Tempest Eye Discussion

[Raffonerd]

9 hours ago, Ashman said:

Well we get +1 saves first turn and movement bonus to help counteract some of this.  So logically a TE list should exploit that.  My thought is that in the example you site your opponent is going to need to potentially overinvest in casting which in turn can make them vulnerable from a points perspective (they can end up giving up a lot to go magic heavy).  A good TE list in my opinion should have a measurable degree of magic cancellation to not only counter that but in some cases exploit an oponents choice to do so (Runelords, Longbeards, other casters).  Investing points in heavy magic can be risky especially when the spells fail and/or get dispelled.  Most spells have a range requirement so every TE list should include mobile units to make your opponents think twice before moving that precious caster into position.

If an opponent hits me hard with something like offensive debuffs (that actually tie my hands) I am likely to find myself leaning towards getting on objectives first turn - in which case I am sitting on those objectives and (that my opponent may not have been able to get to) with +1 save first turn (and if luck goes my way I get priority turn 2 and am likely sitting in a good spot at that point).  In such a case I could be ending turn 1 with a significant points advance with my opponent have to get me off objectives (and praying for double turn - the odds are against that).

The +1 save can be a big boast to going agro turn 1 anyway even if I'm debuffed.  It's all situational honestly - it just depends on what I'm up against (if it's a low rend army/unit that I am up against then I am likely hitting them first turn regardless to get their models off the table before next turn when my saves go back to normal).

In the case of LC vs TE - I think we have the edge in terms of taking control of the game turn 1 and that is what a TE player needs to be playing for in my view to be effective.  So list building needs to be considering mobility carefully to make that a reality.  A smart player can block a LC player from alphaing onto the board in a way that actually leads to them NOT getting points and that actually is a negative for LC in my view.  You are much more likely to find yourself playing on the "back foot" with TE in my view for these types of reasons.  TE is actually harder to play in my view for this as well.

That said please give some examples of lists that you have concerns would be a problem for us to go up against.

There are missions in where you dont even score points in t1. The thing is: even if your turn one is a beast, if one stays 1500 points out of the field you wont do much. Then he comes in and kills you something important. If he double turn you lose easily. Against TE everyone would probably start, charge you (keeper + termal rider), greenskins, fec, spell debuff you or kill the kemist (tzeench, anvilstrike, hallowearth). Either way, if you set up to much behind they will let you start without giving you much chance of do something very deadly.

Against those kind of set ups it s really hard to come back. Btw TE it s always a good option.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Raffonerd

[Ashman]

5 hours ago, Raffonerd said:

There are missions in where you dont even score points in t1. The thing is: even if your turn one is a beast, if one stays 1500 points out of the field you wont do much. Then he comes in and kills you something important. If he double turn you lose easily. Against TE everyone would probably start, charge you (keeper + termal rider), greenskins, fec, spell debuff you or kill the kemist (tzeench, anvilstrike, hallowearth). Either way, if you set up to much behind they will let you start without giving you much chance of do something very deadly.

Against those kind of set ups it s really hard to come back. Btw TE it s always a good option.

I get your points.  There is no perfect faction, sub faction, or list for every situation.  However, I do feel TE provides a lot of answers and flexibility to keep you in the game the majority of the time in the majority of situations.  Personally I feel that AOS has and will continue to head in a direction where no one faction or list can answer every single matchup they go up against - yet I do believe that TE is and will remain a strong option for quite some time despite that.  As will LC.

[dekay]

I honestly can't wait for someone to test out the hypotethical low drop TE list. If we base it on pistoliers and outriders, 3-4 drops is doable while still having some worth as a fighting force. I don't have nearly enough horses for now to try it without heavy proxying, but the idea is potentially effective.

[SwampHeart]

6 hours ago, Raffonerd said:

Against TE everyone would probably start, charge you (keeper + termal rider),

There's no reason to deploy in a fashion to allow this to happen without giving yourself the chance to punish the chargers with Handgunner stand and shoot. If your opponent chooses to have you go first you can reach a 38" range with Skyhooks or a 32" range with handgunners. The idea that being high drop and thus forced to go 2nd is bad for TE ignores the ability to run and shoot and the +3" of movement the army gets in turn one. I play HoS so I'm fully aware of the threat range of the army. I've also caught out multiple opponents now who thought the same way - they gave me the first turn under the auspices of me not being able to alpha with my shooting. I rarely have opponents who give me the first turn now.
 

6 hours ago, Raffonerd said:

kill the kemist (tzeench, anvilstrike, hallowearth)

Also very difficult because you get the opportunity to deploy in advantageous positions understanding their counters. The Khemist should never be the general so that your opponent can't take out your Hawk Eyed and attack buff at the same time. However the Khemist has a 3+ save on the first turn (2+ in cover) and quite readily can deploy outside the effective range of most threats because you only need to tag the edge of your company unit with a 10" range buff to pump skyhooks. 

TE isn't perfect, it has counters but none of them are hard counters. I regularly play against Shootcast, Big Waaagh, FEC, HoS, OBR, and Hallowheart - I've yet to put a TE army on the table that didn't have the ability to play the game. I've of course lost games due to bad plays on my part or great ones on my opponent but I've never been snowed under or blown out. TE has one of the best tool boxes available in CoS in my experience (I've played LC, HH, and TE at this point). You just have to build a list that gives your opponents bad outs more often than not. 

Edited December 20, 2019 by SwampHeart

[Gwendar]

2 hours ago, dekay said:

I honestly can't wait for someone to test out the hypotethical low drop TE list. If we base it on pistoliers and outriders, 3-4 drops is doable while still having some worth as a fighting force. I don't have nearly enough horses for now to try it without heavy proxying, but the idea is potentially effective.

Well, I run a Pistolier list with 5 drops. I would agree that it's potentially effective, but I don't rate it personally.. anytime I play it I find that I would much rather have a few hefty shooting and melee units to buff than some speedy horse-bois, hence why I'm likely going to be building into a Dwarf list next and shelving\selling parts of this. Fully buffed Pistoliers can do quite well honestly, even throwing them Aura of Glory makes their melee not too terrible but preference on that goes to PG obviously. Things could of course be changed around here to get the drops lower (you don't absolutely need an Annointed for example) but it's done well enough for me so far:

List

Spoiler

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Freeguild General on Griffon (320)
- General
- Shield & Runesword
- Trait: Hawk-eyed
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Artefact: Seerstone Amulet
- Spell: Lore of Eagles - Aura of Glory (Tempest's Eye Wizard)
Anointed (100)
Knight-Azyros (100)

Battleline
10 x Freeguild Pistoliers (200)
10 x Freeguild Pistoliers (200)
10 x Freeguild Pistoliers (200)

Units
30 x Phoenix Guard (420)

Battalions
Aetherguard Windrunners (120)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Emerald Lifeswarm (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 124
 

 

[Raffonerd]

3 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

There's no reason to deploy in a fashion to allow this to happen without giving yourself the chance to punish the chargers with Handgunner stand and shoot. If your opponent chooses to have you go first you can reach a 38" range with Skyhooks or a 32" range with handgunners. The idea that being high drop and thus forced to go 2nd is bad for TE ignores the ability to run and shoot and the +3" of movement the army gets in turn one. I play HoS so I'm fully aware of the threat range of the army. I've also caught out multiple opponents now who thought the same way - they gave me the first turn under the auspices of me not being able to alpha with my shooting. I rarely have opponents who give me the first turn now.
 

Also very difficult because you get the opportunity to deploy in advantageous positions understanding their counters. The Khemist should never be the general so that your opponent can't take out your Hawk Eyed and attack buff at the same time. However the Khemist has a 3+ save on the first turn (2+ in cover) and quite readily can deploy outside the effective range of most threats because you only need to tag the edge of your company unit with a 10" range buff to pump skyhooks. 

TE isn't perfect, it has counters but none of them are hard counters. I regularly play against Shootcast, Big Waaagh, FEC, HoS, OBR, and Hallowheart - I've yet to put a TE army on the table that didn't have the ability to play the game. I've of course lost games due to bad plays on my part or great ones on my opponent but I've never been snowed under or blown out. TE has one of the best tool boxes available in CoS in my experience (I've played LC, HH, and TE at this point). You just have to build a list that gives your opponents bad outs more often than not. 

Do you think is better TE the LC? Cause I remeber a LC list that you have played which was very good built up. I think that, on paper TE is better but not on the field. (at least in big tournament formats, where you are open to find strange stragegies. High amount of drops + all on the field can make you lose a game entirely; Initiative is the most important thing in aos. That's why in stormcast Hammers of sigmar is alway a good alternative even with toons of nerfs).

 

[SwampHeart]

33 minutes ago, Raffonerd said:

Do you think is better TE the LC?

Right now? Absolutely. If shooting continues to move up the meta then I may swap out to LC but until then TE is the correct answer. Heavy, buffed shooting is a major answer to a lot of the current boogymen in the meta (HoS and OBR for example), and TE is the city to bring it to bear. 

 

35 minutes ago, Raffonerd said:

...(at least in big tournament formats,...

TE has 5-0 at a major already - Da Boyz GT. 
 

36 minutes ago, Raffonerd said:

Initiative is the most important thing in aos.

It is but TE controls that. TE allows you to both run and shoot as well as giving you +3" of movement in turn one in addition to getting +1 to all run rolls. Again Handgunners have a 32" maximum reach so you have the flexibility to deploy 3-4" off the line (making your opponent's effective range on 24" maps 27-28") which means you've got the ability to out range their alpha strike. However if they choose to go second you can easily cover the gap and still deliver your ranged punch. That's why I like TE so much is they get to both avoid melee/magic alphas while being in range to deliver their own. It's like being a boxer with better reach than your opponent. 

[Gwydion]

Gwendar,

I like your dwarf list. It's pretty close to the one I'm looking to build. What are your thoughts on swapping the Warden King for a Knight Azyros? You lose out on that 4th attack for Hammerers but your accuracy goes up pretty much across the board. And it's not like Hammerers with "only" 3 attacks are particularly pillowfisted.

[Thiagoma]

Can use input on my elven list:

My local meta is Vanguard 1500 pts.

 

Anointed on Flame Phoenix (ignax)

Nomad prince (general, hawk eyed)

Sorceress (adjuntant) Celestial Visions

 

Sisters of the Watch x 20 (BL)

Darkshards x 20 (BL)

 

Phoenix Guard x 10

Phoenix Guard x 10

Shadow Warriors x 10

Shackles

 

Total 1500/1500

 

My Plan is to charge foward with the Phoenix to keep the enemy stuck in combat. The Nomad, Sorceress, Darkshards and Sisters are gona rush and fire, with the Shards in front to keep the sisters protected.

The Phoenix Guard to hold objectives or to keep enemies away from the archers and the Shadow Warriors as strategical deep strike.

 

Any feedback?

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, Gwydion said:

Gwendar,

I like your dwarf list. It's pretty close to the one I'm looking to build. What are your thoughts on swapping the Warden King for a Knight Azyros? You lose out on that 4th attack for Hammerers but your accuracy goes up pretty much across the board. And it's not like Hammerers with "only" 3 attacks are particularly pillowfisted.

Thanks! And yeah.. that was one of the biggest changes I was thinking of messing with honestly. 4 attacks on them can be over kill and just getting 3 from the spell will generally be enough as you've said.. or throw it on the Endrins. Either way having those RR 1's to hit is wonderful and his mobility gets him anywhere needed right away, and usually in cover for a 2+. I would say he's a better pick for Hero controlled objectives due to all this.

I think I'll probably go ahead and make the switch... I'll likely be building this after the new year as I currently am trying to offload my 30 Pistoliers and PG as I don't enjoy playing that list nearly as much as I would with this 😅

[Gwydion]

Yeah, Irondrakes that get reroll 1s on hit from Azyros and wound from Longbeards are kinda disgusting. 40 shots that hit 35/36ths of the time and wound on the same is just brutal.

[Gdead909]

Has anyone tried a stardrake or another big monster in as the general using the ASF trait. 
 

trying to build modules that can work independently 

[stratigo]

On 12/23/2019 at 9:46 AM, Gdead909 said:

Has anyone tried a stardrake or another big monster in as the general using the ASF trait. 
 

trying to build modules that can work independently 

Honestly, I’d warrant you want it on a griffin using a more mobile list

[dekay]

Arright, new Kharadron tome has been announced. Make your bets on what happens to khemist and arkanauts ; )

[Aelfric]

1 hour ago, dekay said:

Arright, new Kharadron tome has been announced. Make your bets on what happens to khemist and arkanauts ; )

Which is why I've been holding off on investing in them.

[dekay]

There's a hope that gunhaulers will become useful, though. Our battalion is good already, it'd make it even better. In general, fun thing about CoS - we get to be excited about new editions of battletomes other than our own ; )

[Aelfric]

14 minutes ago, dekay said:

There's a hope that gunhaulers will become useful, though. Our battalion is good already, it'd make it even better. In general, fun thing about CoS - we get to be excited about new editions of battletomes other than our own ; )

Even Stormcast - roll on the next Chamber!  My prediction; Covenant Chamber will be the re-imagined Devoted of Sigmar.

Edited December 25, 2019 by Aelfric
spelling

[SwampHeart]

On 12/25/2019 at 5:31 AM, dekay said:

Arright, new Kharadron tome has been announced. Make your bets on what happens to khemist and arkanauts ; )

Moved to 1 of each special weapon per unit, Khemist I honestly think stays pretty unchanged? For my build if Khemists stay the same I probably move to Endrinriggers instead of company. That said I expect all of the scrolls to improve in viability, I'm hoping that the other 2 special weapon options become actually good so then company are still rad. 

[stratigo]

As a jaded KO player, it will all be nerfs! All of it! The horror!

[Gwendar]

16 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

I'm hoping that the other 2 special weapon options become actually good so then company are still rad. 

I would like to think that as well, though it will obviously make them more of a jack of all trades unit rather than the T1 snipers that they are now. I'm curious to see how\if Endrins change, especially with the box set being themed around them in particular with Skywardens which... I'm a lot less keen on compared to Endrins. That said, the Drill Cannons (currently) have a place.

[adreal]

So, I have been playing living city since the tome came out, but right before a tournament I put up a photo of my army, and another player (who follows tournaments and can see strong combos and such) asked if the army was tempest eye.

Not to soon after that there was a comment in the living city discussion about how tempest eye fits wanderers better then living city, and as I want to play a wanderers army, I have given it some serious thought.

 

Anyways, below is my list, understand that I want to play wanderers, so it will be heavily wanderers, but some thoughts would be nice. Plan is to have the eternal guard out front, both units of sisters around the prince and move up to center field turn 1 to generate massive threat. Yes the sisters do loose some output from moving, but it's still 42 shots hitting and wounding on 2s, with mortals on 6s.

Dragon just flies up and seems big and scary, it can do work if left alone, but hopefully will draw attention (2+ save turn 1). 

Sisters of the thorn go for cp generation and wild riders counter charge, shadow warriors pop up and put pressure with the dragon or on a far flung objective

 

[zilberfrid]

On 12/25/2019 at 1:44 PM, Aelfric said:

Which is why I've been holding off on investing in them.

I haven't. Just purchased Thundrik's Profiteers and Grombrindel, who is also Kharadron when I'm finished with him.

[Aelfric]

22 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I haven't. Just purchased Thundrik's Profiteers and Grombrindel, who is also Kharadron when I'm finished with him.

Is this your first dip into KO or are you already invested?  I'm holding off as I don't want to get something that will just do the same as a unit I already have (also I have far too much to paint for Cities as it is) and I already have close to 4500 pts of painted Cities.  I do like the models, though, so no doubt I will find something that will justify a purchase  .

Would like to see the Grombrindel conversion when he's done.

[zilberfrid]

16 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

Is this your first dip into KO or are you already invested?  I'm holding off as I don't want to get something that will just do the same as a unit I already have (also I have far too much to paint for Cities as it is) and I already have close to 4500 pts of painted Cities.  I do like the models, though, so no doubt I will find something that will justify a purchase  .

Would like to see the Grombrindel conversion when he's done.

First dip into KO. The goblin will become a Halfling, I have already decided. Thundrik's profiteers is mostly to get an Aether Khemist and a feel of the army, I might actually use Adeptus Mechanicus for some of the KO units, mainly because of price.

[Aelfric]

44 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I might actually use Adeptus Mechanicus for some of the KO units, mainly because of price.

If only they still had Squats.