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AoS 2 -Greywater Fastness Discussion


Brodylan

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18 hours ago, Trav said:

So is anyone running these guys? How have they been going?

I took my Greywater army to the campaign weekend at Warhammer World and went 2 - 3. A lot of that was me not knowing the best way to actually run my army for the first few games though. 

I run a Duardin force, with a lord ordinator and a celestial hurricanum (with a kit bashed duardin on it). Warden King with the run and shoot trait, lots of command points for volley fire and battle shock, then the emerald Lifeswarm to return any hammerers that drop. Lots of pluses to hit, with some rerolls and the detachment. It's great if there's something you want shot a lot and dont want to deal with in the first turn. I also run a 3 gyrocopter with steam gun and those things can decimate horde. Took them against a unit of 60 stabbas and the gyrocopters alone got them down to 23. 

I love them. I reckon I'm on about 50% win rate, but often am playing the same people at my local shop so that probably plays into it. 

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20191116_130341.jpg

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2 hours ago, Balloon Dwarf said:

I took my Greywater army to the campaign weekend at Warhammer World and went 2 - 3. A lot of that was me not knowing the best way to actually run my army for the first few games though. 

I run a Duardin force, with a lord ordinator and a celestial hurricanum (with a kit bashed duardin on it). Warden King with the run and shoot trait, lots of command points for volley fire and battle shock, then the emerald Lifeswarm to return any hammerers that drop. Lots of pluses to hit, with some rerolls and the detachment. It's great if there's something you want shot a lot and dont want to deal with in the first turn. I also run a 3 gyrocopter with steam gun and those things can decimate horde. Took them against a unit of 60 stabbas and the gyrocopters alone got them down to 23. 

I love them. I reckon I'm on about 50% win rate, but often am playing the same people at my local shop so that probably plays into it. 

20191117_135723.jpg

20191116_130341.jpg

Love your army! ❤️

Bizarrely the Hurricanum looks a lot better without horses.

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9 hours ago, Fulcanelli said:

I see what you mean, same here; I'm planning to put two cingulums from 40k AdMech and cut the horses.
May I ask, @Balloon Dwarf, the size of your Hurricanum base? 

It's the standard base, so a 120 x 92 oval. I left the horses originally because I ran out of time, then every time I went to attach them they just looked stupid. 

Thank you for the compliments! It's my first fully painted army, so this is a real push to paint the next one. 

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So I`ll ask here, since this and Tempest Eye are the two cities where it would be most relevant:

Helstorm Rocket battery and Helblaster.

I know that none of them are the "good choices" but admittedly they are the "fun" choices. And they work well with either of these two cities.

Helblaster is more suited for Tempest eyes, due to its native To Hit being higher, and to make it solid all you need is a Hurricanum hero with Hawkeyed and you are set.

The Hellstorm on the other hand seems less appealing for Tempest eye and better suited for Greywater due to the Runelord prayer combined with Hurricanum makes it 3+ to Hit, and even 2+ if you fire at the same target. No bonus To Wound though.

Now the biggest benefit to these can be found with Tempest Eyes HawkEyed trait that gives the +1 to Wound. However, I have a hunch that being 2+ 3+ -2 with reroll 1s to Hit (Greywater) is better than  3+ 2+ -2 (Tempest).

 

What do you think about this ? Is Greywater better for Helstorm. And how do you find the two artillery pieces in general.

I tried Helblaster with Cogsmith against Seraphon, and wasnt really that impressed. It was fun, but them negating -1 Rend it was rather underwhelming. Especially me rolling low number of shots and a double every single turn. Still I think it might be just fine within Tempest, Though having 2+  and re-roll 1 to Hit with Greywater seems pretty decent as well.

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1 hour ago, Myrdin said:

So I`ll ask here, since this and Tempest Eye are the two cities where it would be most relevant:

Helstorm Rocket battery and Helblaster.

I know that none of them are the "good choices" but admittedly they are the "fun" choices. And they work well with either of these two cities.

Helblaster is more suited for Tempest eyes, due to its native To Hit being higher, and to make it solid all you need is a Hurricanum hero with Hawkeyed and you are set.

The Hellstorm on the other hand seems less appealing for Tempest eye and better suited for Greywater due to the Runelord prayer combined with Hurricanum makes it 3+ to Hit, and even 2+ if you fire at the same target. No bonus To Wound though.

Now the biggest benefit to these can be found with Tempest Eyes HawkEyed trait that gives the +1 to Wound. However, I have a hunch that being 2+ 3+ -2 with reroll 1s to Hit (Greywater) is better than  3+ 2+ -2 (Tempest).

 

What do you think about this ? Is Greywater better for Helstorm. And how do you find the two artillery pieces in general.

I tried Helblaster with Cogsmith against Seraphon, and wasnt really that impressed. It was fun, but them negating -1 Rend it was rather underwhelming. Especially me rolling low number of shots and a double every single turn. Still I think it might be just fine within Tempest, Though having 2+  and re-roll 1 to Hit with Greywater seems pretty decent as well.

you can get 2+/2+ in tempest eye, if you add in a Lord Ordinator, the reroll of 1s are not locked to Greywater either.

i would say that the only benefits that Greywater have over Tempest Eye for Hellstorms are the battalion and the increased range.

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On 1/10/2020 at 10:29 PM, Balloon Dwarf said:

It's the standard base, so a 120 x 92 oval. I left the horses originally because I ran out of time, then every time I went to attach them they just looked stupid. 

Thank you for the compliments! It's my first fully painted army, so this is a real push to paint the next one. 

I went with Taurox tracks for mine which work pretty well!

82200216_10156846783307286_2492470161542479872_o.jpg

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4 hours ago, j0lt said:

Love the models in the fastwater box, soft spot for duardin however I'd like to get some as a side project, is it viable to make an army just using fastwater models? Or would I get absolutely mullered against every matchup?

Fastwater box gives you Ironbreakers, which can also be built as irondrakes.  Then it gives you a warden king, a cogsmith, and a gyrocopter.

You can build a decent list around Irondrakes, with a screen of ironbreakers, and then some gryocopters to support.  However, the cogsmith is a waste in this box without artillery, which would be coming seperately.  Additionally, to maximize the power of irondrakes and ironbreakers, you really want a runesmith or two, and a unit of 10 longbeards.  A reasonable 1000 point army would be the following:

Warden King
Runelord
Runelord
10x Longbeards
10x Ironbreakers
20x Irondrakes
2x Gyrocopters/Gyrobombers

The basic idea here would be to use the ironbreakers as your front "screen", have the irondrakes behind and buffed to -3 rend by the runelords, and then with the longbeards grumbling and a command point you can re-roll 1's to hit and to wound.  If you go Greywater Fastness, the gyrocopters get +3" range on their steam cannons (or any other gun).  But a better plan may be to go Tempest Eye so you can give one of your leaders Hawk Eyed, so your drakes can be 3+(rr1)/2+(rr1)/-3/1 as their damage profile.

That being said, if you want to just buy 2-3 boxes of Greywater Fastness... you are probably going to be disappointed.  You are never really going to need more than 1 warden king or more than 1 cogsmith, which means those models are wasted.  However, you can definitely run with a lot of irondrakes/ironbreakers, and fleets of gryocopters/gryobombers can be fun to play with too.  If you decide you want to expand beyond 1000 points, getting a wizard or two and Soulscream Bridge is basically mandatory as well, though you can fill out the rest of your list with more ironbreakers/irondrakes/gryo's and still play a reasonable game.

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2 hours ago, readercolin said:

irondrakes behind and buffed to -3 rend by the runelords

Thats is imposible.

 

Runelords cant use more than one rune on each unit.

 

Btw i wouldnt build any ironbreaker,they are one of the worst unit of the game rigth now, have zero damage and 10 wounds with save 3 for 130 points is way overcosted.

 

They would need have 2 wounds or a save after save of 4 to have a use,even longbeards that are a bad unit too have the same save 3 and 10 wounds for less points.

 

I tell you this as someone that built 30 ironbreakers and only 20 irondrakes and i regret it so hard(40 irondrakes and only 10 irondrakes for collection would had been the best)

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13 hours ago, Doko said:

Thats is imposible.

 

Runelords cant use more than one rune on each unit.

 

Btw i wouldnt build any ironbreaker,they are one of the worst unit of the game rigth now, have zero damage and 10 wounds with save 3 for 130 points is way overcosted.

 

They would need have 2 wounds or a save after save of 4 to have a use,even longbeards that are a bad unit too have the same save 3 and 10 wounds for less points.

 

I tell you this as someone that built 30 ironbreakers and only 20 irondrakes and i regret it so hard(40 irondrakes and only 10 irondrakes for collection would had been the best)

There is nothing in the warscroll or the FAQ that states that runelord's Forgefire buff doesn't stack.  This means that as long as you have 2 runelords, they can both use forgefire on the same unit and buff the rend to -3 provided that both prayers go off.  Heck, you could buff it to -5 rend if you have 4 runelords.  If you feel that this is otherwise, please point out exactly where in the rules it states that you cannot do this.

Note here that usually when the ability doesn't stack the warscroll states "within X inches of a unit with this ability", or "a unit cannot benefit from this ability more than once a turn".  That isn't found anywhere on the runelord warscroll.

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Great aliance general order faq:

 

Page 177 – Runelord, Rune Lore
Add the following to the end of the first paragraph:
‘A unit that is affected by a Rune Lore power cannot be 
picked again in the same phase.’

 

Plz read the faq better next time

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17 hours ago, readercolin said:

Fastwater box gives you Ironbreakers, which can also be built as irondrakes.  Then it gives you a warden king, a cogsmith, and a gyrocopter.

You can build a decent list around Irondrakes, with a screen of ironbreakers, and then some gryocopters to support.  However, the cogsmith is a waste in this box without artillery, which would be coming seperately.  Additionally, to maximize the power of irondrakes and ironbreakers, you really want a runesmith or two, and a unit of 10 longbeards.  A reasonable 1000 point army would be the following:

Warden King
Runelord
Runelord
10x Longbeards
10x Ironbreakers
20x Irondrakes
2x Gyrocopters/Gyrobombers

The basic idea here would be to use the ironbreakers as your front "screen", have the irondrakes behind and buffed to -3 rend by the runelords, and then with the longbeards grumbling and a command point you can re-roll 1's to hit and to wound.  If you go Greywater Fastness, the gyrocopters get +3" range on their steam cannons (or any other gun).  But a better plan may be to go Tempest Eye so you can give one of your leaders Hawk Eyed, so your drakes can be 3+(rr1)/2+(rr1)/-3/1 as their damage profile.

That being said, if you want to just buy 2-3 boxes of Greywater Fastness... you are probably going to be disappointed.  You are never really going to need more than 1 warden king or more than 1 cogsmith, which means those models are wasted.  However, you can definitely run with a lot of irondrakes/ironbreakers, and fleets of gryocopters/gryobombers can be fun to play with too.  If you decide you want to expand beyond 1000 points, getting a wizard or two and Soulscream Bridge is basically mandatory as well, though you can fill out the rest of your list with more ironbreakers/irondrakes/gryo's and still play a reasonable game.

Cheers Colin, this is on the side project list or added as some allies to a thematic army - not too disappointed in this, not everybook is the same but I'll take it for the love of the Dawi!

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2 hours ago, Doko said:

Great aliance general order faq:

 

Page 177 – Runelord, Rune Lore
Add the following to the end of the first paragraph:
‘A unit that is affected by a Rune Lore power cannot be 
picked again in the same phase.’

 

Plz read the faq better next time

This is in the Grand Alliance Order FAQ - the unit has received an new warscroll since then and is now in a completely new book.  In every other case where a new book comes out and the models are updated, old FAQ's for the previous book do not apply to that new unit.  It is rather disingenuous to state that for this particular model an FAQ on its old warscroll in its old book still applies to it.

Yes, I am aware that not much changed about the warscroll (mostly, cities of sigmar was added to the tags).  But again, if they felt that this restriction should still apply to this unit, then they would have modified the warscroll to state that when it was printed in the new book, or they would have issued a new FAQ for the new book stating this.  This also stands with their policy of "Most recent printing", and the new book and FAQ's for the new book are more recent than the grand alliance order FAQ.

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20 minutes ago, Doko said:

You can cheat in your store if you want but i can tell you that any tournament gonna let you use two runelord buffs in same unit.

 

The faq says tha you cant do it period.

This same FAQ also said:

Page 176 – Warden King, Ancestral Grudge Add: ‘The same unit cannot be picked as the target of this command ability more than once in the same phase.’

Note the new warden king warscroll.  "You can use this command ability at the start of the combat phase. If you do so, pick 1 enemy unit within 18" of a friendly Hero with this command ability. Until the end of that phase, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of attacks made with melee weapons used by friendly Dispossessed units that target that unit. A unit cannot benefit from this command ability more than once per phase."

Here, we can clearly see that the Warden King's warscroll was clearly updated to include the effects of the FAQ. 

Freeguild general, the Grand Alliance Order FAQ says: Page 138 – Freeguild General, Hold The Line! Add: ‘The same unit cannot be picked to benefit from this command ability more than once in the same phase.’

The new freeguild general warscroll: "You can use this command ability in your hero phase. If you do so, pick up to 3 friendly Freeguild units wholly within 18" of a friendly Freeguild Hero with this command ability. Until the start of your next hero phase, add 1 to hit and wound rolls for attacks made by those friendly units if they have not made a normal move or a charge move in the same turn. A unit cannot benefit from this command ability more than once per phase."

Seems kind of interesting how the new warscrolls already take this into account.  Its almost like they were designed that way.

Lastly, since you are so focused on the FAQ's, lets take a look at this one from the Core Rulebook's Designer's Commentary:

Q: If I have two different warscrolls for the same unit, can I choose which to use, or must I use the most recently published version? Do I have to use any errata that applies to the warscroll?

A: You must use the most recently published warscroll and errata that you or your opponent have available. Warscrolls with a date of publication are always considered to have been published more recently than a warscroll that doesn’t have one. If you have two warscrolls for a unit and neither has a date of publication, you can choose which warscroll to use.

Note here that Cities of Sigmar is the most recently published warscroll and errata.  Now, if an errata came out about the runelord with respect to the cities of sigmar book, then of course that should be followed.  But a new warscroll was printed, and it is more recent than both the old warscroll, and the old errata.  Therefore, you use the new warscroll and errata (the CoS book and its accompanying FAQ) to determine what your units can or can't do.

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I an a dispossesed player and i know that i never gonna do it and any tournament gonna let you do it.

 

It is 100% obvious that the faq is legal,but you are arguing as the typical "that player" looking for legal loops.

 

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The Grand Alliance: Order FAQ is only relevant to the warscrolls printed in GA: Order, as indicated by the page numbers given for the Warscrolls in that FAQ; which as @readercolin has gone to great lengths to explain, are superseded by the more recent versions of those warscrolls printed in Battletome: Cities of Sigmar (which is real shame, as I'd love Irondrakes to shoot twice on having 10+ models instead of being immobile 😞).

Can we please move the thread conversation back towards cool Ironweld Arsenal conversions? 🙂 Here's a Gyrocopter I'm working on:

IMG_20200129_2219249.jpg.efd04d7a199745c46fd246d519d7d3fe.jpg

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10 hours ago, Doko said:

It is 100% obvious that the faq is legal,but you are arguing as the typical "that player" looking for legal loops.

Yeah, It's glaringly obvious that errata (published in 12.18)  for page 177 of GA: Order book (published in 4.16) is a clarification for page 104 of Cities of Sigmar book (published in 10.19). Obviously.

Doet that mean that I should add to the Wild Rider warscroll the part where they can get shields for +1 save/-2 move? Because I would very much like that option and GA: Order errata clearly states I can! And Irondrakes now fire twice in large units, not if static, also according to the same errata. Great with, say, Tempest's Eye move bonus!

Alright, enough sarcasm.

It's not a 'legal loop'. Current rules have taken into account 'does not stack' on abilities of all the other characters. They didn't for runelord. CoS errata didn't change that. There's no reason to think runelord prayers don't stack, apart from 'they used to work differently'. Yeah, well, they've been changed, apparently. We can't pretend to know what authors intentin nas been, but rules don't in any way prohibit stacking in this case (while they do in many others in the same book)

@Double Misfire, that gyrocopter remains awesome. Even better to see it painted. Almost makes me regret not going for a more mechanised theme ; )

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1 hour ago, dekay said:

@Double Misfire, that gyrocopter remains awesome. Even better to see it painted. Almost makes me regret not going for a more mechanised theme ; )

Thanks dude, that means a lot coming from someone with an army as enviable as yours, though it's a long way from finished, with an awful lot of freehand, highlights and weathering to add before the Throne of Skulls next week. It's never too late to start adding Storm Duardin gunships... ;):D 

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5 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

The Grand Alliance: Order FAQ is only relevant to the warscrolls printed in GA: Order, as indicated by the page numbers given for the Warscrolls in that FAQ; which as @readercolin has gone to great lengths to explain, are superseded by the more recent versions of those warscrolls printed in Battletome: Cities of Sigmar (which is real shame, as I'd love Irondrakes to shoot twice on having 10+ models instead of being immobile 😞).

Can we please move the thread conversation back towards cool Ironweld Arsenal conversions? 🙂 Here's a Gyrocopter I'm working on:

IMG_20200129_2219249.jpg.efd04d7a199745c46fd246d519d7d3fe.jpg

Just one question - how do you get that to stand upright?

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