Tempest Eye Discussion

[frostfire]

In my experience against other cities, I could always find a way to hold the line, to rally a fight back,

But not against TE, the firepower and the resilience are just incomparable.😂

Arkanauts is just like a deathstar walking on the table, aiming units each turn and wiping it out like crazy. Not to mention a devastating doule turn.

Time will tell people how powerful the Hawk Eyed is...

[Ashman]

13 minutes ago, frostfire said:

In my experience against other cities, I could always find a way to hold the line, to rally a fight back,

But not against TE, the firepower and the resilience are just incomparable.😂

Arkanauts is just like a deathstar walking on the table, aiming units each turn and wiping it out like crazy. Not to mention a devastating doule turn.

Time will tell people how powerful the Hawk Eyed is...

Yup....

I fully expect that words like "flith", "disgusting", and "overpowered" will be associated with TE in the coming months....

For this jaded KO player, it might take some getting used to...  Wait...  Maybe not...  Lol

Edited December 11, 2019 by Ashman
Can't speil

[Rune]

First attempt at making a TE list. It'll be without KO for now. Please shred the list apart :D. I know things might change soon with the FAQ coming but.. having fun here.

 

List

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
 - City: Tempest's Eye

LEADERS
Freeguild General on Griffon (320)
- Greathammer
- Artefact : Zephyrite Banner 
Nomad Prince (120)
- General
- Command Trait : Hawk-eyed 
- Artefact : Patrician's Helm 
Sorceress (90)
- City Role : General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)

UNITS
30 x Sisters of the Watch (480)
30 x Phoenix Guard/Greatswords (420)
5 x Freeguild Pistoliers (100)
5 x Freeguild Pistoliers (100)
5 x Freeguild Pistoliers (100)
10 x Bleakswords (90)
- City Role : Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)

BATTALIONS
Aetherguard Windrunners (120)

ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Lauchon the Soulseeker (60)

 

If I'm forced to go first, I'll be able to get in range for shooting with the Launchon, which will likely land due to the sorceress sacrificing a bleaksword. The unit will be buffed and deal 35 wounds after save (assuming +4). Killing a big chunk of what's in range.

The PG (or Greatswords) together with the Prince and Sorceress will follow after. With the +3 movement on turn one they won't be far behind. At the least they can get a counter charge, if the opponent gets a double turn (which is why I am considering Greatswords over PG for the increased damage output).

The sisters will get the overwatch off and hopefully survive with the +4 save on turn 1.

If I go second, that's probably a benefit to this list overall.

 

Units

Bleakswords are just their for the sacrifice, retinue and bubblewrap around the sorceress/Nomad prince.

Pistoliers are there for the objective game and distraction.

PG are there because they are awesome. Could also consider greatswords as their damage output is insane. 

Prince is there for +1hit buff on sisters and good survivability

Griffon is there to have a decent large threat.

 

[Televiper11]

So Arkanaut's are a must-take?

[dekay]

Just now, Televiper11 said:

So Arkanaut's are a must-take?

Three answers to this:

1. Meta depending. If you don't face sv 3+ or better armies primarily, darkshards do the same job cheaper. If you fight ethereal opponents such as nighthaunt , they are straight up better as arkanaut rend goes to waste. Against, say, petrifex, their bolts kinda bounce off armour sadly.

2. Eh.. kinda? You can make a very good TE melee list, too, skipping entire arkanaut/darkshard/irondrake debate altogether.

3. If you don't have arkanaut models already, don't buy them yet. Kharadrons will be getting new battletome inf few months and, given how old the current one is, a lot might change. Everyone expects the option to max out on skyhooks to disappear, for example. And it's the main appeal of arkanauts in TE.

[Televiper11]

13 minutes ago, dekay said:

Three answers to this:

1. Meta depending. If you don't face sv 3+ or better armies primarily, darkshards do the same job cheaper. If you fight ethereal opponents such as nighthaunt , they are straight up better as arkanaut rend goes to waste. Against, say, petrifex, their bolts kinda bounce off armour sadly.

2. Eh.. kinda? You can make a very good TE melee list, too, skipping entire arkanaut/darkshard/irondrake debate altogether.

3. If you don't have arkanaut models already, don't buy them yet. Kharadrons will be getting new battletome inf few months and, given how old the current one is, a lot might change. Everyone expects the option to max out on skyhooks to disappear, for example. And it's the main appeal of arkanauts in TE.

Thanks. I have a box and was wondering if they would be worth building. Seems like I will hold off.

[Rune]

14 hours ago, dekay said:

Three answers to this:

1. Meta depending. If you don't face sv 3+ or better armies primarily, darkshards do the same job cheaper. If you fight ethereal opponents such as nighthaunt , they are straight up better as arkanaut rend goes to waste. Against, say, petrifex, their bolts kinda bounce off armour sadly.

2. Eh.. kinda? You can make a very good TE melee list, too, skipping entire arkanaut/darkshard/irondrake debate altogether.

3. If you don't have arkanaut models already, don't buy them yet. Kharadrons will be getting new battletome inf few months and, given how old the current one is, a lot might change. Everyone expects the option to max out on skyhooks to disappear, for example. And it's the main appeal of arkanauts in TE.

I like this reply, I feel like the conversation sometimes goes towards that if you don't have Arkanaut, then you are losing out massively. I get that the Arkanaut can do something. I'm not saying they are a bad unit. They are a great unit. I'm just not fully understanding the hype. 

30 Arkanaut with Hurricanum and Khemist costs 780 points.
50 Freeguild Handgunner or Crossbowmen and a Hurricanum costs 780 points. 
30 SotW with a Hurricanum costs 760 points.

Add a soulscream on top of that for all 3.

 

Damage vs save 3:
Arkanaut 9 Skyhook vs hero/monster with 24" = 17
Arkanaut 21 pistols vs hero/monster with 12" = 5

Arkanaut 9 Skyhook vs unit with 24"= 13
Arkanaut 21 pistols vs unit with 12"= 4

Crossbowmen 50 with 24"= 18.5
Handgunner 50 with 16"= 14

SotW 30 with 18"= 24

 

Damage vs save 6:
Arkanaut 9 Skyhook vs hero/monster= 25
Arkanaut 21 pistols vs hero/monster= 12

Arkanaut 9 Skyhook vs unit=  20
Arkanaut 21 pistols vs unit= 10

Crossbowmen 50= 46
Handgunner 50= 28

SotW 30 with 18"= 45

There are a lot to consider except for these numbers. Khemist also does its own damage at 10" range, Arkanauts are not penalized by moving. But you'll have trouble getting all 30 Arkanaut in range for a hero/monster as 21 of them just got 12" range. So likely the pistols will be shooting on a unit unless engaged. 

 

Handgunners got overwatch and Crossbowmen deal a lot of damage against high save. Another bonus is that they can be mixed 30/20. But Crossbowmen are very penalised by moving, Handgunners slightly penalised by moving, Freeguild units are larger and specifically Handgunners risk being out of range,

 

SotW deal top damage in all cases and has Overwatch.  Devent range. But are heavily penalized when moving.

Defensively, there are also things to consider. Freeguild has what's equivilant of 60 wounds and Arkanaut got 45. Freeguild is less vulnurable to mortal wounds than Arkanaut, but the big up for Arkanaut is that they can allocate the woudns to models who are using pistols. SotW are the most vulnurable.

What I am trying to get at is that CoS shooting is super balanced. There are pros and cons for each, you just need to be aware of what you are good at when you play. 

 

[Myrdin]

@Rune I like your take on it, but I think if you are choosing to go with Handgunner you might consider Outriders as well .

Depending on the D3 roll you deal at worst same amount of shots, at best you just tripled that amount. Granted their worse Hit chance does require a FG General in addition to Hurricanum, but if you are running mass handgunners I suppose one or both of those are already in the list anyway.

 

[dekay]

3 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Depending on the D3 roll you deal at worst same amount of shots, at best you just tripled that amount. Granted their worse Hit chance does require a FG General in addition to Hurricanum, but if you are running mass handgunners I suppose one or both of those are already in the list anyway.

And if you don't mind their worse to-hit, they're more mobile than any other of the mentioned. And they don't generate extra drops due to the battalion. Outriders are cool.

 

1 hour ago, Rune said:

30 Arkanaut with Hurricanum and Khemist costs 780 points.
50 Freeguild Handgunner or Crossbowmen and a Hurricanum costs 780 points. 
30 SotW with a Hurricanum costs 760 points.

But also, do you know what those calculations don't have? Darkshards!

40 darkshards and a hurricanum with wizard cost 680.

Vs. 3+ : 14,81

Vs 6+ : 37,04

And to match their points with others I can boost that to 17,28 and 43,21 with Azyors. And, contrary to handgunners, crossbowmen or sisters, they can do that while running. And in TE they don't even need a sorceress for that. That gives them effective range much greater than any of the others apart from arkanaut skyhooks (but then the pistols are not in use).

They fail againsh high, re-rollable saves hard, though, but remember about those guys ; ) Especially that that when it comes to a 'alpha strike shooters' niche, where handgunners, crossbowmen and sisters can't realy compete.

 

[zilberfrid]

17 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

@Rune I like your take on it, but I think if you are choosing to go with Handgunner you might consider Outriders as well .

Depending on the D3 roll you deal at worst same amount of shots, at best you just tripled that amount. Granted their worse Hit chance does require a FG General in addition to Hurricanum, but if you are running mass handgunners I suppose one or both of those are already in the list anyway.

If you use Outriders, you can reduce your drops significantly by just shoving them in the batallion. I don't know whether that's worth it to you, but it can be a consideration.

[Rune]

1 hour ago, Myrdin said:

@Rune I like your take on it, but I think if you are choosing to go with Handgunner you might consider Outriders as well .

Depending on the D3 roll you deal at worst same amount of shots, at best you just tripled that amount. Granted their worse Hit chance does require a FG General in addition to Hurricanum, but if you are running mass handgunners I suppose one or both of those are already in the list anyway.

 

That's a good shout and totally agree with dekay that Darkshards should also be considered. There is honestly great balancing on the shooting units.

Darkshards and Outriders for me both fall into the catagory of best units without a soulscream bridge/Lauchon.

Darkshards is basically the same as Crossbowmen, but they can move but have shorter range.

Outriders are compareable to Handgunners both damage wise and range wise. You get mobility, but you lose the overwatch. Another note is that they can be buffed further than the Handgunners though, as you also state (but I think you'd have a hard time fitting 25 horses into the range of the Hurricanum though, as Hurricanum buffs models not units). Didn't think about the batallion though. That's a really good point.

 

If it's decied to go for Darkshards and Outriders, and you skip the bridge, you can get 80 points of stuff instead.

Reading this, I would love to make a TE list with Darkshards actually. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Rune

[SwampHeart]

2 hours ago, Rune said:

...as you also state (but I think you'd have a hard time fitting 25 horses into the range of the Hurricanum though, as Hurricanum buffs models not units).

Its not too bad since Hurricanum isn't wholly within so as long as you can tag the tail end of a base you can get them in. 

[Ashman]

2 hours ago, Rune said:

That's a good shout and totally agree with dekay that Darkshards should also be considered. There is honestly great balancing on the shooting units.

Darkshards and Outriders for me both fall into the catagory of best units without a soulscream bridge/Lauchon.

Darkshards is basically the same as Crossbowmen, but they can move but have shorter range.

Outriders are compareable to Handgunners both damage wise and range wise. You get mobility, but you lose the overwatch. Another note is that they can be buffed further than the Handgunners though, as you also state (but I think you'd have a hard time fitting 25 horses into the range of the Hurricanum though, as Hurricanum buffs models not units). Didn't think about the batallion though. That's a really good point.

 

If it's decied to go for Darkshards and Outriders, and you skip the bridge, you can get 80 points of stuff instead.

Reading this, I would love to make a TE list with Darkshards actually. 

Don't forget the option of Grundstok Thunderers - they can retreat (and run) in combat phase.  Not saying they are better but that is another option available.  Strong if retreating onto objectives is an option you'd like to have (and potentially get some shots in on the next turn that you might otherwise not be able to get) 😉.

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, Ashman said:

Don't forget the option of Grundstok Thunderers - they can retreat (and run) in combat phase.  Not saying they are better but that is another option available.  Strong if retreating onto objectives is an option you'd like to have (and potentially get some shots in on the next turn that you might otherwise not be able to get) 😉.

And slingshotting them behind the lines (although probably best in living cities. Forest path -> shoot and move command ability -> charge -> retreat. Could easily cap an early objective) 

@Rune nice summary but I would just like to add, with arkanauts you get redundancy. You can take any other long range damage dealer but not one doesn’t degrade the first 21 wounds. Except arkanauts. 

[Gwendar]

3 hours ago, Rune said:

Reading this, I would love to make a TE list with Darkshards actually. 

I made one awhile back in October before making my (regrettable) Pistolier list. 5-5-5 Outriders + Battalion, 30 Darkshards, 30 Black Guard and a Sorceress at the core was great in TE and you on average would be getting 3-4 CP a turn to fuel an auto-run + run and charge on both units easily getting them in combat\shooting T1. If that failed, the backup was to use the Bridge combined with a Ghur Battlemage to give them a 6" charge across the Bridge. Of course it also included the standard Hurricanum, Hawk-eyed general and all that.. was pretty solid overall.

Still don't like it in favor of my upcoming Dwarf list though 😉

[WatcherintheWater]

I agree with everyone that shooting is pretty well balanced. Different roles for different units/builds. One of the big advantages of Arkanauts and Crossbows is the 31" or 32" threat range on turn 1 without spending a command point. Because a lot of times deployment is 24" apart, it's easy for opponents to hide characters from the shorter range units, force you to go first (since usually TE is pretty high drop), and give you nothing to shoot at. You don't get the Arkanaut pistols in range and the Crossbows only shoot once, but I find that the threat to be really big. And the Arkanauts esipicially can take out a couple key support heroes or a monster even without the pistols. You can use the bridge to get Darkshards or Handgunners in range too, but there is always the risk that it falis to cast, and it is an extra investment.  All this matters less in the 18" deployment scenarios, though.

 

One other question for the group: seems like people really like using the Hurricanium to buff shooting units. Do you really think it's worth the points? 220 seems steep for a +1 to hit.

Example: Let's say we have Arkanauts shooting at a 3+ save hero or monster. I'm using the points for a non-wizard Hurricanium.

30 Arkanauts + Khemist + Hurricanium (720 points):

17 wounds from the skyhooks, 8 from the pistols (remember they are 2 shots each)

40 Arkanauts + Khemist (620 points):

18 wounds from the skyhooks, 8.5 from the pistols

It's the same damage for 100 points less. I would imagine that the math works out similarly for the other units.

[Gwendar]

@WatcherintheWater I don't know about a standard Hurricanum, I've always been a bit iffy on that as you've shown. I 100% vouch for Wizard version that's only 60 points more though. You get +1 to hit, decent MW's out of it's shooting attack and it's inherent spells and it's reasonably mobile for all of that.. which I like.

I never use mine to buff just 1 unit as it often has the speed needed to get wherever it needs to be to give those benefits to the other side of the table if needed. Often enough I find it just fits and I don't ever really consider another unit to replace it with that would be worthwhile. Not that there isn't one, I just think it has a very justifiable role that's hard to part with.

[SwampHeart]

1 hour ago, WatcherintheWater said:

One other question for the group: seems like people really like using the Hurricanium to buff shooting units. Do you really think it's worth the points? 220 seems steep for a +1 to hit.

If you're only taking it for the +1 to hit its not worth it. But when you factor in just its really good MW output it starts to get much stronger, I always run mine as a wizard so I'm also getting a spell at +1 to cast as well. 

[Raffonerd]

On 12/11/2019 at 5:25 AM, frostfire said:

The AOS Reminder stat shows that many people choose Living city over instead of TE. 

That makes me confused. Is Living city tankier than TE or does Living city have stronger firepower for a shooty army?

Answer is yes. this happens because you are not able with cities of sigmar to decide who goes first. So LC avoids: first turn opponet charge, shoot, heavy casts by beeing out of game.

TE is great but if your opponents stars and for example goes heavy magic can kill debuff you hard. Living city hallows you to "safe guard" out of game 1500 points and take the initiative when you want it. Or they let you start, or a double turn can make them lose the game. (Without beeing able to counter you).

Edited December 19, 2019 by Raffonerd

[Ashman]

37 minutes ago, Raffonerd said:

Answer is yes. this happens because you are not able with cities of sigmar to decide who goes first. So LC avoids: first turn opponet charge, shoot, heavy casts by beeing out of game.

TE is great but if your opponents stars and for example goes heavy magic can kill debuff you hard. Living city hallows you to "safe guard" out of game 1500 points and take the initiative when you want it. Or they let you start, or a double turn can make them lose the game. (Without beeing able to counter you).

Well we get +1 saves first turn and movement bonus to help counteract some of this.  So logically a TE list should exploit that.  My thought is that in the example you site your opponent is going to need to potentially overinvest in casting which in turn can make them vulnerable from a points perspective (they can end up giving up a lot to go magic heavy).  A good TE list in my opinion should have a measurable degree of magic cancellation to not only counter that but in some cases exploit an oponents choice to do so (Runelords, Longbeards, other casters).  Investing points in heavy magic can be risky especially when the spells fail and/or get dispelled.  Most spells have a range requirement so every TE list should include mobile units to make your opponents think twice before moving that precious caster into position.

If an opponent hits me hard with something like offensive debuffs (that actually tie my hands) I am likely to find myself leaning towards getting on objectives first turn - in which case I am sitting on those objectives and (that my opponent may not have been able to get to) with +1 save first turn (and if luck goes my way I get priority turn 2 and am likely sitting in a good spot at that point).  In such a case I could be ending turn 1 with a significant points advance with my opponent have to get me off objectives (and praying for double turn - the odds are against that).

The +1 save can be a big boast to going agro turn 1 anyway even if I'm debuffed.  It's all situational honestly - it just depends on what I'm up against (if it's a low rend army/unit that I am up against then I am likely hitting them first turn regardless to get their models off the table before next turn when my saves go back to normal).

In the case of LC vs TE - I think we have the edge in terms of taking control of the game turn 1 and that is what a TE player needs to be playing for in my view to be effective.  So list building needs to be considering mobility carefully to make that a reality.  A smart player can block a LC player from alphaing onto the board in a way that actually leads to them NOT getting points and that actually is a negative for LC in my view.  You are much more likely to find yourself playing on the "back foot" with TE in my view for these types of reasons.  TE is actually harder to play in my view for this as well.

That said please give some examples of lists that you have concerns would be a problem for us to go up against.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Ashman
Kant speil

[Kramer]

1 minute ago, Ashman said:

That said please give some examples of lists that you have concerns would be a problem for us to go up agains

Petrifax elite  

personally I agree with most of your arguments but I would say that LC also offers turn one charge threats. I think that’s the big one. A durthu kitted out right is a big threat so your opponent needs to screen 360 instead of only forwards. (Which realistically is still not much a threat with TE). Without that turn one charge the comparison is 50/50 but the threat of a turn one charge forces mistakes   

[Rune]

3 hours ago, Gwendar said:

I made one awhile back in October before making my (regrettable) Pistolier list. 5-5-5 Outriders + Battalion, 30 Darkshards, 30 Black Guard and a Sorceress at the core was great in TE and you on average would be getting 3-4 CP a turn to fuel an auto-run + run and charge on both units easily getting them in combat\shooting T1. If that failed, the backup was to use the Bridge combined with a Ghur Battlemage to give them a 6" charge across the Bridge. Of course it also included the standard Hurricanum, Hawk-eyed general and all that.. was pretty solid overall.

Still don't like it in favor of my upcoming Dwarf list though 😉

Man didn't think of actually stacking +charge like that. How'd you get to 6"? Grif, Musician, Ghur and artifact is 5, still nuts.

 

Mind sharing your dwarf list?

[Ashman]

31 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Petrifax elite  

personally I agree with most of your arguments but I would say that LC also offers turn one charge threats. I think that’s the big one. A durthu kitted out right is a big threat so your opponent needs to screen 360 instead of only forwards. (Which realistically is still not much a threat with TE). Without that turn one charge the comparison is 50/50 but the threat of a turn one charge forces mistakes   

Yeah as a jaded KO player - I find myself less concerned about not getting turn 1 priority - whereas with KO it was a downer.  With TE I feel I am typically still in the game after turn even if I didn't get turn 1 priority.  But like virtually every army getting double turned into turn 2 by a solid player with decent list is rough - but hey that's a Hallmark of the AOS game.

I feel many players out there currently underestimate the power of the +1 save and +3 movement until they are on the receiving end of it being piloted by a decent player with a proper TE list.  There is a big difference in say riggers with a +3 save vice a +4 and SE heros/Ironbreakers with a +2 save vice a +3.  It can be a problem (and even shocking the first time) for our opponents cause they simply can't build a list to deal with TE properly without it in many ways hurting them against other factions.  I like the uniqueness TE provides vice LC which can be much like BOC for example.

I feel very good about running TE - but I would say that has a lot to do with what I want and like to run in my lists.  Not everyone is like me - we all have our preferences so I fully understand why someone would go with LC vice TE.  That's the beauty of our book - it seems to cater to whatever style the player likes/feels comfortable with based on city selection.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Ashman
Kant does gramma rigt

[Kramer]

5 minutes ago, Ashman said:

Yeah as a jaded KO player - I find myself less concerned about not getting turn 1 priority - whereas with KO it was a downer.  With TE I feel I am typically still in the game after turn even if I didn't get turn 1 priority.  But like virtually every army getting double turned into turn 2 by a solid player with decent list is rough - but hey that's a Hallmark of the AOS game.

I feel many players out there currently underestimate the power of the +1 save and +3 movement until they are on the receiving end of it being piloted by a decent player with a proper TE list.  There is a big difference in say riggers with a +3 save vice a +4 and SE heros/Ironbreakers with a +2 save vice a +3.  It can be a problem (and even shocking the first time) for our opponents cause they simply can't build a list to deal with TE properly without it in many ways hurting them against other factions.  I like the uniqueness TE provides vice LC which can be much like BOC for example.

I feel very good about running TE - but I would say that has a lot to do with what I want and like to run in my lists.  Not everyone is like me - we all have our preferences so I fully understand why someone would go with LC vice TE.  That's the beauty of our book - it seems to cater to whatever style the player likes/feels comfortable with based on city selection.

I’m with you. For all my arguments for living city I prefer TE. But part of it is I like my KO. But I can’t ally everything in I need to play my KO as i want to. TE helps with that. 
And I’m willing to wager most KO players have a dwarf collection. And this is just a great way to see it all on the table. 

[Gwendar]

2 hours ago, Rune said:

Man didn't think of actually stacking +charge like that. How'd you get to 6"? Grif, Musician, Ghur and artifact is 5, still nuts.

 

Mind sharing your dwarf list?

Black Guard inherently are getting +1, and the Ghur Battlemage can give them +2 for a total of +3". Throw them over the bifrost and you have a 6" charge. The Darkshards shouldn't need it as the auto-run 6 + run + shoot should be more than enough to get 30 of them in range.

And the list? Sure.. still working on it but I can't say it's 100% mine. I have a certain internet famous local guy who made up something similar (and about a year and a half ago I played his mixed order Dwarf list and got absolutely stomped on which stuck with me wanting to do the same thing someday 😉) so I just tweaked it a bit to my own preference. The credit largely goes to him:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Warden King (110)
- General
- Trait: Hawk-eyed
Runelord (90)
- Artefact: Seerstone Amulet
- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Spell: Lore of Eagles - Aura of Glory (Tempest's Eye Wizard)
Battlemage (90)
- Spell: Lore of Eagles - Aura of Glory (Tempest's Eye Wizard)
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
Aether-Khemist (140)

Battleline
30 x Longbeards (270)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
20 x Hammerers (280)
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)
20 x Irondrakes (300)

Units
9 x Endrinriggers (360)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Soulscream Bridge (80)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 119
 

At a glance I'm sure you see the pairings here:

 I don't want to run Arkanauts simply because I'm certain they'll lose their 3-per-10 special weapon bonus with their update, or forced to take 1/3 of each (such as Stormfiends do). I also really like the mobility of the Endrinriggers and their shooting isn't horrible.. but you take them for their melee in combination with a Khemist and\or Aura of Glory to delete a unit. They can largely work on their own on the outskirts as pressure.

Irondrakes work well across the bridge with the Runelord's Rend + King (Hawk-eyed) + Hurricanum nearby for the other unit deleter combo. 

Hammerers can also be given +1 attack from the King and another from Aura of Glory, taking them to 4 attacks each and.. well, I'm sure you can imagine the kind of damage that does. Combine that further with the same +2 charge on top of their +1 and you have a deathstar making a 6" charge over the bridge.

As for the Longbeards.. well that's just a giant screen with a 2+\3+ save. You can use them to dispel or even to give RR 1's to wound to a unit.

This is meant to be a very alpha-strike list and is centered around these pairs to make it happen. Best part about it is that it largely doesn't matter if you're made to go first or 2nd as it has the tools to deal with either situation. Of course, you depend on bridge going off to get damage out T1, but if not it should be easy to recover from on following turns with your 30 Longbeard screen.