have amazing lore. I love the old world dwarves, and I love the AOS Dispossessed. 

I guess, to use an analogy, I am trying to squeeze as much juice as humanly possible out of THESE oranges, rather than simply using a different fruit, like say grapes or apples or lemons. 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Ravinsild

[Gwendar]

28 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

It's entirely possible that being stubborn and sticking with a Dwarf majority/primarily list is a detriment in my desire to at least nominally compete in my meta where everyone is constantly preparing for tournaments and running hardball lists often with the most competitive factions....but I just don't like Elves or Humans that much in Cities and I think Dwarves look cool and have cool warscrolls. 

So maybe I'll be the punching bag of the group and maybe that's ok. 

@Rune My intentions have been to use as many Dwarf warscrolls as possible and then supplement those warscrolls to bring out the best within them, and to compliment them as best as possible, such as very long range shooting (Artillery), or speed (Gyrocoptors, Calvary) to supplement their weaknesses in addition to universally useful support pieces (Celestial Hurricanum which also brings magic for even greater support). 

So building the best possible Dwarf army I can, whether that is Tempest Eye or another city and using whatever supplements them to the greatest degree without compromising on mostly using Dwarves because I think they're just really cool and have amazing lore. I love the old world dwarves, and I love the AOS Dispossessed. 

I guess, to use an analogy, I am trying to squeeze as much juice as humanly possible out of THESE oranges, rather than simply using a different fruit, like say grapes or apples or lemons. 

To be honest, Dwarf units are great and all, but on the expensive side for what they do and what they need to do that. I'm with you; I love Dwarves and don't care much for the basic men-in-tights look of the Freeguild and have always hated the pointy hatted Elves. Your proposed lists have all been fine, but you also recognize that you need something else; Evocators, PG, Longer ranged shooting via Crossbows or maybe SotW for more MW output, etc.. and all of these will need their own buffing heroes (well.. maybe +not the Evocators 😉)

A Soulscream Bridge in CoS is an easily read 1-trick pony that any experienced player will shut down for you by not allowing you to make good use of it. It's a main reason I stopped using it in my Skaven lists, and while it has more viability here in CoS, I think it should be used more as a utility later on than something that will net you a goal T1. I know that isn't your biggest point of contention or anything with your decisions, just wanted to add another point that using it comes with learning to gauge the risks involved.

The most we can tell you is what works for us and what we believe can work.. but ultimately I think you need to play games and determine what works for you and what doesn't and make changes accordingly. At some point you'll have to decide if you want to stick to purely Dwarves or flesh something out that's more well-rounded.