AoS 2 -Greywater Fastness Discussion

[XReN]

I think I'll share my silly little list and first Meeting Engagement experience here, this is what I used:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
Greywater Fastness

Spearhead
Runelord (90)
10 x Irondrakes (150)
1 x Gyrobombers (80)

Main Body
Battlemage (90)
- Spell: Lore of Smog - Choking Fumes (Greywater Fastness Wizard)
- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)
- Mortal Realm: Chamon
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warblades
- 1x Grandblades
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers

Rearguard
Cogsmith (60)
- General
- Trait: Ghoul Mere Ranger
- Artefact: Runic Munitions
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)
Helblaster Volley Gun (120)
Helblaster Volley Gun (120)

Total: 990 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Wounds: 74

I played 4 games at a local tournament, GHB scoring, my army wasn't painted so with 2 major wins, 2 major losses and 2 completed agendas I finished 15th out of 18 players with 160 points total.

Irondrakes are beasts when you buff them to 2 attacks 2+ 3+ -2 1, they just shred through everything

Volleyguns are also great, 3 times this tournament I rolled max number of shots without breaking with them, only twice I had rolled mishap and both times reroll for Cogsmith fixed it, so with 27" range they can be good after all, both at long and at short range, though Ordinator is definetely reqired

Command trait helped me to make sure that I'll have my guns in position all the time and also made my Gyrobomber a sturdy and annoying little ******, because after operating on the front of the battle and getting damaged he has just been running to Cogsmith dropping bomb at someones head an still shot his puny cannon, can't wait to run a squadron of 3 of those.

Continueing with Gyro - it's a pretty good unit, if you take a unit of 3 and buff them with Runelord or LOrdinator they will actually deal decent damage at very long range as well as scare of squishy enemies with their 3d3 MWs 

 

Battlemage and Liberators did their thing kinda well, I'm going to abuse the hell out of that +1 to cast bonus for battles in home realm since most local tournaments run the same realm for every game and it's known before hand. Liberators are just as I remeber them from more than a year ago when I played Stormcast - low damage tarpits, that can sometimes deal some damage if dice are gracefull.

Edited October 22, 2019 by XReN

[XReN]

And about ME format - the list above is definetely not the way to go, but it is what I had available, you probably want Gyros, Outriders and more missle infantry in such games, so you can keep shooting non-stop and have speed to race for objectives, I would rather had 20 handgunners in one unit then 2x5 liberators - no need to screen from something that won't survive long enough to reach you. Also artillery is questionable, but totally not worth putting biggest chunk of your list in rearguard.

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, XReN said:

And about ME format - the list above is definetely not the way to go, but it is what I had available, you probably want Gyros, Outriders and more missle infantry in such games, so you can keep shooting non-stop and have speed to race for objectives, I would rather had 20 handgunners in one unit then 2x5 liberators - no need to screen from something that won't survive long enough to reach you. Also artillery is questionable, but totally not worth putting biggest chunk of your list in rearguard.

Handgunners could also just gun down anything that charges you, but it may also be good to just use Outriders instead of handgunners in your main body, they can grab positions quite quickly and have more shots than handgunners in turns they do not get charged. They have worse shots, but better save and don't lose effectiveness until the 6th wound, unlike handgunners.

[FPC]

Well...the FAQ gives a nice little bump to GF Gyrocopter.  The steam gun now benefits from the +3" range.  Against a nice, densely packed horde, that could be devastating.

[readercolin]

2 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

Handgunners could also just gun down anything that charges you, but it may also be good to just use Outriders instead of handgunners in your main body, they can grab positions quite quickly and have more shots than handgunners in turns they do not get charged. They have worse shots, but better save and don't lose effectiveness until the 6th wound, unlike handgunners.

What makes you say that they don't lose effectiveness until the 6th wound?  Every 2 wounds removes a model, reducing your effectiveness.

[Gwydion]

Well, the FAQ makes it plain that Gyrocopters benefit from the range increase. That's pretty sweet.

 

[Furythrow2]

Also the designer's commentary says that when those steamtanks become battle line, they're not also behemoths 

[ZLee Syn]

On 10/4/2019 at 10:36 AM, XReN said:

Lets crack Volleyguns with some more mathhammer, we're a city of engineers after all, here are some numbers:

Chance to jam 
2 Decks - 11.11% (with reroll) 33,33% (without reroll)
3 Decks - 18.53% (with reroll) 43,05% (without reroll)

Min and max number of shots without jamming:
1 Deck   - 1 to 6
2 Decks - 3 to 11
3 Decks - 6 to 15

Expected Average number of shots:
1 Deck   - 3.5 (this is the number I used in my calculations)
2 Decks - 7
3 Decks - 10

And here is damage calculations with some modifiers (it's a reroll of hit rolls in second column)

 

Now I made a rough comparisson in my head of 4 Volleyguns with Lord Ordinator and Cogsmith in a battalion (800 points) against 60 handgunners and General with his CA (700 points) in a following situation: turn one hangunners run and shoot via Command Trait and deal around half the damage that Volleyguns do with double shooting, second turn they get buffed and deal twice as much damage volleyguns can do without double shooting.

So almost equal if you commit to spam super hard, with handgunners being able to shoot at opponent's turn and Volleyguuns having superior range (and also Handgunners are not guaranteed to shoot in the first turn unless you spend a CP to run auto 6". Of course you can add a sorceress and Soulscream Bridge and deliver Handguner's full potential turn one.

Than I took a look at Hellstorms and they are actually worse than Volleyguns (which I expected), Volleyguns easily outperform Hellblasters even at 2+ save but at the cost of not being able to fire at all, so if you don't feel like taking a risk, take Hellstorm Rockets

Comparissons above are made assuming +1 to hit with rerolls of 1 and firing 3 decks

The conclusion is: Volleyguns are surprisingly better than expected and artillery all together can sort of stand it's ground compared to missle infantry (but only when range is detrimental), the most point-efficient usage of artillery is full 4 pieces battalion with LOrdinator.

 

Thanks for reading

You dont have to reroll all dice right? So If 2 are same and 3rd diferent you reroll just one dice. I am not sure If your calculations used that

[XReN]

1 minute ago, ZLee Syn said:

You dont have to reroll all dice right? So If 2 are same and 3rd diferent you reroll just one dice. I am not sure If your calculations used that

Oh, I missed that, I was calculating the re-roll of all the dice.

[Furythrow2]

Ok so I've been thinking a bit more about what some of our strengths might be and I've arrived at the following.

I think we can do a fair amount of work with command points.

We can start with an extra one from our artifact which means that you could start with 3 on the first turn for not much investment.

Going on from that we can generate an extra each turn with a roll from our command trait. If you combine that with the roll from city adjutant you have reasonable odds to get a second CP. Again I don't think this is too much of an investment as there are plenty of small heros in the book we can use.

Putting this together I think a reasonable greywater list could look to use the city command ability along with some of the warscroll ones (warden king, freeguild general and steam tank spring to mind) to form a solid block of fighting and shooting.

What do other people think?

[Double Misfire]

On 10/23/2019 at 3:06 PM, Furythrow2 said:

Ok so I've been thinking a bit more about what some of our strengths might be and I've arrived at the following.

I think we can do a fair amount of work with command points.

We can start with an extra one from our artifact which means that you could start with 3 on the first turn for not much investment.

Going on from that we can generate an extra each turn with a roll from our command trait. If you combine that with the roll from city adjutant you have reasonable odds to get a second CP. Again I don't think this is too much of an investment as there are plenty of small heros in the book we can use.

Putting this together I think a reasonable greywater list could look to use the city command ability along with some of the warscroll ones (warden king, freeguild general and steam tank spring to mind) to form a solid block of fighting and shooting.

What do other people think?

That's what I'm looking at at the moment, with a list focused around Gyrocopters and a 2+ save Steam Tank Commander able to be buffed by a Runelord, who along with Longbeards (that he can also buff) can dispel my endless spells, allowing me to immediately recast them for more healing/damage. Command points go on consistently getting my Warden King's grudge off, and making sure Gotrek gets into combat.  

[zilberfrid]

19 minutes ago, Double Misfire said:

and making sure Gotrek gets into combat.  

Gotrek getting into combat  will not be where you want him when the wildly OP Bonereaper artifacts hits the table.

[Double Misfire]

Just now, zilberfrid said:

Gotrek getting into combat  will not be where you want him when the wildly OP Bonereaper artifacts hits the table.

Bleh, it's only his 3+ ward, whatever weapon's got that slapped on it will still be damage 1. I got Lifeswarm. 😎🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝

(And relying on a Gotrekless meta that ensures nobody bothers to take that artefact or go Drakfoot😉)

(Also sniping the hero running it with a Cannon because that's how I roll I guess 🤘)

[zilberfrid]

6 minutes ago, Double Misfire said:

Bleh, it's only his 3+ ward, whatever weapon's got that slapped on it will still be damage 1. I got Lifeswarm. 😎🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝

(And relying on a Gotrekless meta that ensures nobody bothers to take that artefact or go Drakfoot😉)

(Also sniping the hero running it with a Cannon because that's how I roll I guess 🤘)

It's the save and the ward, but yeah, the weapon will still be one damage, in that you are correct.

[Furythrow2]

Ok so I've been having a think about other builds that we could do, specifically making use of our battalion.

So if we start with the fire base I would go for:

Cogsmith

Lord-Ordinator

4 Helstorm rocket batteries

Greywater artillery company

This comes in at 840pts and provides a real load of hurt from a distance.

For the battleline choices and screen I would go for something fairly cheap like:

2 10 freeguild handgunners

20 freeguild guard

This is a cheap chunk at 360pts and I think makes a reasonable screen, especially with the handgunners' stand and shoot.

At this point I think the list needs a solid hammer, something that can go in and clean up whatever survives the hail of rockets. We have 800pts left at this point so some options could be:

Sorceress and 30 Blackguard 510 points

2 6 Demigryph Kights 720 points

3 10 pistoliers 600points

30 Phoenix guard and an anointed on flame phoenix 720 points

or whatever else you fancy. 

The idea in my head is that you would use the artillery battalion to really lay on the hurt at range, forcing your opponent to come to you. As the weakened enemy comes forward your hammer of choice counter punches while your cheap screen keeps the artillery safe.

As always I'd love to hear peoples' thoughts.

[Alaric83]

Hello guys,

I think I've found the sweet spot for a very defensive Duardin Greywater list. It is not tournament-proof, as some lists or conditions can hard-counter it (like the Shadow realm with 6'' range on all attacks), but it could be very fun in casual play.

 

Warden King (110) - General / Steampiston mail
Runelord (90) - Adjutant
Cogsmith (60)
Lord-Ordinator (140)

30 Ironbreakers (330)
10 Hammerers (140) - Retinue
10 Hammerers (140)

5 Helstorms (650) - including 4 in battalion

GF battalion (120)

Celestial Hurricanum (220)

 

That's precisely 2000 points. We have a clear frontline with the Warden King and the Runelord, behind the central block of Ironbreakers and the Hammerers on the flanks.

Behind that is the artillery camp, with the 5 Helstorms and the Cogsmith / Ordinator / Hurricanum for the buffs.

On first turn, that's 27 attacks with, at worse, 3+ 3+ -2 D3, rerolling 1 to hit. On the following turn that's 15 attacks every turn.

Enough to force the enemy to rush onto your 50 angry armored Dwarves.
Runelord gives +1 to-hit to one of your artillery, for that sweet 2+ to hit reroll 1, and also put a 6+++ on the Ironbreakers holding the center.

You have enough board presence to push onto the objectives, especially with 2*10 Hammerers breaking the enemy's flanks. And the Warden gives battleshock immunity.

What do you guys think? Could this work in a semi-competitive environment?

[Double Misfire]

16 hours ago, Alaric83 said:

Hello guys,

I think I've found the sweet spot for a very defensive Duardin Greywater list. It is not tournament-proof, as some lists or conditions can hard-counter it (like the Shadow realm with 6'' range on all attacks), but it could be very fun in casual play.

 

Warden King (110) - General / Steampiston mail
Runelord (90) - Adjutant
Cogsmith (60)
Lord-Ordinator (140)

30 Ironbreakers (330)
10 Hammerers (140) - Retinue
10 Hammerers (140)

5 Helstorms (650) - including 4 in battalion

GF battalion (120)

Celestial Hurricanum (220)

😳

You might have fun using that list, but you are going to make no friends with it, and it will struggle to reach the objectives in a lot of scenarios.

Still, if you're going to go down that path, I'd recommend switching one unit of hammerers out for Longbeards for the wounds reroll, and the battalionless Hellblaster out for a Blacksmoke Battery mercenary Cannon - Blacksmoke Cannons don't get (or need) the +3" range, but still benefit from the Cogsmith, Lord-Ordinator, and Greywater Runelords' Rune of Unfaltering Aim.

[Balloon Dwarf]

Alright, so I'm fleshing out my list at the moment, and this is what I've come up with. In the games I've had so far, I've had real trouble with the hammerers and the ironbreakers getting chewed up in combat (they're against troggoths, but still.) 

So, the thought is that I can keep the artillery bubble. Cogsmith, Warden King, Lord-Ordinator, Battallion and hurricanum all together. This gives me the ability to run my artillery 9 inches and still shoot thanks to Ghoul Mere Ranger, with all the rerolls and pluses to hit. I can keep the hammerers and ironbreakers out in front to take on anything that threatens, plus the irondrakes can sit somewhere on a forward position and shoot stuff. The gyrocopters nip around claiming objectives and thinning out hordes while the guys on foot run to keep up. 

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Greywater Fastness
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Celestial Grudgicanum (280)
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage
Bergrim Doomraker (60)
Cogsmith
- Artefact: Mastro Vivetti's Maginificent Macroscope
- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)
Thulgrim Blackhammer (110)
Warden King
- General
- Trait: Ghoul Mere Ranger
- Artefact: Steam-piston Plate Mail
Nygel Stormberry (140)
Lord-Ordinator

Battleline
Blackhammer Maelstrom (140)
10 x Hammerers
Blackhammer Forgebrethren (130)
10 x Ironbreakers
Blackhammer Firestorm (150)
10 x Irondrakes
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)
Blackhammer Typhoon (140)
10 x Hammerers

Units
3 x Gyrocopters (180)

War Machines
Grudgeblaster (120)
Helblaster Volley Gun
Grudgeblaster (120)
Helblaster Volley Gun
Grudgestorm (130)
Helstorm Rocket Battery
Grudgestorm (130)
Helstorm Rocket Battery

Battalions
Greywater Artillery Company (120)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Emerald Lifeswarm (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 106

Any feedback appreciated!

[Grunaldi]

Do you need Life swarm in this list ?
Ur units are 10 dwarf strong so if they take serious dmg will likely explode.
Ur heroes are mostly support and u don't want to put them into combat , u should be able to snipe enemys snipers and with the exaction of hurricanum I don't see how will they take dmg and not die.
That gives you 50 pkt left for +1 CP or u can change Ironbreakes into longbeards and have 70 for extra gyro or something else.

[Balloon Dwarf]

The fact that it gives me D6 back instead of D3 seems pretty good. And as they're all 1 wound models that's some more back each time. I can see your point. I like the ironbreakers because if I come up against those low rend armies, the ironbreakers are basically not moving. I considered switching the hammerers into 1 unit of 20 but I thought that with WK command ability picking a unit to target means that actually taking two keepers of the gate allows me more attacks if I just go into that one unit, or I have more mobility. I considered the CP instead but with the Macroscope, the adjutant, the battalion etc I'm already getting quite a few. 

Thanks for the feedback though!

[Rune]

On 10/21/2019 at 2:48 PM, zilberfrid said:

Handgunners could also just gun down anything that charges you, but it may also be good to just use Outriders instead of handgunners in your main body, they can grab positions quite quickly and have more shots than handgunners in turns they do not get charged. They have worse shots, but better save and don't lose effectiveness until the 6th wound, unlike handgunners.

You can’t spread out your wounds like that

[zilberfrid]

13 minutes ago, Rune said:

You can’t spread out your wounds like that

Yeah, I was mistaken about that.

[Trav]

So is anyone running these guys? How have they been going?

[Myrdin]

Can anyone point me towards the The Blacksmoke Battery warscrolls by any chance ?

Neither the Cannon nor the Organ Gun are listed in GW store for me to look at them. Have a cannon laying around and was thinking of taking it via the mercenary company. Thanks

[Double Misfire]

9 hours ago, Trav said:

So is anyone running these guys? How have they been going?

Passably. I've not taken any artillery because my regular opponents tend to yell at me for it, but 11" range on Gyrocopters' steam guns vs hordes, 2+ save on a Steam Tank, and turning a general into a command point farm with seat on the council and an adjutant are all nice. Would like to try out the Artillery Company battalion eventually though!

9 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Can anyone point me towards the The Blacksmoke Battery warscrolls by any chance ?

Neither the Cannon nor the Organ Gun are listed in GW store for me to look at them. Have a cannon laying around and was thinking of taking it via the mercenary company. Thanks

They are still available on the AoS app, but yeah ditto, would be great if someone had the old PDFs saved by chance.

If you're thinking about running the Blacksmoke Battery, check out this really self indulgent guide I put together recently:

https://doublemisfire.blogspot.com/2019/11/guide-blacksmoke-battery-mercenary.html