AoS 2 -Greywater Fastness Discussion

[Kierdale]

The attached image of huge cannons usually accompanies any article about the Greywater Fastness.

(When) do you think we’ll get these as models?

 

Edited February 1, 2020 by Kierdale

[Double Misfire]

12 hours ago, Kierdale said:

The attached image of huge cannons usually accompanies any article about the Greywater Fastness.

(When) do you think we’ll get these as models?

 

Doubtful, they predate the Cities of Sigmar book by a couple of years, having first appeared in Season of War: Firestorm (the illustration from the same for Hallowheart features a Fyreslayer front and centre).

I can dream though. 

[Lightbox]

So having recently lost myself to Warhammer total war 2 and then seeing someone else mention the idea of using a cities of sigmar army to make vampire coast my long held dream of wraith fleet / vampirates will come to fruition! I have already made a unit of zombie handgunners and am currently making steamtanks from my pirate ship mortis engine I made ages ago (hello steam tank commander) and the other half of the idoneth ship that I had which -will- look suitably ridiculous which is half the fun. This also gives me a great way to use up all my bloody spare bits that I have lying around.

I'm looking to just do 1000 points to start as a fun little project that I may expand or may just leave at 1k and figured greywater fastness made sense for a pirate ship and GUNS army (and boy have I been wanting to revisit my favourite city of crazed cannon lovers for ages). I'm considering the following as a start point:

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Greywater Fastness
LEADERS
Steam Tank with Commander (250)
- General
Freeguild General (100)
UNITS
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)
5 x Freeguild Pistoliers (100)
1 x Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)
BEHEMOTHS
Steam Tank (200)
- Cities of Sigmar Battleline (Steam Tank with Commander General)
TOTAL: 980/1000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 0 WOUNDS: 66
LEADERS: 2/4 BATTLELINES: 3 (2+) BEHEMOTHS: 2/2 ARTILLERY: 1/2
ARTEFACTS: 0/1 ALLIES: 0/200

Now granted it's probably not a good list but looks like a fun one (I plan to my make my pistoliers out of spare black knights i'll never use and pistolier pistols spare from making my living city outriders) My only concern is whether I should have some freeguild guard or something to protect my gunners or whether I just say heck it and go all out (cannon)balls out.

I will post some pictures of my conversions when they're more finished too.

[Double Misfire]

'Sup Greycaps,

I've put together a new blog post delving deep into getting the most out of our (next to Hallowheart's) pretty so-so pile of allegiance abilities. Check it out in the link below if you fancy it, and please let me know if you think there's anything obvious I've left out.  

https://doublemisfire.blogspot.com/2020/02/the-lonely-realmsphere-guide-greywater.html

[Fulcanelli]

I like so much your idea @Lightbox, hope to see some pictures

Probably you won't cut the second Steam Tank, but if you do so, you'll free a lot of points for some screen units.

[Lightbox]

On ‎2‎/‎21‎/‎2020 at 1:04 PM, Fulcanelli said:

I like so much your idea @Lightbox, hope to see some pictures

Probably you won't cut the second Steam Tank, but if you do so, you'll free a lot of points for some screen units.

Well I'm debating using at least one of them as a hurricanum instead as it's gotten quite tall! Potentially can put a zombie lightning rod attached to its mast and a creepy necromancer for a Frankenstein lightning power feel to its storm abilities and + hit aura. Would end up actually being a nice boost for the handgunners and any non mobile artillery I field (cough helstorms cough). I'll try and post up some pictures of the conversion so far when I get home today and dig out my ship mortis engine I plan on rejigging into... something for this project and get pics of that too. I also have a box of zombies sat at home that I really should convert into more handgunners.

 

EDIT: Hurricanum would let me cut out the freeguild general in theory as handgunners wouldn't need his command ability hit bonus. Though this definitely is feeling like a project that could easily go to 1500 or 2k points.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Lightbox

[Lightbox]

 

Pictures as promised @Fulcanelli!

[Fulcanelli]

Oh, it looks very promising, I like both the ship and the handgunners!
Great conversion @Lightbox, thanks for sharing!

[Lightbox]

So progress is going slow but steady for greywaters most rotten of rogues with 20 handgunners now finished and other bits coming along. I'm still debating different avenues to try out especially since it seems converting my big ship monster into a hurricanum and not steam tank will be easier and cheaper with my bits I own... (my slightly smaller big ship mortis engine however may still become a steamtank because honestly what else will I use it as?). I'm wondering however If any of the start collecting's may be worth my while especially the greywater one, it would give me an engineer (cogsmith) gyrocopter and the 10 irondrakes may be my best shout with it and I can zombify them all up, then I have a warden king though dunno if he's worth converting into something else. I presume these are all useful units to add in? Or are the irondrakes / ironbreakers just generally worse than the freeguilders usually?

I am also going to see how many pistols I have left after my pistolier conversions so I can potentially make some sword and pistol shadow warrior zombies. Because bows are for losers who don't have dangerous gunpowder.

[Ser_namron]

Finally based some artillery.  Cannons and organ guns are no more, but I'm still gonna use these as proxies. 

http://imgur.com/a/sIT9Aio

[Brodylan]

Early progress on my own greywater fastness. Was anyone having much success with heavy artillery/copter builds? 

[Artobans Ghost]

50 minutes ago, Brodylan said:

Early progress on my own greywater fastness. Was anyone having much success with heavy artillery/copter builds? 

I have 1 steam tank to convert to look fanatical. And the canon doesn’t fit but if you have an order army, you can have a war alter/warrior priests included. I have 60 flagellants to sacrifice in the theme of fanatical. I had a Disciples of Sigmar army in wfb, converted to AoS early on and now have a fanatical grey water Fastness army with powder back up. Love it but thankfully I don’t kit out for competition otherwise I would be eaten alive lol  

 

[Artobans Ghost]

Grey Water Fastness list since I’m on it lol

 

Matorean%20Desciples%20of%20Sigmar.pdf

[Artobans Ghost]

The final unit done. My grey water fastness army. Plus more if I went with an order army. 
the Matorean Disciples of Sigmar. List is above. 
 

[Ravinsild]

I’m looking into a Greywater Fastness with pretty much all Dwarves (Dispossessed I guess) using the battalion. 
 

1) Does the Lord Ordinator buff the Helstrom Rocket Battery? 
 

2) Which is better or more efficient or the best strategy: 2 Celestar Ballistae and 2 Helstrom Rocket Battery or just 4 Helstrom Rocket Battery? 
 

i can’t seem to find average damage or any way to math hammer Celestar Ballistae. 
 

Im thinking between them and Irondrakes I’ll have a nasty shooting phase and hammerers honestly seem like they destroy in the melee phase so 2 out of 3 phases bringing the pain seems pretty good, especially because I can weaken unit from afar so my Hammerers can finish them off. 
 

Thoughts?

[Crashnarf]

Hello,  

1/ yes, the lord ordinator can buff the helstorm 😁

2/ I would prefer to take 4 helstorms rather then 2 plus 2 ballista. Don’t forget you can take the battalion with the Helstorms.

I play GF myself, and I run an ordinator, a gogsmith, 4 helstorms and 20 irondrakes. The rest of my list is : runelord, celestant-prime, 10 darkshards and 30 ironbreakers. Hold and shoot! 😅

Edited April 6, 2020 by Crashnarf

[readercolin]

8 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

i can’t seem to find average damage or any way to math hammer Celestar Ballistae. 
 

The easiest way is to use a calculator.  I like https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/

When you put in the stats for the ballista, add in a field for "exploding hits", and then say that it is exploding into d6 - 1 hits (it adds it as additional hits, so since you will always have at least 1, you just take the d6 and subtract the baseline one).  So in rapid fire, a ballista w/out ordinator will do 3.11 damage to a 5+ save, while with an ordinator it will do 4.67 on average.  Without rapid fire, a ballista does 1.56 damage without an ordinator, or 1.94 with one.

For reference, a hellstorm that focuses on a single target with a +1 to hit and an engineer around will do the exact same damage as a ballista without ordinator support at short range.  If you can give it a +2 to hit, then it gets to halfway between an un-buffed and a buffed ballista.  However, it is doing this damage all the way out to 39" in grewater fastness, while the ballista is only doing that out to 18.

[Ravinsild]

21 minutes ago, readercolin said:

The easiest way is to use a calculator.  I like https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/

When you put in the stats for the ballista, add in a field for "exploding hits", and then say that it is exploding into d6 - 1 hits (it adds it as additional hits, so since you will always have at least 1, you just take the d6 and subtract the baseline one).  So in rapid fire, a ballista w/out ordinator will do 3.11 damage to a 5+ save, while with an ordinator it will do 4.67 on average.  Without rapid fire, a ballista does 1.56 damage without an ordinator, or 1.94 with one.

For reference, a hellstorm that focuses on a single target with a +1 to hit and an engineer around will do the exact same damage as a ballista without ordinator support at short range.  If you can give it a +2 to hit, then it gets to halfway between an un-buffed and a buffed ballista.  However, it is doing this damage all the way out to 39" in grewater fastness, while the ballista is only doing that out to 18.

Wow so I can put the pressure on and the closer they come the deadlier it gets assuming they have no teleportation magic (which is why I need to keep people back to protect the guns). 
 

im wondering how to play objectives though haha. 

[Balloon Dwarf]

@Ravinsild my GF army runs a Warden King, a cogsmith, a lord ordinator and a converted hurricanum to have a dwarf on the top. Then I have 2 helstorm and 2 helblaster in the battalion, with run and shoot with the WK command trait. Then 10 irondrakes, 10 ironbreakers and 2x10 hammerers. Death star that runs and shoots around the board, remove things in the first turn (don't get greedy with the volley guns) then can sit on objectives too if you can get there. I win some, I lose some, but I enjoy playing it.

[Eorek]

Feels like the topic to post in. Been wanting to make a cities army that makes heavy use of the greywater theme and looking for c&c as I find discussing a list the best way of finding its flaw. 

So that's the list. 

Idea is that sorceress the general for the durability as if she died alot of the army tech stops working.  She basically deploys 30" away from enemy deployment to avoid turn 1 dispells and runelord deploys upfront so I can still dispell,  Turn 1-2 Bridge cast and a heavy shooting alpha from mid field. 
Drillmaster since you can easily get 2+ to hit on most the shooty stuff . 

Freeguild general babysits handgunner blocks who will act as screen for the rest of the army.  Runelord babysits the irondrakes giving em extra rend(real good tool to deal with petrifex and the like) 

2 shadow warrior units to give me some units that can act independent from the rest of the army for grabbing objectives/deal with the backline support.
Frostheart phoenix...Cuz Frostheart phoenix. Steam piston mail to make it even more tankier.

So eventual changes I thought about: Dropping steam piston mail and taking the macroscope for an additional cmd point as this list will be spending lots. 
Another change in the same theme would be dropping 10 bleakswords for an extra CMD and some spell or something. 

So what do ya'll think?


Army characters as tribute. 

[Aelfric]

24 minutes ago, Eorek said:

Feels like the topic to post in. Been wanting to make a cities army that makes heavy use of the greywater theme and looking for c&c as I find discussing a list the best way of finding its flaw. 

So that's the list. 

Idea is that sorceress the general for the durability as if she died alot of the army tech stops working.  She basically deploys 30" away from enemy deployment to avoid turn 1 dispells and runelord deploys upfront so I can still dispell,  Turn 1-2 Bridge cast and a heavy shooting alpha from mid field. 
Drillmaster since you can easily get 2+ to hit on most the shooty stuff . 

Freeguild general babysits handgunner blocks who will act as screen for the rest of the army.  Runelord babysits the irondrakes giving em extra rend(real good tool to deal with petrifex and the like) 

2 shadow warrior units to give me some units that can act independent from the rest of the army for grabbing objectives/deal with the backline support.
Frostheart phoenix...Cuz Frostheart phoenix. Steam piston mail to make it even more tankier.

So eventual changes I thought about: Dropping steam piston mail and taking the macroscope for an additional cmd point as this list will be spending lots. 
Another change in the same theme would be dropping 10 bleakswords for an extra CMD and some spell or something. 

So what do ya'll think?


Army characters as tribute. 

I love the large bearded "giant" of a man especially.  Is this an amalgam of GW models or a different company?

[Eorek]

4 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

I love the large bearded "giant" of a man especially.  Is this an amalgam of GW models or a different company?

Thank you, he is my counts as lord ordinator. He is infact 100% gw and sculpting putty ^^ there is a nurgle blightlord knight somewhere beneth it all. 

[readercolin]

4 hours ago, Eorek said:

Feels like the topic to post in. Been wanting to make a cities army that makes heavy use of the greywater theme and looking for c&c as I find discussing a list the best way of finding its flaw. 


So what do ya'll think?

The list looks fine.  However, I'm not really seeing what is attracting you to greywater fastness with this force.  Re-rolling 1's to hit with ranged attacks is something that you can do with command points.  You could get better shooting by taking this exact same force and going tempest eye with hawk eyed.  Choking Fumes can also be replaced by another cities spells without any real significant change.  Bringing your gunners in from the edge of the board with living city gives you more mobility.

So why are you interested in running greywater fastness?  If you were running around and trying to take advantage of Ghoul Mere Ranger, I could see greywater being useful.  If you were running around with gyrocopters with 11" steam guns, I could see running greywater.  If you were trying to push your ironweld arsenal war machines to new heights, I could see running greywater.  But the benefits you are getting from greywater are fairly minimal, and don't really stand up when compared to running another city.  So what is your reasoning?

[Eorek]

1 minute ago, readercolin said:

The list looks fine.  However, I'm not really seeing what is attracting you to greywater fastness with this force.  Re-rolling 1's to hit with ranged attacks is something that you can do with command points.  You could get better shooting by taking this exact same force and going tempest eye with hawk eyed.  Choking Fumes can also be replaced by another cities spells without any real significant change.  Bringing your gunners in from the edge of the board with living city gives you more mobility.

So why are you interested in running greywater fastness?  If you were running around and trying to take advantage of Ghoul Mere Ranger, I could see greywater being useful.  If you were running around with gyrocopters with 11" steam guns, I could see running greywater.  If you were trying to push your ironweld arsenal war machines to new heights, I could see running greywater.  But the benefits you are getting from greywater are fairly minimal, and don't really stand up when compared to running another city.  So what is your reasoning?

It is mainly the sustained fire power you get without using magic and drillmaster being a super reliable command trait if you can get your units down to hitting on +2. 

Say for example I ran tempest eye I would have to spend 3 cmd points a turn on rerolls alone to reach the same amount as drillmaster which is not sustainable. The tempest eye version of this list would prolly be a hurricanum with the trait that gave nearby shooting +1 to wound, however I do feel that build is too much 'all eggs in one basket' as if someone kills your hurricanum you are done for as far it comes to multiplying the effectiveness of your units. (Also temest eye bonus are not really that impactful as the movement will not be used on the infantry core or the shadow warriors and alot of the army only goes down to a 5+ save)

Thematically i went for a feel of having dakka themed infantry kept in order by their officers, sorta a ww1 but if magic had been a thing. Sure I would need a cannon or four to really sell the greywater theme. But they are just inexcusably bad compared to what you can get instead of them and the main purpose of this list is to be competative while still sticking to the shooty theme. And the greywater cmd ability lets you bring your irondrakes down to 2+ and your hangunners down to 2+ or even +1 if you are going for -to hit stuff.

Something romantic about a gunline of infantry hitting almost every shot...

The shadow warriors are kitbashed to look like some blackpowder themed ranger to sell the whole ghoulmere theme. And the annointed is there due to me having to have some tankier character for threeplaces of arcane power/duality etc

Picked choking fumes as the sorceress already has a built in debuff spell and it is more impactful that eroding blast the times I've tried them out... Also one of my sorceresses is smoking...^^

Link to my shadow warriors:

 

[Rune]

On 4/11/2020 at 1:25 PM, Eorek said:

Feels like the topic to post in. Been wanting to make a cities army that makes heavy use of the greywater theme and looking for c&c as I find discussing a list the best way of finding its flaw. 

So that's the list. 

Idea is that sorceress the general for the durability as if she died alot of the army tech stops working.  She basically deploys 30" away from enemy deployment to avoid turn 1 dispells and runelord deploys upfront so I can still dispell,  Turn 1-2 Bridge cast and a heavy shooting alpha from mid field. 
Drillmaster since you can easily get 2+ to hit on most the shooty stuff . 

Freeguild general babysits handgunner blocks who will act as screen for the rest of the army.  Runelord babysits the irondrakes giving em extra rend(real good tool to deal with petrifex and the like) 

2 shadow warrior units to give me some units that can act independent from the rest of the army for grabbing objectives/deal with the backline support.
Frostheart phoenix...Cuz Frostheart phoenix. Steam piston mail to make it even more tankier.

So eventual changes I thought about: Dropping steam piston mail and taking the macroscope for an additional cmd point as this list will be spending lots. 
Another change in the same theme would be dropping 10 bleakswords for an extra CMD and some spell or something. 

So what do ya'll think?


Army characters as tribute. 

There is some really interesting things in your list. At another point in time i'll spend some time actually trying to build around your list more, but I don't have the time right now.

Solely advice on your build and not in regards to whatever fluff you want to run. The list is solid, you can win games with it. If you are asking if there is a better list out there, then I would definitively say yes.

I have written my pointers below based on your other comments.. the hardest hitters are the two last.

Pointers:

• Double turn risks
  You'll want to play it out by playing passive the first two turns and chip away at the enemy, likely be behind in points, and by turn 3 start trying to catch up. If you instead go for a turn one alpha strike in the middle, you are running a huge risk against a lot of armies as they can get a double turn and absolutely run you over. If that's how you like to play, then that's fine, but you will leave it up to the dice. You also only have limited range on all your shooters, so if they screen you off well, you won't get enough value out of the risk.
   
• Map control
  When you begin catching up you have nothing to run onto points with. Shadow Warriors is your only bet, but when they are on the board, thats where they will be. They can't teleport again like Tree-Revenants, which is why you see a lot of people using those. Consider if you really need that extra shooting, or the extra utilization could be better with Tree-Revenants. You also do not have something like (there is nothing like it tbh) Phoenix Guards to run up towards the enemy and take inches.
   
• Lack of command points
  You say you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket in T.E because the Hurricanum will provide a +1 hit & +1 wound buff. But that is exactly what you are doing with your Freeguild General, just at the cost of a command point, and an added cost of an even heavier mobility penalty on your units. Your damage drops 20% if you don't spend that command point (or if the 5wound hero dies). That's a lot. It drops 25% if you don't spend one on giving your Irondrakes +1 to hit with the other command point. 
   
• Battleshock Immunity
  You do not have any battleshock immunity at all, and no command points. You will loose a lot of units from battleshock against a lot of armies. Tempest Eye and Hallowheart both has that. Another option is using Phoenix Guards since they'll be battleshock immune around your phoenix.

 

Take this T.E list below for instance:
Anointed of Asuryan on Frostheart Phoenix (320)
Runelord (90)
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
Battlemage (90)

30 x Irondrakes (450)
10 x Longbeards (110)
10 x Irondrakes (150)

30 x Phoenix Guard (420)

Soulscream Bridge (80)


You get more damage (with only 1 command point compared to your list even if you spend 2). You get battleshock immunity on all units. You get 30 Phoenix Guards vs Bleakswords and Shadow Warriors. You do lose 3" range though.

You also get something to fall back on if your bridge fails, as the 3" move can get you somewhere.

(Possibly sway out 10 Irondrakes for Freeguild Guards and Tree-Revenants)

 

Please share some battlereports! Enjoy your list!

Edited April 13, 2020 by Rune