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Brodylan

AoS 2 -Greywater Fastness Discussion

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Curious about how you find this particular list. I plan on essentially running all 3rd party miniatures to put this army together including conversions on the Hurricanum to be pulled by bears over horses and replacing the wizards with dwarves. In addition to running bear cannons instead of Helstrom Rocket Battery models. So before I spend about $650....how does it look?

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Greywater Fastness
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Warden King (110)
Runelord (90)
- City Role: General's Adjutant
Cogsmith (60) w/ Grudgeraker & Cogaxe
- General
- Command Trait: Drillmaster
- Artefact: Mastro Vivetti's Maginificent Macroscope
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Artefact: Steam-piston Plate Mail
- Lore of Smog: Descending Ash Cloud

Battleline
20 x Ironbreakers (260) w/ Pistol & Bomb
20 x Irondrakes (300) w/ Grudgehammer Torpedo
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields

Units
10 x Hammerers (140)

Artillery
Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)
Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)
Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)
Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)

Battalions
Greywater Artillery Company (120)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 114
 

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11 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

Curious about how you find this particular list. I plan on essentially running all 3rd party miniatures to put this army together including conversions on the Hurricanum to be pulled by bears over horses and replacing the wizards with dwarves. In addition to running bear cannons instead of Helstrom Rocket Battery models. So before I spend about $650....how does it look?

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Greywater Fastness
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Warden King (110)
Runelord (90)
- City Role: General's Adjutant
Cogsmith (60) w/ Grudgeraker & Cogaxe
- General
- Command Trait: Drillmaster
- Artefact: Mastro Vivetti's Maginificent Macroscope
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Artefact: Steam-piston Plate Mail
- Lore of Smog: Descending Ash Cloud

Battleline
20 x Ironbreakers (260) w/ Pistol & Bomb
20 x Irondrakes (300) w/ Grudgehammer Torpedo
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields

Units
10 x Hammerers (140)

Artillery
Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)
Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)
Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)
Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)

Battalions
Greywater Artillery Company (120)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 114
 

You are putting a lot of faith in your rocket batteries.  Which is concerning because in your setup, if they concentrate all 3 shots on a single target and are in range of the Cogsmith and Hurricanum they will do ~3 damage each before saves and assuming that there are no minus's to hit.  With the battalion, that means that you can get out a total of 24 damage before saves on turn 1, and 12 damage each turn afterwards.  And you are spending 700 points to accomplish this.

Is that really worth it?  To compare, for 710 points you could run a runelord, a battlemage/sorceress, a soulscream bridge, and a 30 man squad of irondrakes.  Assuming that they aren't in range for the hurricanum, that squad of irondrakes is going to deal more damage if they have to waddle forward on their stubby legs and shoot (~14 damage before saves), and double that if you can get the soulscream bridge off or your opponent foolishly comes in range.  Give them the hurricanum bonus you already have in your army and we are talking ~34 damage before saves.

If you are dedicated that you really, really want to run the artillery, then sure, go for it.  It is probably one of the better artillery focused lists available.  I would consider swapping something out (maybe the hammerers) to also bring a Lord-Ordinator so that your guns are hitting on a 2+ instead of a 3+ (adds ~3 more damage for the guns on average).  I would also consider bringing Ghoul Mere Ranger instead of Drillmaster, as your artillery already re-rolls 1's to hit for being near an engineer, which makes drillmaster kind of unnecessary.

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5 minutes ago, readercolin said:

You are putting a lot of faith in your rocket batteries.  Which is concerning because in your setup, if they concentrate all 3 shots on a single target and are in range of the Cogsmith and Hurricanum they will do ~3 damage each before saves and assuming that there are no minus's to hit.  With the battalion, that means that you can get out a total of 24 damage before saves on turn 1, and 12 damage each turn afterwards.  And you are spending 700 points to accomplish this.

Is that really worth it?  To compare, for 710 points you could run a runelord, a battlemage/sorceress, a soulscream bridge, and a 30 man squad of irondrakes.  Assuming that they aren't in range for the hurricanum, that squad of irondrakes is going to deal more damage if they have to waddle forward on their stubby legs and shoot (~14 damage before saves), and double that if you can get the soulscream bridge off or your opponent foolishly comes in range.  Give them the hurricanum bonus you already have in your army and we are talking ~34 damage before saves.

If you are dedicated that you really, really want to run the artillery, then sure, go for it.  It is probably one of the better artillery focused lists available.  I would consider swapping something out (maybe the hammerers) to also bring a Lord-Ordinator so that your guns are hitting on a 2+ instead of a 3+ (adds ~3 more damage for the guns on average).  I would also consider bringing Ghoul Mere Ranger instead of Drillmaster, as your artillery already re-rolls 1's to hit for being near an engineer, which makes drillmaster kind of unnecessary.

Interesting points! For some reason I had come to believe those Rocket Batteries were quite good. Perhaps it’s enough to snipe a key hero in the first phase though, like a Lord of Change for that Changehost list? They’ve only got a 4+ save and no FNP. 
 

I guess I like the idea of the threat turn 1 that can apply constant pressure and must be dealt with? 
 

I had brought the Hammerers for when they inevitably get into melee as I know Hammerers are absolutely BRUTAL even just 10 of them!

i took Drillmaster for the sake of my Irondrakes as well and really any of my ranged components.... it felt nice to sort of... have that reliability without needing to spend CP for it. 
 

From what it sounds like Artillery lists are weak and I’d be better suited just dropping them and the battalion and bringing more Dwarves? What about the Stormcast Eternal Ballistae? Are they any better? 
 

ive really never played Dwarves but I was attempting to go into their strengths which I had believed were good saves, strong shooting, very long range threats (artillery) and basically don’t run from battleshock so you can wear people down before they get to you (which if they just ignore you you’ll just kill everything even if slowly between the Irondrakes and Artillery). Also a bit of magic for protection (Mystic Shield) and a source of the ever desirable mortal wounds. 
 

You believe the 700 points could be better spent on... more Ironbreakers, Irondrakes and Hammerers then with more magic? At which point why run Greywater Fastness? I thought the entire point of the city was Artillery? Why wouldn’t I run like Living City to get in on the board edge or tempest eye? 

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3 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

Interesting points! For some reason I had come to believe those Rocket Batteries were quite good. Perhaps it’s enough to snipe a key hero in the first phase though, like a Lord of Change for that Changehost list? They’ve only got a 4+ save and no FNP. 
 

I guess I like the idea of the threat turn 1 that can apply constant pressure and must be dealt with? 
 

I had brought the Hammerers for when they inevitably get into melee as I know Hammerers are absolutely BRUTAL even just 10 of them!

i took Drillmaster for the sake of my Irondrakes as well and really any of my ranged components.... it felt nice to sort of... have that reliability without needing to spend CP for it. 
 

From what it sounds like Artillery lists are weak and I’d be better suited just dropping them and the battalion and bringing more Dwarves? What about the Stormcast Eternal Ballistae? Are they any better? 
 

ive really never played Dwarves but I was attempting to go into their strengths which I had believed were good saves, strong shooting, very long range threats (artillery) and basically don’t run from battleshock so you can wear people down before they get to you (which if they just ignore you you’ll just kill everything even if slowly between the Irondrakes and Artillery). Also a bit of magic for protection (Mystic Shield) and a source of the ever desirable mortal wounds. 
 

You believe the 700 points could be better spent on... more Ironbreakers, Irondrakes and Hammerers then with more magic? At which point why run Greywater Fastness? I thought the entire point of the city was Artillery? Why wouldn’t I run like Living City to get in on the board edge or tempest eye? 

While sniping key hero's is nice, or taking out key support pieces, this can just as effectively be done by infantry and the Soulscream Bridge.  For a turn 1 threat that can apply constant pressure and must be dealt with, this can also be done with infantry weapons and the soulscream bridge.  These are probably some of the big reasons why artillery isn't used much.  Also, for the Stormcast Ballista's, while they are nice, without the ability to deploy in Azur it is much more difficult to make use of their rapid fire ability, AND if you wanted to bring 4 of them you would have to bring 12 other non-stormcast units, both of which make them less than ideal for a Cities of Sigmar army.

In my opinion, there are 3 things that are attractive for a Greywater Fastness army.

The first is Gyrocopters.  Steam guns benefit from the +3" range, which means you have 11" range steam guns, which make it much easier for a few of them to go out and utterly decimate hordes.  Also on that front, each shot from the steam gun has a 1/3 chance of hitting, which means a squad of 3 on average will delete a horde of 1 wound models with a 6+ save.

The second is handgunners.  With a freeguild general around, handgunners can already be hitting on a 2+/2+.  Additionally, long rifles can hit out to 30".  With drillmaster, you can put a freeguild general near a squad of handgunners for a 2+rr1/2+/-1/1 damage profile, which is a surprisingly large amount of damage.  Additionally, with long rifles ignoring look out sir, you get models that are pretty good at sniping small support hero's too.  While is is possible to get this effect elsewhere, it usually costs a CP to get RR1 to hit, while drillmaster will allow you to easily effect several squads of handgunners at once if you so desire.

The last is Steam Tanks.  Now, lets be clear here, steam tanks are objectively bad.  Greywater Fastness doesn't do anywhere NEAR enough buffing to make them actually good.  However, if you want to run a steam tank army, I would totally make it a greywater fastness one, because a greywater steam tank is still a lot better than a non-greywater one.

If you aren't taking advantage of one of those 3 things, you will probably find other cities work better than greywater fastness.  If you are in love with the city and want to run it anyways, go for it, its your army.  But they were REAAAAALY cautious when they gave greywater its bonuses, and it shows.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/13/2020 at 6:26 AM, Rune said:

Please share some battlereports! Enjoy your list!

I have been playing abit on Tabletop simulator (Great in covid 19 times!) 

It has preformed exceptionally well against lists that depends alot on their monsters such as keepers of secrets or terrorgheist heavy buillds as it can take apart the infrastructure of their list without having to fight em. (Eye of hysh Terrorgheist? Eat 1+ to hit handgun bullets!)

The list has the damage to outgrind some of the tankier builds such as Warclans, Daugthers,  Ossiarchs and Fyreslayers, although I can't pick a fair fight against em.  Use the bridge only to fight parts of the army at the time... Divide et impera and all that.  (irondrakes are deffo a MVP vs ossiarchs)

...Seraphon with a good caster is a bad time... Board wide dispell with +2 or +3 dispell roll is a sad time for the bridge, however cannons are a silver lining as they can potentially take out something important in the seraphon list turn 1... But yea... in a team tourney I'd beg my team to match me vs something else than seraphon. 


Listwise it has really good management around CMD usage, and even with bad adjutant rolls you have CMD to spend.  The cannons preformed a role I was not expecting. Even though it has alot of drops my opponents usually takes the first turn not to get alpha striked. 
The sorceress + bleakswords is absolutely vital for getting thr bridge cast... This list would never work with a mage without + to casts... However this could be achived in Hallowheart aswell. 
...A larger screen of guard would be nice as Handgunners are bittersweet using as a screen, and I really, really, really wanna find 20p for a frostheart instead of a flamespyre. also considering to make the general general instead of the sorceress as she is hard to snipe and doesn't really have to live past turn 1 ... maybe the runelord so irondrakes become battleline aswell for some hidden objectives?

army.png.33e271afa299024309df4a7e02911d0b.png
List and army (on tabletop simulator!)

Edited by Eorek

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, readercolin said:

While sniping key hero's is nice, or taking out key support pieces, this can just as effectively be done by infantry and the Soulscream Bridge.  For a turn 1 threat that can apply constant pressure and must be dealt with, this can also be done with infantry weapons and the soulscream bridge.  These are probably some of the big reasons why artillery isn't used much.  Also, for the Stormcast Ballista's, while they are nice, without the ability to deploy in Azur it is much more difficult to make use of their rapid fire ability, AND if you wanted to bring 4 of them you would have to bring 12 other non-stormcast units, both of which make them less than ideal for a Cities of Sigmar army.

In my opinion, there are 3 things that are attractive for a Greywater Fastness army.

The first is Gyrocopters.  Steam guns benefit from the +3" range, which means you have 11" range steam guns, which make it much easier for a few of them to go out and utterly decimate hordes.  Also on that front, each shot from the steam gun has a 1/3 chance of hitting, which means a squad of 3 on average will delete a horde of 1 wound models with a 6+ save.

The second is handgunners.  With a freeguild general around, handgunners can already be hitting on a 2+/2+.  Additionally, long rifles can hit out to 30".  With drillmaster, you can put a freeguild general near a squad of handgunners for a 2+rr1/2+/-1/1 damage profile, which is a surprisingly large amount of damage.  Additionally, with long rifles ignoring look out sir, you get models that are pretty good at sniping small support hero's too.  While is is possible to get this effect elsewhere, it usually costs a CP to get RR1 to hit, while drillmaster will allow you to easily effect several squads of handgunners at once if you so desire.

The last is Steam Tanks.  Now, lets be clear here, steam tanks are objectively bad.  Greywater Fastness doesn't do anywhere NEAR enough buffing to make them actually good.  However, if you want to run a steam tank army, I would totally make it a greywater fastness one, because a greywater steam tank is still a lot better than a non-greywater one.

If you aren't taking advantage of one of those 3 things, you will probably find other cities work better than greywater fastness.  If you are in love with the city and want to run it anyways, go for it, its your army.  But they were REAAAAALY cautious when they gave greywater its bonuses, and it shows.

So you would recommend more infantry, a soul-scream bridge and dumping Artillery in order to pick up Gyrocoptors? 

Or rather, I suppose, what's the best city to support an all-dwarf army? I was going to swap out the crew on the helstrom batteries and the human wizards to be dwarves as it were, and I'm really trying to play essentially a dispossessed army, either that or chaos dwarves (for the artillery and shooting [fireglaives] with a bit of punch [dragon ogors]). 

Again, having not played Dwarves, I thought their playstyle was to hit them from really far away to make them come to you (Artillery), then hit them in the mid-range (Irondrakes) even worse, bubble up with a shield wall of Ironbreakers to absorb charges and the like, then swing back with Hammerers and crush their nasty charge unit (like for instance a 6 block of Gore-Gruntas, or 40 plague rats, or an Idol of Gorkamorka). 

Edited by Ravinsild

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58 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

So you would recommend more infantry, a soul-scream bridge and dumping Artillery in order to pick up Gyrocoptors? 

Or rather, I suppose, what's the best city to support an all-dwarf army? I was going to swap out the crew on the helstrom batteries and the human wizards to be dwarves as it were, and I'm really trying to play essentially a dispossessed army, either that or chaos dwarves (for the artillery and shooting [fireglaives] with a bit of punch [dragon ogors]). 

Again, having not played Dwarves, I thought their playstyle was to hit them from really far away to make them come to you (Artillery), then hit them in the mid-range (Irondrakes) even worse, bubble up with a shield wall of Ironbreakers to absorb charges and the like, then swing back with Hammerers and crush their nasty charge unit (like for instance a 6 block of Gore-Gruntas, or 40 plague rats, or an Idol of Gorkamorka). 

The general dwarf playstyle is to put heavily armored units in front of their opponents and dare them to try to break through, and then put a solid threat behind that wall to punish them if they are foolish enough to do so.

Frequently the way this plays out is to put a line of longbeards down with irondrakes behind.  The longbeards (with shields) form a solid wall with a 3+ save, and the irondrakes behind benefit from re-roll 1's to wound.  That being said, if you want to make that threat be a block of hammerers, that is definitely a valid threat as well.  Instead of longbeards, you can run ironbreakers instead, but most people don't think that the extra attack of the ironbreakers over the longbeards make them worth running when they are acting as nothing more than a screen or an anvil.

As for what cities best support this?

Greywater is fine if you want to bring a wing or two of gryocopters, as the rest of the line can sometimes struggle with massed hordes.  Bringing 2 rocket batteries isn't a terrible idea either as that gives you a unit that can snipe out small hero's, since a pair of them will do an average of 6 damage to a 5+ save (assuming that they have a +1 to hit and re-roll 1's from somewhere).  Keep in mind - 2 rocket batteries at 260 points is a LOT easier to fit into your army than trying to fit 700 points of them in, and 2 of them provide a valid use case rather than trying to make them a main damage dealer like they would have to be if you brought 4 + battalion.

Tempest Eye and Hallowheart are generally the best cities for the more traditional dwarf playstyle of sticking irondrakes behind longbeards though.  Tempest Eye gives you extra speed as a backup plan in case you can't get your bridge off, while between a hurricanum and hawk eyed you can get them to a 2+/2+ profile, re-rolling 1's to hit from a command point and re-rolling 1's to wound from the longbeards (note, this means that every 10 drakes will put out ~20 damage on average, and keep in mind that the rend buff from the runelords stacks, so that can be at a -3 rend pretty easily).  Hallowheart can do this very similarly, but requires a spell for the +1 to wound, but in exchange can get spells off MUCH easier.

After Tempest Eye and Hallowheart, Living City is probably the third best choice, as it gives you a way to get your drakes in range without needing a bridge.  Once they are on the battlefield though, living city becomes significantly worse, as none of its other bonuses really help, and you are still stuck with slow dwarfs.

If you are more interested in a Melee heavy dwarf playstyle, then Tempest Eye and Hammerhall are the top 2 choices.  Tempest Eye for the extra movement bonuses, and Hammerhall because of the ability to pile in and attack twice if you can get into enemy territory.  Hallowheart also works ok if you are trying to do a bridge+charge (9" away, get a +1 to charge from musician, can get another +2 from a battlemage, and maybe another +2 from cogs).  And lastly Living city works ok if you are willing to bring the Cogs.

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1 hour ago, readercolin said:

The general dwarf playstyle is to put heavily armored units in front of their opponents and dare them to try to break through, and then put a solid threat behind that wall to punish them if they are foolish enough to do so.

Frequently the way this plays out is to put a line of longbeards down with irondrakes behind.  The longbeards (with shields) form a solid wall with a 3+ save, and the irondrakes behind benefit from re-roll 1's to wound.  That being said, if you want to make that threat be a block of hammerers, that is definitely a valid threat as well.  Instead of longbeards, you can run ironbreakers instead, but most people don't think that the extra attack of the ironbreakers over the longbeards make them worth running when they are acting as nothing more than a screen or an anvil.

As for what cities best support this?

Greywater is fine if you want to bring a wing or two of gryocopters, as the rest of the line can sometimes struggle with massed hordes.  Bringing 2 rocket batteries isn't a terrible idea either as that gives you a unit that can snipe out small hero's, since a pair of them will do an average of 6 damage to a 5+ save (assuming that they have a +1 to hit and re-roll 1's from somewhere).  Keep in mind - 2 rocket batteries at 260 points is a LOT easier to fit into your army than trying to fit 700 points of them in, and 2 of them provide a valid use case rather than trying to make them a main damage dealer like they would have to be if you brought 4 + battalion.

Tempest Eye and Hallowheart are generally the best cities for the more traditional dwarf playstyle of sticking irondrakes behind longbeards though.  Tempest Eye gives you extra speed as a backup plan in case you can't get your bridge off, while between a hurricanum and hawk eyed you can get them to a 2+/2+ profile, re-rolling 1's to hit from a command point and re-rolling 1's to wound from the longbeards (note, this means that every 10 drakes will put out ~20 damage on average, and keep in mind that the rend buff from the runelords stacks, so that can be at a -3 rend pretty easily).  Hallowheart can do this very similarly, but requires a spell for the +1 to wound, but in exchange can get spells off MUCH easier.

After Tempest Eye and Hallowheart, Living City is probably the third best choice, as it gives you a way to get your drakes in range without needing a bridge.  Once they are on the battlefield though, living city becomes significantly worse, as none of its other bonuses really help, and you are still stuck with slow dwarfs.

If you are more interested in a Melee heavy dwarf playstyle, then Tempest Eye and Hammerhall are the top 2 choices.  Tempest Eye for the extra movement bonuses, and Hammerhall because of the ability to pile in and attack twice if you can get into enemy territory.  Hallowheart also works ok if you are trying to do a bridge+charge (9" away, get a +1 to charge from musician, can get another +2 from a battlemage, and maybe another +2 from cogs).  And lastly Living city works ok if you are willing to bring the Cogs.

4 Rocket Batteries is only 520 points though which is roughly 1/4th of my army, still a lot, but less than 700. Unless you mean 520 + 120 for the battalion and then +60 for the Cogsmith? I'd been looking at Gyrocoptors though because they actually go fast, they super cheap (80 points!!) and have nice shooting and the bombing ability. So maybe drop 2 Rocket Batteries for 2 Gyrocoptors (or 1 unit of 2?) if I want to stay Greywater, or take the whole thing down (Battalion, Rocket Batteries, etc..) and go Tempest Eye? 

I was actually interesting in martial + ranged and I genuinely thought Artillery was more of a threat than it apparently is. I had used the AOS math tool to figure any enemy within 16'' would be taking about 50 wounds (4+ save) between my Artillery and my Irondrakes (and the Ironbreaker pistol and bomb...and cogsmith rifle, etc...) 

I really thought a rock solid shield wall (Ironbreakers maybe even buffed with Ancestral Shields and Mystic Shield) covering a battery of artillery and Irondrakes could pretty much tear most things apart. 

Right now I play Orruk Warclans too so you say things are expensive that to me are quite cheap, haha. I'm used to small armies with a big punch (Fully buffed Gore-Gruntas can wipe almost anything in 1 go). The most cheap thing we have is 110 points so i saw people calling a Warden King expensive and I was like ??? he's dirt cheap and everything else is about the same or cheaper! There's no Megaboss on Maw-Krusha centerpiece hogging 460 points, look at all these free points!! lol

However I notice my Orruk Warclans lose to Tzeentch and Bonereapers and many armies pretty badly as I run them pure Ironjawz. I do want to try BIG WAAAGH for the 6+ FNP, but the Runelord prayer attracted me to them, and Ironbreakers with a bit of help can be as tough as ArdBoyz and a bit killier to boot! 

Then of course Ironjawz has 0 ranged threats (1 shooting attack from maw-krusha, and I don't run big waaagh and don't have any arrow boyz and Orruk Warclans don't have artillery anyway) so I was like....if I can have just as killy Ironbreakers as ArdBoyz, and Hammerers are essentially as powerful as Gore-Gruntas....then put a ton of shooting overtop of that! I can maybe shoot a Lord of Change before he does that Infernal Gateway spell and deletes a ton of my units...or really blow up his screen of pink horrors to open the way for my Hammerers to actually put a dent on the LOC from AFAR (Artillery, Irondrakes) so by the time they get there it's not 40+ wounds of constantly regenerating bubble gum all shooting a ****** ton -_- 

 

Not to mention how tough Ogor Mawtribes are, especially a Stonehorn! My 6 fully buffed Gore-Gruntas put like 2 wounds through on a Stonehorn guy and he just destroyed them the next turn. Well maybe with Dwarves I could shoot it and force it to charge my shieldwall who can hopefully not all completely die and keep shooting it and then fight it. I feel pretty hamstrung by lack of options in my Orruk Warclans, so I was really attracted to Dwarves because they have really good shooting, and COS can bring Stormcast Eternals whose artillery I knew was good, COS had artillery, amazing dwarf shooting and also apparently a ton of magic so I could participate in all 3 phases of the game instead of essentially putting all my eggs in 1 fight phase basket that's withered away by enemy magic and shooting and loses to attrition pretty bad. 

Edited by Ravinsild

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19 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

4 Rocket Batteries is only 520 points though which is roughly 1/4th of my army, still a lot, but less than 700. Unless you mean 520 + 120 for the battalion and then +60 for the Cogsmith? I'd been looking at Gyrocoptors though because they actually go fast, they super cheap (80 points!!) and have nice shooting and the bombing ability. So maybe drop 2 Rocket Batteries for 2 Gyrocoptors (or 1 unit of 2?) if I want to stay Greywater, or take the whole thing down (Battalion, Rocket Batteries, etc..) and go Tempest Eye? 

I was actually interesting in martial + ranged and I genuinely thought Artillery was more of a threat than it apparently is. I had used the AOS math tool to figure any enemy within 16'' would be taking about 50 wounds (4+ save) between my Artillery and my Irondrakes (and the Ironbreaker pistol and bomb...and cogsmith rifle, etc...) 

I really thought a rock solid shield wall (Ironbreakers maybe even buffed with Ancestral Shields and Mystic Shield) covering a battery of artillery and Irondrakes could pretty much tear most things apart. 

Right now I play Orruk Warclans too so you say things are expensive that to me are quite cheap, haha. I'm used to small armies with a big punch (Fully buffed Gore-Gruntas can wipe almost anything in 1 go). The most cheap thing we have is 110 points so i saw people calling a Warden King expensive and I was like ??? he's dirt cheap and everything else is about the same or cheaper! There's no Megaboss on Maw-Krusha centerpiece hogging 460 points, look at all these free points!! lol

However I notice my Orruk Warclans lose to Tzeentch and Bonereapers and many armies pretty badly as I run them pure Ironjawz. I do want to try BIG WAAAGH for the 6+ FNP, but the Runelord prayer attracted me to them, and Ironbreakers with a bit of help can be as tough as ArdBoyz and a bit killier to boot! 

Then of course Ironjawz has 0 ranged threats (1 shooting attack from maw-krusha, and I don't run big waaagh and don't have any arrow boyz and Orruk Warclans don't have artillery anyway) so I was like....if I can have just as killy Ironbreakers as ArdBoyz, and Hammerers are essentially as powerful as Gore-Gruntas....then put a ton of shooting overtop of that! I can maybe shoot a Lord of Change before he does that Infernal Gateway spell and deletes a ton of my units...or really blow up his screen of pink horrors to open the way for my Hammerers to actually put a dent on the LOC from AFAR (Artillery, Irondrakes) so by the time they get there it's not 40+ wounds of constantly regenerating bubble gum all shooting a ****** ton -_- 

 

Not to mention how tough Ogor Mawtribes are, especially a Stonehorn! My 6 fully buffed Gore-Gruntas put like 2 wounds through on a Stonehorn guy and he just destroyed them the next turn. Well maybe with Dwarves I could shoot it and force it to charge my shieldwall who can hopefully not all completely die and keep shooting it and then fight it. I feel pretty hamstrung by lack of options in my Orruk Warclans, so I was really attracted to Dwarves because they have really good shooting, and COS can bring Stormcast Eternals whose artillery I knew was good, COS had artillery, amazing dwarf shooting and also apparently a ton of magic so I could participate in all 3 phases of the game instead of essentially putting all my eggs in 1 fight phase basket that's withered away by enemy magic and shooting and loses to attrition pretty bad. 

I am counting the cogsmith and the battalion in with the price of your rockets.  1 turn of shooting twice is... not really worth it in my opinion.  And the benefit of the cogsmith (your artillery gets to re-roll 1's to hit) is... already gotten if you are running drillmaster.

Go ahead and use your AOS math tool (I like using this one: https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/) and break up what is doing what damage.  Yes, any enemy within 16" will be taking about 50 wounds between all your guns.  But where is the damage coming from?  And how resilient are your threats?

~27 damage is coming from your 20 irondrakes.  24 is coming from your rocket batteries turn 1.  The rest is coming from potshots from other units.  However, what happens if someone can snipe that cogsmith?  He's a 5 wound model with a 5+ save. You lose your RR1's on your irondrakes, which drops you down to ~23 damage, which hurts a little but isn't a major blow to the unit.  But now your rockets go from ~24 damage to ~10.  Ouch.

What I recommend you do is take a look and compile a quick list of what armies you regularly play against.  What are their threats?  What can they do?  Then, try to build an army that, on paper at least, counters that.  You were already trying to do that by focusing on how much you can blow up turn 1 with your artillery + irondrakes.  But then ask yourself - what if they go first.  Can you still pull off your game plan?  What can their army do to ruin your game plan in a single turn before you get to do anything?  And then, if they let you go first, can you do enough damage to make them struggle if they get a double turn?

Don't plan past turn 1/2, because each game is going to vary depending upon mission, dice rolls, luck, etc. 

But this is why I am not a huge fan of the artillery battalion.  Yes, it can do a good bit of damage turn 1 if you get to unleash it on your opponent.  However, you are paying 180 points for the battalion + cogsmith, and the weak link here is that cogsmith - if he dies, you just wasted all of those points, and lose a major portion of your gameplan.  If you are going to be facing down something that can't deal with him (Ironjaws, Slaves to Darkness, Khorne, etc.) then it is a great investment and will allow you to take out centerpiece units/models with ease.  If you face something that can deal with him (anything with halfway decent shooting, or a strong magic phase that can reach him), then it is a waste of points.  That is too swingy for me to want to rely on, when there are other more consistent threats that you can use.

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3 hours ago, readercolin said:

I am counting the cogsmith and the battalion in with the price of your rockets.  1 turn of shooting twice is... not really worth it in my opinion.  And the benefit of the cogsmith (your artillery gets to re-roll 1's to hit) is... already gotten if you are running drillmaster.

Go ahead and use your AOS math tool (I like using this one: https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/) and break up what is doing what damage.  Yes, any enemy within 16" will be taking about 50 wounds between all your guns.  But where is the damage coming from?  And how resilient are your threats?

~27 damage is coming from your 20 irondrakes.  24 is coming from your rocket batteries turn 1.  The rest is coming from potshots from other units.  However, what happens if someone can snipe that cogsmith?  He's a 5 wound model with a 5+ save. You lose your RR1's on your irondrakes, which drops you down to ~23 damage, which hurts a little but isn't a major blow to the unit.  But now your rockets go from ~24 damage to ~10.  Ouch.

What I recommend you do is take a look and compile a quick list of what armies you regularly play against.  What are their threats?  What can they do?  Then, try to build an army that, on paper at least, counters that.  You were already trying to do that by focusing on how much you can blow up turn 1 with your artillery + irondrakes.  But then ask yourself - what if they go first.  Can you still pull off your game plan?  What can their army do to ruin your game plan in a single turn before you get to do anything?  And then, if they let you go first, can you do enough damage to make them struggle if they get a double turn?

Don't plan past turn 1/2, because each game is going to vary depending upon mission, dice rolls, luck, etc. 

But this is why I am not a huge fan of the artillery battalion.  Yes, it can do a good bit of damage turn 1 if you get to unleash it on your opponent.  However, you are paying 180 points for the battalion + cogsmith, and the weak link here is that cogsmith - if he dies, you just wasted all of those points, and lose a major portion of your gameplan.  If you are going to be facing down something that can't deal with him (Ironjaws, Slaves to Darkness, Khorne, etc.) then it is a great investment and will allow you to take out centerpiece units/models with ease.  If you face something that can deal with him (anything with halfway decent shooting, or a strong magic phase that can reach him), then it is a waste of points.  That is too swingy for me to want to rely on, when there are other more consistent threats that you can use.

So I guess change the city, and run something more akin to this?

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Warden King (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Hawk-eyed
- Artefact: Seerstone Amulet
Runelord (90)
- City Role: General's Adjutant
Runelord (90)
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Lore of Eagles: Aura of Glory

Battleline
20 x Longbeards (220)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
20 x Irondrakes (300)
20 x Hammerers (280)

Units
4 x Fulminators (480)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Emerald Lifeswarm (50)
Soulscream Bridge (80)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 106

Where I could replace the Fulminators with say, Demi-Gryph Knights or Gyrocoptors for an element of fast support much like Gore-Gruntas, which hit super hard and clear screen or outright destroy key pieces? 

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11 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

So I guess change the city, and run something more akin to this?

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Warden King (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Hawk-eyed
- Artefact: Seerstone Amulet
Runelord (90)
- City Role: General's Adjutant
Runelord (90)
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Lore of Eagles: Aura of Glory

Battleline
20 x Longbeards (220)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
20 x Irondrakes (300)
20 x Hammerers (280)

Units
4 x Fulminators (480)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Emerald Lifeswarm (50)
Soulscream Bridge (80)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 106

Where I could replace the Fulminators with say, Demi-Gryph Knights or Gyrocoptors for an element of fast support much like Gore-Gruntas, which hit super hard and clear screen or outright destroy key pieces? 

Changes I would make here:

I would split the longbeards into 2 screens of 10.  You already aren't winning wars on drops, and they don't get any bonuses from unit size, while 2 units of 10 gives you better screening potential.  Alternatively, keep them as a squad of 20 and make them your Honored Retinue.

I would make the Runelord the general.  With hawk-eyed, he wants to stay near the irondrakes, while the warden king wants to stick closer to the hammerers.

Lastly, I'm not entirely sold on the Fulminators.  I have a squad of 4 myself that I've been testing out (though in the living city so they can come on, shoot, and then move up for the charge), and I've been a little underwhelmed by them.  Feel free to try them out and see how that works out for you.  That being said, if you are going tempest eye... why not bring some Kharadron Overlords?  An ironclad backed up by the hurricanum could be hilarious.

Aside from those relatively minor changes though, it looks like a solid place to start with a dwarven list.  

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3 hours ago, readercolin said:

I am counting the cogsmith and the battalion in with the price of your rockets.  1 turn of shooting twice is... not really worth it in my opinion.  And the benefit of the cogsmith (your artillery gets to re-roll 1's to hit) is... already gotten if you are running drillmaster.

Go ahead and use your AOS math tool (I like using this one: https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/) and break up what is doing what damage.  Yes, any enemy within 16" will be taking about 50 wounds between all your guns.  But where is the damage coming from?  And how resilient are your threats?

~27 damage is coming from your 20 irondrakes.  24 is coming from your rocket batteries turn 1.  The rest is coming from potshots from other units.  However, what happens if someone can snipe that cogsmith?  He's a 5 wound model with a 5+ save. You lose your RR1's on your irondrakes, which drops you down to ~23 damage, which hurts a little but isn't a major blow to the unit.  But now your rockets go from ~24 damage to ~10.  Ouch.

What I recommend you do is take a look and compile a quick list of what armies you regularly play against.  What are their threats?  What can they do?  Then, try to build an army that, on paper at least, counters that.  You were already trying to do that by focusing on how much you can blow up turn 1 with your artillery + irondrakes.  But then ask yourself - what if they go first.  Can you still pull off your game plan?  What can their army do to ruin your game plan in a single turn before you get to do anything?  And then, if they let you go first, can you do enough damage to make them struggle if they get a double turn?

Don't plan past turn 1/2, because each game is going to vary depending upon mission, dice rolls, luck, etc. 

But this is why I am not a huge fan of the artillery battalion.  Yes, it can do a good bit of damage turn 1 if you get to unleash it on your opponent.  However, you are paying 180 points for the battalion + cogsmith, and the weak link here is that cogsmith - if he dies, you just wasted all of those points, and lose a major portion of your gameplan.  If you are going to be facing down something that can't deal with him (Ironjaws, Slaves to Darkness, Khorne, etc.) then it is a great investment and will allow you to take out centerpiece units/models with ease.  If you face something that can deal with him (anything with halfway decent shooting, or a strong magic phase that can reach him), then it is a waste of points.  That is too swingy for me to want to rely on, when there are other more consistent threats that you can use.

Luckily I have a lot of practice screening against pretty potent shooting (Tzeentch Changehost can teleport those Flamers anywhere without a roll or anything), and I've learned to screen out my best stuff more than 18'' by surround them with a huge wall of ArdBoyz that inevitably get shot instead. 

I think the Lord of Change's magic and the Flamers of Tzeentch are the BIGGEST threat in the Changehost army, and they each have an 18'' range (Further than my Irondrakes, but much less than 39'' of Artillery). 

Bonesplittaz my friend typically tries to clear screens with Arrowboys, but they've got an 18'' range so won't be clearing on turn 1 more than likely. He likes to clear screens with his Arrowboys to make room to hit stuff with the Rogue Idol fully buffed. I think even going second he hasn't really got anything that can touch my Artillery, but I could snipe his Wardokks and Wurgog Prophets well enough to cripple any army synergy. 

Against Ogors they've got some shooting too, but it's pretty bad and never seems to actually hit. Their main threat is how tanky they are and how hard they hit up close, but naturally deposing leaders makes things start to crumble....except Stonehorns. Those are so so hard to kill... Tyrants and Butchers, however, not so bad. The two Ogor players like to screen with battleshock immune Gnoblars or put them on objectives. 

Sylvaneth might hard counter me though, because their trees block LOS and he likes to hide in trees. Granted he can't reach me with his stuff being about 18'', but he can spam trees on the objectives and hide in the trees and make me have to charge into the trees and I don't think 1 unit of Hammerers can carry a game like that and the Artillery is basically useless and so is the Irondrakes. 

I've got a lot of Chaos players in my group, at least 2 Khorne players, 1 Slaanesh player, 1 Tzeentch player and Tzeentch is the most threatening to my Orruk Warclans for sure. There's also 2 Nurgle players, but one seems to be going into Skaven + Nurgle and the other just runs normal nurgle. I know they've run the 3 Greater Unclean ones with the casting list before, and one has at least 40 plague monks. Aside from that it's been awhile since I've played them. 

We do have Ossiarch Bonereapers player but I haven't had the (mis?)fortune of playing him yet, although I've heard nasty things about how OP they are. 

I also regularly spar against an Idoneth Deepkin player who can guarantee fighting Turn 3, and move something like 27 inches Turn 2 with being able to add 3 to movement (moving I think 17) adding maybe +1 to run and running, or maybe he auto gets 6's to run or something, then can charge. Massive threat range turn 1, but turn 1 nothing really except positioning. Still, Eels are terrifying. 

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9 minutes ago, readercolin said:

Changes I would make here:

I would split the longbeards into 2 screens of 10.  You already aren't winning wars on drops, and they don't get any bonuses from unit size, while 2 units of 10 gives you better screening potential.  Alternatively, keep them as a squad of 20 and make them your Honored Retinue.

I would make the Runelord the general.  With hawk-eyed, he wants to stay near the irondrakes, while the warden king wants to stick closer to the hammerers.

Lastly, I'm not entirely sold on the Fulminators.  I have a squad of 4 myself that I've been testing out (though in the living city so they can come on, shoot, and then move up for the charge), and I've been a little underwhelmed by them.  Feel free to try them out and see how that works out for you.  That being said, if you are going tempest eye... why not bring some Kharadron Overlords?  An ironclad backed up by the hurricanum could be hilarious.

Aside from those relatively minor changes though, it looks like a solid place to start with a dwarven list.  

1) That makes sense, I'm used to about 30 Ardboyz of Screening split into 2 sets of 15, so 2 sets of 10 Longbears feels right. I also prefer MSU because moving too many models at once annoys me and I'm a slow painter, so I like to keep as tight a list as possible. 

2) That makes sense. Runelord General does complement being stationary well. I figured I'd maybe be castling and planting my Warden King for battleshock immunity? IDK

3) Yeah I don't even know tbh. I was just looking at quick moving hard hitting Calvary and checked out Gyrocoptors, Demi-Gryph Knights, Cold-One Knights and Fuliminators so I'm not super attached to them or anything. More like just picked them because I don't have any heroes fast enough to support them so I figured they ought to be a self-sustaining unit that can just hit flanks or clear screens or even just quickly snag objectives. I read Dwarves are complimented by very fast moving elements. 

4) Quite literally I just don't know enough about Kharadron Overlords to have remember them lol. I don't know what's good or bad or what anything does with them. 

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5 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

3) Yeah I don't even know tbh. I was just looking at quick moving hard hitting Calvary and checked out Gyrocoptors, Demi-Gryph Knights, Cold-One Knights and Fuliminators so I'm not super attached to them or anything. More like just picked them because I don't have any heroes fast enough to support them so I figured they ought to be a self-sustaining unit that can just hit flanks or clear screens or even just quickly snag objectives. I read Dwarves are complimented by very fast moving elements. 

4) Quite literally I just don't know enough about Kharadron Overlords to have remember them lol. I don't know what's good or bad or what anything does with them. 

Take a look: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Arkanaut-Ironclad-en.pdf

If you give it +1 to hit and wound (aka, hurricanum + hawk eyed) it does an average of 16-22 damage depending upon which main gun you give it.  All of this on a 18 wound model with a 3+ save that can re-locate to anywhere on the map it so desires if you are looking for mobility.  Additionally, if you so desired you could stuff it full of Grundstock Thunderers to add extra firepower (though then you need 6 non-KO units in your army) to get a gun platform that can be dealing ~40 damage and able to re-locate to anywhere it wants to on the board.  It would only cost... 870 points for it... :P

Is it actually better than fulminators... probably not.  Is it a fun "monster" unit - yup.  Is it a monster to paint?  Oh dear lord, I almost regret getting it - when even the instructions are recommending subassemblies for painting, you know you are in for a "fun" time.

More to the point though, the problem that Dwarfs have is that they are slow.  Yes, they move almost as fast as Ironjaws do, but Ironjaws have tricks that allow them to move in the hero phase, get massive charge bonuses, and potentially charge 3d6 if they so want.  However, the biggest thing to help the dwarfs in mobility is magic.  Soulscream bridge can move them 24" forwards, and doesn't even count as a move.  Cogs + Wildform + musician can give them +5" to their charge.  But, doing this, the Dwarfs naturally want to form a deathstar.  Yeah, when you put 1500 points of dwarfs and wizards in 1 spot, it is going to absolutely murder whatever comes near them.  However, AoS is an objective game, and some battleplans help the deathstar, while others punish it pretty badly.  So what you need is stuff that can hold the objectives while the deathstar deals with the opposing army.

While a unit of fast movers to back them up is one way to support as the dwarves (also, if you are looking at fast movers, I HIGHLY recommend looking at literally everything else before you look at the Drakespawn Knights), what you really need is something that helps them on the objective game.  That can be cavalry, as cav moves fast and can usually (except drakespawn knights) take lightly held objectives, or otherwise hold down the fort, don't limit yourself to looking at JUST cavalry.  Gryocopters are decent options, shadow warriors are great as they don't have to commit right away and can just hop down on objectives, Scourgerunner Chariots are pretty decent and have huge base sizes to act as roadblocks as well.  You can also look to the Kharadron Overlords, as all their boats get "fly high", which basically just lets them teleport anywhere on the battlefield following normal deep strike rules - but they can do that from on the table.  Or you can just look to bring some chaff that is ok standing back and is just there for screening and objective holding.  A great example here is Freeguild Guard - at 80 points, they can have a 10 man unit with a 4+ save, and for 500 points you can afford 6 of those units if you felt you needed that many.  Another one is to look at bringing a pack of Aetherwings from the stormcast - they are fast fliers that can just sit around and be annoyances - but at 50 points a pop, they are CHEAP.

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38 minutes ago, readercolin said:

Take a look: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos-warscroll-Arkanaut-Ironclad-en.pdf

If you give it +1 to hit and wound (aka, hurricanum + hawk eyed) it does an average of 16-22 damage depending upon which main gun you give it.  All of this on a 18 wound model with a 3+ save that can re-locate to anywhere on the map it so desires if you are looking for mobility.  Additionally, if you so desired you could stuff it full of Grundstock Thunderers to add extra firepower (though then you need 6 non-KO units in your army) to get a gun platform that can be dealing ~40 damage and able to re-locate to anywhere it wants to on the board.  It would only cost... 870 points for it... :P

Is it actually better than fulminators... probably not.  Is it a fun "monster" unit - yup.  Is it a monster to paint?  Oh dear lord, I almost regret getting it - when even the instructions are recommending subassemblies for painting, you know you are in for a "fun" time.

More to the point though, the problem that Dwarfs have is that they are slow.  Yes, they move almost as fast as Ironjaws do, but Ironjaws have tricks that allow them to move in the hero phase, get massive charge bonuses, and potentially charge 3d6 if they so want.  However, the biggest thing to help the dwarfs in mobility is magic.  Soulscream bridge can move them 24" forwards, and doesn't even count as a move.  Cogs + Wildform + musician can give them +5" to their charge.  But, doing this, the Dwarfs naturally want to form a deathstar.  Yeah, when you put 1500 points of dwarfs and wizards in 1 spot, it is going to absolutely murder whatever comes near them.  However, AoS is an objective game, and some battleplans help the deathstar, while others punish it pretty badly.  So what you need is stuff that can hold the objectives while the deathstar deals with the opposing army.

While a unit of fast movers to back them up is one way to support as the dwarves (also, if you are looking at fast movers, I HIGHLY recommend looking at literally everything else before you look at the Drakespawn Knights), what you really need is something that helps them on the objective game.  That can be cavalry, as cav moves fast and can usually (except drakespawn knights) take lightly held objectives, or otherwise hold down the fort, don't limit yourself to looking at JUST cavalry.  Gryocopters are decent options, shadow warriors are great as they don't have to commit right away and can just hop down on objectives, Scourgerunner Chariots are pretty decent and have huge base sizes to act as roadblocks as well.  You can also look to the Kharadron Overlords, as all their boats get "fly high", which basically just lets them teleport anywhere on the battlefield following normal deep strike rules - but they can do that from on the table.  Or you can just look to bring some chaff that is ok standing back and is just there for screening and objective holding.  A great example here is Freeguild Guard - at 80 points, they can have a 10 man unit with a 4+ save, and for 500 points you can afford 6 of those units if you felt you needed that many.  Another one is to look at bringing a pack of Aetherwings from the stormcast - they are fast fliers that can just sit around and be annoyances - but at 50 points a pop, they are CHEAP.

Yeah that boat is huge and looks pretty tough to paint and build LOL! I kind of struggle with big projects like that so I figured the biggest centerpiece would be the Hurricanum. 
 

I think Demigryph Knights look really strong (I did the maths and even with 0 support 6 can put a hurt on something), 4 Fulminators can crush things. I don’t really like the feel or Aesthetic of KO which is kind of why I forgot they existed. 
 

Things I had been looking at were sparse human supplements but converted to be dwarves, Stormcast Eternals, Fyreslayers (because I love the old Slayers modes), and that’s kind of all I had been perusing as far as Dispossessed supplements. 
 

I had very strong considered 6 Gyrocoptors in 2 teams of 3 for objective getting in addition to screen clearing. 
 

I think I’d been looking at Calvary because Scribor Miniatures has dwarves mounted on both rams and bears that I think is ultra cool and I might have been looking for any excuse to use them. 
 

As far as back line MSU objective grabbers I had considered just plain old Ironbreakers as they won’t totally fold should a unit be sent to contest, in addition to even doubling down on my “shield wall” front line protection and getting the Stormcast Eternal with the +1 to save rolls lantern and either Liberators or Sequitors (re-roll all saves) and plant them out front for a super beefy wall that would take serious commitment to chew through. I even considered possibly bringing the flying lantern guy with the Fulminators to at least let them re-roll 1’s to hit for a modicum of support, or even the Demigryph Knights. 
 

Id still like to pursue an Artillery Greywater Fastness list if for nothing but the sheer uniqueness of it, but I think an alternate Tempest Eye list would suit me well. I had considered Hallowheart but finding the room to bring more wizards just to make anything out of its traits was too difficult. 

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27 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

As far as back line MSU objective grabbers I had considered just plain old Ironbreakers as they won’t totally fold should a unit be sent to contest, in addition to even doubling down on my “shield wall” front line protection and getting the Stormcast Eternal with the +1 to save rolls lantern and either Liberators or Sequitors (re-roll all saves) and plant them out front for a super beefy wall that would take serious commitment to chew through. I even considered possibly bringing the flying lantern guy with the Fulminators to at least let them re-roll 1’s to hit for a modicum of support, or even the Demigryph Knights. 

It is hard to recommend ironbreakers unless you have some extra points floating about.  Yes, they do double the damage of longbeards, but longbeards can give you some small amounts of extra utility with their grumbling while being a bit cheaper.  Also, either that you take is going to be smashed if your opponet sends a remotely serious force at them.

As for the stormcast, do be aware that Sequitors aren't re-roll all saves, they are re-roll failed saves.  This means that they can only re-roll 1's, 2's, and 3's, even if your opponent hits you with rend that turns your save into a 5+ or 6+.  Yes, it is super annoying, and I am SOOO glad that they are switching from re-roll failed saves to re-roll all saves.  However, if you go liberators, they are generic battleline, so they would count as battleline in your cities army as well.  Though then you are taking liberators, which is its own downside...

As for fulminators, a 4 man squad is 20 wounds with a 3+ save, re-rolling 1's, and deal 3 damage on the charge.  You can get a 4 man squad for 480 points.  For 360 points, you can get 6 demigryphs with 24 wounds on a 3+ save, and if given lances get -2 rend 2 damage on the charge.  Demi's with halberds do less damage than fulminators on the charge, but more than if they don't, while demi's with lances do slightly less on the charge (but more vs 5+ or better saves), and more off the charge than the fulminators.  Beyond that, Demi's get a +1 to run/charge from their musician, and with the banner they match bravery, while fulminators get a ranged attack.  Overall, because of the points difference, I would probably go with Demi's over fulminators, unless you are running the living city (because fulminators can command point move after shooting there, which gets really fun when they deploy from the board edge, shoot something, and then get into position for an easy charge afterwards).  Additonally, if you really want the knight-Azyros (rr1's to hit dude), you can get him with the points saved for taking demi's over fulminators.

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8 hours ago, readercolin said:

I'm not entirely sold on the Fulminators

You need a Knight Heraldor for them to work =}

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Posted (edited)

Salut !  I have lots of old empire mortars and cannons, do you think I could use them as Helstorm Rocket Battery as proxyies or converting them in some way?

Edited by Alessio

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13 minutes ago, Alessio said:

Salut !  I have lots of old empire mortars and cannons, do you think I could use them as Helstorm Rocket Battery as proxyies or converting them in some way?

I don‘t see a reason anyone would mind those Proxies.

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21 minutes ago, Alessio said:

Salut !  I have lots of old empire mortars and cannons, do you think I could use them as Helstorm Rocket Battery as proxyies or converting them in some way?

Wouldn’t be bothered by it either. Absolutely fine. 

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So after play testing I found that I usually field one of these  4 lists each having their ups and downs. 
194047045_Citieslists.png.8ea82896bf2f953126b1b58668b7bdac.png

A few thoughts on the 2 greywater lists: 

- I think a smaller greywater battalion has it's place as it can threathen stuff even if you are forced to take a defensive turn 1, Had the 2 cannons and longrifles take out key pieces in my opponents force such as a slann/astrolith/skink priests in seraphon or battlesmith/other characters in fyrelayers.  I do not think investing in an ordinator / more  cannons is really worth it ...also stay away from the helblaster.

- if you play the flamespyre as you would a frostheart you are going to have a bad time. However, it still has the tankyness and is able to hold character objectives quite nicely, disrupt enemy formations and snipe with it's wake of flames... yes if I had the 20 points to spare in the list I would change it to a frost in a heartbeat.  I do like the flamespyre phoenix though and might try and play 2-3 riderless ones in a list. 

- Gotrek is such a great defensive tool for a gunline... Friend of mine made an image to describe a game he saw when I played a really fighty fyreslayer list which I'll paste in this post that describes his use far better than I could.  however I do miss the turn one greywater welcome of the other greywater list, also having a phoenix is super strong for character objectives and relocation orb. 

I also included 2 hammerhall lists that is a similar build as my greywater that also works real well. The celestant prime buffed by twinstones fighting twice is great, however you don't have the luxury of using CMD on your shooty stuff which lowers their shootyness(no drillmaster or hiutting 2+ with irondrakes) but it lets your melee element to preform better. 
the other list is basically the same list... but with 2 phoenixes... Those buggers are so tough to kill and just fly around being ******, they are starved for command points at times though. 

I will try them out as tempest eye next up with the Celestial Hurricanum hawkeyed general (think I might be stubborn fielding a freeguild general... but I like the playstyle), I also like the idea of running double Gunhauler for doing pretty much the same job as shadow warrior flying high and going for undefended objectives  (rather run them than pistoliers etc) 

Gotrek use in a Shooty list: 
95262798_235731797516965_7359981285571297280_n.png.84b5a00eee293d9c95921313214a46fa.png

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I have a Legion of Azgorh (old big hat Chaos Dwarves) army I have been wondering if I should try them out as a Cities of Sigmar army; I am not confident that FW will update Azgorh, nor are they that great anyways.  Greywater Fastness seems like it might be a viable choice for some of the units.  

I have:

2 Daemonsmiths (could be Runelords?)

a Castellan and a Standard Bearer (Warden Kings or Cogsmiths?)

4x10 Fireglaives (dudes with blunderbusses to be Ironbreakers seems legit)

an Iron Daemon (Steam Tank w Commander I think)

3 Magma Cannons (as good as Magma Cannons are, I could plop some extra armor walls and guns on there to be more Steam Tanks)

I also have a pair of Stormcast Concussors and a Lord Aquilor.  Could I make a viable Greywater army with this?  Seems like I'll never go first, but Azgorh is used to that.

I also have 3x3 old Bull Centaurs and the Dwarf Sorcerer on Lammasu, figured those could be tweeked with paint and rebasing to be DemiGryph Knights and a General on Griffon (though those are better for Hammerhal I'd say).

I could easily brighten up the paint colors, leaving the gold trim.  Black and white could be come blue and green for example.  Heck, then if I get some old fugly tree dudes I could do a Living City too!

Sure seems lame that they gave Cities such limited use of battalions.  The only one I see as decent are the Hammerhalian Lancers .  At least with that you can get a big chunk of an army down in one drop.  Steam Tanks shoulda had one, and then GW could have sold millions of them!  

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Well since I can't practice at the gaming store I decided to throw down and see what civilization could do against the hordes of anarchy, did Greywater Fastness vs Beasts of Chaos, mission: Total Commitment.

Greywater had:

Steam tank commander (general, trait was the rerolling hits of 1, relic was +1 to save)

3 steam tanks (battleline)

Freeguild General on Griffin (Hammer and shield, Ignax's Scales)

2 Runelords

2x20 Ironddrakes

Beasts (Dark Walkers) had:

3 Doombulls

3x3 Bullgors axe and shield

3x3 Bullgors great axes

2x10 Bestigors

Bray Shaman

allied Sayl the Faithless

Brass Despoilers

Emerald Lifeswarm

Wildfire Taurus

I wanted to get some practice with  my Beasts anyways too.

Beasts went first, outflanked 2 units of Bullgors, a Doombull, and 2x10 Bestigors.  Irondrakes are AWESOME when buffed by the Runelords and stand still.  They just really whoop the ****** out of Fireglaives by comparison.  Wiped out 10 Bestigors, a couple bullgors, and the other unit of Bestigors that charged a steam tank did squat to it, and then half got killed by their crushing bulk.   Then the combats ensued and eventually the beasts just got shot all to heck, though the steam tanks are so swingy, not sure I'd run more than 1 or two of them in the future.  Ended turn 3 after it was clear the beasts couldn't catch up on objective points.  The griffin general was so fast he captured a beasts objective and they couldn't break through to capture more of the Greywater ones.  Good battle though. 

So I will for sure keep my Irondrakes, and run a Runelord each unit, and if I use a Steam Tank Commander, he'll get a Runelord too.  Gonna keep trying the Greywaters as for shooty stuff just seems like the best way to go....though Living City is appealing as well for their outflanks and hit n run tactics.  Hard to say which tradeoffs are best.  Dwarves are so slow, the Living City stuff might help them out as a whole, however Cities has so many speed options, perhaps just toss in some faster options besides 2 of the steam tanks.  I always liked those Frost/FyrePhoenixes.

Guess if I can locate some wellpriced artillery I could get a battalion in there.  Extra relics rule!

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@Eorek

I love those lists, but you're mad (mad!) if you're running Gotrek in a CoS list with no Emerald Lifeswarm. Our lifeswarm is probably one of the best Gotrek enhancers available in the game.

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