AoS 2 -Greywater Fastness Discussion

[Brodylan]

With the new Cities of Sigmar book about to drop, I thought Greywater Fastness could use its own thread. I’ve also seen a few list ideas floating around the Cities of Sigmar discussion. I’m pretty keen to do a small gun-heavy army to start off, with plenty of handgunners and artillery. 

What are other people thinking of unit choices? 

[zilberfrid]

I am a bit conflicted, I do want to use the rockets and helblaster I have, but I have yet to make a good list with them. I like the thing that Sylvaneth will not work with Greywater, because of the pollution. I also like a good dwarven and human gunline, 

I have no Steam Tanks or Iron Drakes (or any other dwarves, really), which is really hurting the starting cost of this army.

For the moment, I think Greywater Fastness is not for me.

If what I had was no object, I would do the following:

1 batallion

2 Rocket batteries

2 Volley guns

1 Cogsmith

Steam tank general

3x steam tanks

Lord Ordinator

Cogsmith

2x10 Iron Drakes

2x10 Handgunners (could be thunderers if you want to keep with dwarves)

2x10  s&s guard (could be warriors if you want to keep with dwarves).

Luminarch of Hyish made to be a big artillery piece (but with wizard)

Emerald Lifeswarm

Suffocating Gravetide (mustard gas)

Burning head (napalm)

Set the handgunners up very close to the guard, so they can shoot when the guard is charged

Which is a nonsense army, but it would be fun to build and paint

[XReN]

A few interesting combinations I'm thinking:

2+ save STEAM TANK HELL YEAH! Can make for a good, self-sufficient distraction carnifex, he can sefl buff and self heal and doesn't cost a fortune for those 12 wounds, just try to eliminate any MW sources in proximity to it.

An obvious and available to all cities, but thematically fitting Greywater one - Handgunners buffed with General sent across the table via Soulscream Bridge, since it doesn't count as moving you can bring those 29 + leader shots hitting and wounding on 2+ anywhere on the table.

Duardin bombing castle - a wall of ironbreakers supported by Runelord and Warden King with a twist - 3 (or maybe more, depends on how crazy you are) Gyrobombers with a trait that allowes to shoot after running, so with move of 12" and Run that can be made an auto 6" you can surge forwards, fly like a couple of millimeters over enemy unit's front model's bases and then back behind the wall of dorfs, drop your bombs and then shoot (with rune of Unfaltering Aim!)

Utilising again the same trait and duardin aircrafts you can increase threat range of Gyrocopter's Steam Guns to melt opponent's hordes. For this you'd want something like knight Azyros as a general.

Lastly, good CP generation of this City would allow you to throw buffs left and right, Steam Tank battle group wants +1 to hit - sure thing. Irondrakes, same thing? Here you go lads. 6 murder chikens and General on Griphon slamming with meteoric force into enemy line - Rousing Battle Cry for both units easily.

[Gwendar]

For me, I think Greywater is likely going to be my "fun" army, using Bombers\Copters, 3 Tanks, 3-4 Rocket Batteries, MSU Handgunners and the like. I'm sure there are ways for it to be competitive and @XReN definitely listed some potentially good combos.. but I just don't see the benefit of Greywater comparative to the options you can get with other cities, like Hallowheart or Tempest Eye.

That idea for the Copters or Bombers to run, drop bombs and still shoot sounds pretty great; a pretty solid Blitzkrieg tactic if your opponent isn't apt on pre-measuring distances could easily see a support hero or horde get taken out right out of the gate (though we still don't know if the 3" extra range applies to the Steam gun 'within 8"' ability).

[XReN]

17 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

I just don't see the benefit of Greywater comparative to the options you can get with other cities, like Hallowheart or Tempest Eye.

Yeah, that is true Greywater is solid, but not broken, most of it's buffs target not-that-great units. Situational is a rather polite description for artillery battle trait and command ability as well. 

 

24 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

(though we still don't know if the 3" extra range applies to the Steam gun 'within 8"' ability).

Probably not, very dissapointing.

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

I've been looking more towards anvilgard for starting a cities army, but a greywater combo that stuck out to me was ordinator + hurricanum + command ability for +3 to hit on a war machine and +2 on your others. Paired with the range buff and suddenly celestar ballistas and hellblasters are super deadly, with hellblasters even able to hit heroes on a 2+ with that +3 mod balancing out look out sir. Witch aelves may be annoying but pumping the hag giving them rerolls and battleshock immunity makes them much easier to deal with. Snipe the necromancer out of the skeleton blob, pop heroes out of a hearthguard battalion, megabosses and warchanters getting filled with lead. No buff piece is safe from from a 3d6 hellblaster with some accompanying handgunners or ballista fire.

[XReN]

I also think about a versatile duo of battlemages that can act as anti-horde and debuff team, one from Aqshi with Ash Cloud and one from Hysh with Choking Fumes. Good amount of MWs against big units or combined -2 to hit will be good in any scenario.

[XReN]

1 minute ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

I've been looking more towards anvilgard for starting a cities army, but a greywater combo that stuck out to me was ordinator + hurricanum + command ability for +3 to hit on a war machine and +2 on your others. Paired with the range buff and suddenly celestar ballistas and hellblasters are super deadly, with hellblasters even able to hit heroes on a 2+ with that +3 mod balancing out look out sir. Witch aelves may be annoying but pumping the hag giving them rerolls and battleshock immunity makes them much easier to deal with. Snipe the necromancer out of the skeleton blob, pop heroes out of a hearthguard battalion, megabosses and warchanters getting filled with lead. No buff piece is safe from from a 3d6 hellblaster with some accompanying handgunners or ballista fire.

There is no CA that buffs artillery with the exception of Steam Tank, Celestar Ballistas can't benefit from extra range and to take 4 'listas and mister mustachio you have to have another 15 non SCE units in the list.

[Gwendar]

@XReN Yeah... everything says to take 5 pieces of artillery but... for a OPB ability? Come on... maybe if it was shoot twice each turn since the average output of 4-5 Helstorms really isn't that magnificent. To be honest, I think their best use to get the hit roll down to 2-3's and just have them wipe out heroes or elites; that 42" threat range means almost nothing is escaping unless it hides, which means it's likely not doing what it needs. This can be doubled down on with MSU handgunners shooting at support heroes as well.

Of course, sticking wholly with the Ironweld theme\war machines, you're looking at Copters for anti-horde as you've described and I think it would really benefit from some solid BL for screening or for some decent CC potential. At this point though, you're running out of points real fast.

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

1 minute ago, XReN said:

There is no CA that buffs artillery with the exception of Steam Tank, Celestar Ballistas can't benefit from extra range and to take 4 'listas and mister mustachio you have to have another 15 non SCE units in the list.

I'll have to double check the review i watched but wasn't there a greywater ability that gave a warmachine +1 to hit? And who said anything about taking 4 ballistas? Ordinator and 2 of them with some volleyguns will get the job done. And why wouldn't they get the range buff? They'd get the greywater keyword

[XReN]

Just now, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

I'll have to double check the review i watched but wasn't there a greywater ability that gave a warmachine +1 to hit? And who said anything about taking 4 ballistas? Ordinator and 2 of them with some volleyguns will get the job done. And why wouldn't they get the range buff? They'd get the greywater keyword

There is Rune that can be used once per turn giving +1 to hit, that as well as extra range specifies Ironweld Arsenal units

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

1 minute ago, XReN said:

There is Rune that can be used once per turn giving +1 to hit, that as well as extra range specifies Ironweld Arsenal units

Even without the extra 3", most people are probably taking a runelord anyways, and +2 to hit on most war machines and +3 on whichever you want to put in the work still seems pretty strong to me. Yeah more than half your army is dedicated to being a stationary firebase but you'll still have decent range and hitting power to pick apart your opponents army before it can do major damage to your screens and objective holders.

[XReN]

Well, I agree that there is some hero-sniping potential. I will definetely try most of possible arty builds because I have all the models needed except for really spammy variants like 4 hellstorms.

[Gwendar]

I guess that's the thing though isn't it; Greywater has unquestionable ability at hero killing, but if you want an all-comers list (again, speaking competitively rather than fun) you have to look at your points investments. If you just bring along 5 Helstorms + the battalion you're looking at 830 points already, but that 1st turn you'll be firing off 30 shots (assuming you target all 30 at 1 unit w/ rr 1's) and doing about 20 damage on average against a 4+ if mathhammer is right.. afterwards the damage tanks a bit for 830 points worth of tech in my opinion. Throw in a Hurricanum, Ordinator or Runelord (I wouldn't as it's only 1 War Machine for his prayer) and that cost goes up even more. While getting them to 2's or 3's to hit is nice, is it worth that investment?

You will likely want some cheap chaff and at least 1-2 solid CC units. Maybe a Griffon + Demigryphs, Greatswords, Phoenix Guard for a solid anvil + hammer built into one unit. Still, you're already eating almost half your points for a battery that may do around 10 damage a turn on average to a single unit (not including any buffs aside from rr1's and their +1 to hit targeting the same unit) so you're a bit limited in what you can fill the rest of the army with. Again, you're probably taking out 1-2 Heroes or crippling elite units with them per turn, but man are they susceptible to counter shooting or deepstrike. Playing passive doesn't typically work that well in my area so having all that sitting back and shooting with poor chaff units up the board won't do the trick in an objective based game. Steam Tank output isn't enough to do anything to those units either if you bring them along.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think we all expected more from Greywater when you consider some of the broken or nearly broken things other armies have. Again though, I have those armies for comp play while I want Greywater to 100% be my fun army. Local players are cool with me pulling out tons of artillery, handgunners and Tanks all while having Ghost Division on repeat. Fun for all.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Gwendar

[The Merchant Prince]

4 hours ago, XReN said:

Well, I agree that there is some hero-sniping potential. I will definetely try most of possible arty builds because I have all the models needed except for really spammy variants like 4 hellstorms.

The real hero-sniping potential is in MSU handgunners - the long rifles ignore 'look out sir' now.

[Brodylan]

I’m thinking of starting small with a 1000 point list of

cogsmith

lord ordinator 

20 handgunners

2x10 freeguild guard with shields

volley gun

Rocket battery

3 gyrocopters

Not sure that it will be too effective, but it should be fun and themey

[XReN]

11 hours ago, The Merchant Prince said:

The real hero-sniping potential is in MSU handgunners - the long rifles ignore 'look out sir' now.

Some chipping damage - probably, hero sniping - totally no

 

[The Merchant Prince]

20 minutes ago, XReN said:

Some chipping damage - probably, hero sniping - totally no

 

Sorry, I just mean for things like ~5 wound support heroes

[The Merchant Prince]

22 minutes ago, XReN said:

Some chipping damage - probably, hero sniping - totally no

 

I'm confused - what am I looking at? What does the hurricanum have to do with it?

[XReN]

2 minutes ago, The Merchant Prince said:

Sorry, I just mean for things like ~5 wound support heroes

This are calculations for 5 wound heroes

[XReN]

Just now, The Merchant Prince said:

I'm confused - what am I looking at? What does the hurricanum have to do with it?

Better hit rolls

[zilberfrid]

So standing with hurricanum and general is about three at 6+? Nice

Two shots for save 4+

Edited October 3, 2019 by zilberfrid

[The Merchant Prince]

9 minutes ago, XReN said:

This are calculations for 5 wound heroes

Why not include the +1 to hit and wound from the general - that's practically a must take with FG shooting?

[XReN]

2 minutes ago, The Merchant Prince said:

Why not include the +1 to hit and wound from the general - that's practically a must take with FG shooting?

Even if you buff them to 2+ 2+ with general it still requires 4 units to kill a hero with 6+ save, If you spend 2 CPs to buff 6 units you will be able to kill a 4+ save hero.

[zilberfrid]

50 minutes ago, XReN said:

Even if you buff them to 2+ 2+ with general it still requires 4 units to kill a hero with 6+ save, If you spend 2 CPs to buff 6 units you will be able to kill a 4+ save hero.

2/2/-1/2, so, (5/6)*(5/6)*2 (no save due to rend)= 1.4 damage per long rifle, that would mean 4, indeed.

Still, I think that twice a CP (need not be the same round) and the cost for msu's isn't a bad idea. Wizards, for instance, will be a lot less dangerous if they live shorter, and if a melee hero manages to charge you, well, they are in for a bad time when the leader and the other 9 guys get their shot.

Compared to a volley gun, the volley gun does not degrade when damaged but has less wounds (but higher save), the handgunners have a shot at 30" while the volley gun has all its shots at 24", the handgunners deal more damage at 16" (even when not standing still), even with the volley gun using three decks, the volley gun outdamages the handgunners at 12" (unless they are standing still), unless, of course, the handgunners are charged, or they are shooting a leader, then they outdamage the volley gun.

That seems balanced, but the volley gun is more expensive and slower, and it does not hold an objective as well. Bravery is the same due to flags, though the musician does next to nothing for gunners.

Edited October 3, 2019 by zilberfrid