AoS 2 -Greywater Fastness Discussion

[The Merchant Prince]

53 minutes ago, XReN said:

Even if you buff them to 2+ 2+ with general it still requires 4 units to kill a hero with 6+ save, If you spend 2 CPs to buff 6 units you will be able to kill a 4+ save hero.

Using the mathhammer app 3 long rifles (buffed w/ hurricanum or didn't move + general) (i.e. 3 attacks hitting on 2+, wounding on 2+, rend -1 and dmg 2) will put out an avg damage of 2.778 / turn against a 4+ save, 3.472 damage / turn vs 5+ save, and 4.167 damage / turn vs 6+ save - i.e. will likely kill a 5 wound hero in 2 turns without an issue. That's without considering the rest of the guns,  the stand and shoot etc. I think that's pretty good.

[XReN]

2 minutes ago, The Merchant Prince said:

Using the mathhammer app 3 long rifles (buffed w/ hurricanum or didn't move + general) (i.e. 3 attacks hitting on 2+, wounding on 2+, rend -1 and dmg 2) will put out an avg damage of 2.778 / turn against a 4+ save, 3.472 damage / turn vs 5+ save, and 4.167 damage / turn vs 6+ save - i.e. will likely kill a 5 wound hero in 2 turns without an issue. That's without considering the rest of the guns,  the stand and shoot etc. I think that's pretty good.

For me it's not good enough, you really don't want a Hag sticking around longer than 1 turn, you won't kill an Arch-Regent ever unless you dedicate other resourses to it etc. 

I did some quick math, you can kill a 4+ save 5 wound character with 2 hellstorm battaries, both buffed with ordinator and one with Rune, expending 6 shots on 4+ and 3 shots on 3+ or vice-versa. With all 12 shots you can kill a 3+ save character as well.  (now I realise that I forgot rerolls of 1 to hit, but whatever)

So yeah, dump a bunch of explosives on a character, than decide if you can finish him with long rifles or need to expend some more shells. Greywater way.

[zilberfrid]

As hinted on before, do people find a home for the Helblaster Volleygun? I think it's a bit lackluster, but I may be missing something.

[XReN]

Lets crack Volleyguns with some more mathhammer, we're a city of engineers after all, here are some numbers:

Chance to jam 
2 Decks - 11.11% (with reroll) 33,33% (without reroll)
3 Decks - 18.53% (with reroll) 43,05% (without reroll)

Min and max number of shots without jamming:
1 Deck   - 1 to 6
2 Decks - 3 to 11
3 Decks - 6 to 15

Expected Average number of shots:
1 Deck   - 3.5 (this is the number I used in my calculations)
2 Decks - 7
3 Decks - 10

And here is damage calculations with some modifiers (it's a reroll of hit rolls in second column)

 

Now I made a rough comparisson in my head of 4 Volleyguns with Lord Ordinator and Cogsmith in a battalion (800 points) against 60 handgunners and General with his CA (700 points) in a following situation: turn one hangunners run and shoot via Command Trait and deal around half the damage that Volleyguns do with double shooting, second turn they get buffed and deal twice as much damage volleyguns can do without double shooting.

So almost equal if you commit to spam super hard, with handgunners being able to shoot at opponent's turn and Volleyguuns having superior range (and also Handgunners are not guaranteed to shoot in the first turn unless you spend a CP to run auto 6". Of course you can add a sorceress and Soulscream Bridge and deliver Handguner's full potential turn one.

Than I took a look at Hellstorms and they are actually worse than Volleyguns (which I expected), Volleyguns easily outperform Hellblasters even at 2+ save but at the cost of not being able to fire at all, so if you don't feel like taking a risk, take Hellstorm Rockets

Comparissons above are made assuming +1 to hit with rerolls of 1 and firing 3 decks

The conclusion is: Volleyguns are surprisingly better than expected and artillery all together can sort of stand it's ground compared to missle infantry (but only when range is detrimental), the most point-efficient usage of artillery is full 4 pieces battalion with LOrdinator.

 

Thanks for reading

[zilberfrid]

5 minutes ago, XReN said:

Lets crack Volleyguns with some more mathhammer, we're a city of engineers after all, here are some numbers:

Chance to jam 
2 Decks - 11.11% (with reroll) 33,33% (without reroll)
3 Decks - 18.53% (with reroll) 43,05% (without reroll)

Min and max number of shots without jamming:
1 Deck   - 1 to 6
2 Decks - 3 to 11
3 Decks - 6 to 15

Expected Average number of shots:
1 Deck   - 3.5 (this is the number I used in my calculations)
2 Decks - 7
3 Decks - 10

And here is damage calculations with some modifiers (it's a reroll of hit rolls in second column)

 

Now I made a rough comparisson in my head of 4 Volleyguns with Lord Ordinator and Cogsmith in a battalion (800 points) against 60 handgunners and General with his CA (700 points) in a following situation: turn one hangunners run and shoot via Command Trait and deal around half the damage that Volleyguns do with double shooting, second turn they get buffed and deal twice as much damage volleyguns can do without double shooting.

So almost equal if you commit to spam super hard, with handgunners being able to shoot at opponent's turn and Volleyguuns having superior range (and also Handgunners are not guaranteed to shoot in the first turn unless you spend a CP to run auto 6". Of course you can add a sorceress and Soulscream Bridge and deliver Handguner's full potential turn one.

Than I took a look at Hellstorms and they are actually worse than Volleyguns (which I expected), Volleyguns easily outperform Hellblasters even at 2+ save but at the cost of not being able to fire at all, so if you don't feel like taking a risk, take Hellstorm Rockets

Comparissons above are made assuming +1 to hit with rerolls of 1 and firing 3 decks

The conclusion is: Volleyguns are surprisingly better than expected and artillery all together can sort of stand it's ground compared to missle infantry (but only when range is detrimental), the most point-efficient usage of artillery is full 4 pieces battalion with LOrdinator.

 

Thanks for reading

Thanks! I was having a hard time finding out whether they worked or not. This does give me a conundrum, as I was planning not to get them and use the bits to make the base of a Luminarch, but I'd rather not.

[Bozly]

Ok so. Do not take this strategy seriously but there might be some validity to it. And by some i mean like not at all. 

 

Grey water fastness artillery company (edit: wait im not tripping) 4 artillery pieces can fire twice on the first battle round

 

So its like 1200 points with an ironclad or like 800 without but

 

5 hellblaster volley guns ~~potentially 4 With an ironclad let me double check if they get the keyword~~ dont take an iron clad

 

Lord ordinator

 

battlemage 

 

soulscream bridge. 

 

So if it goes off you just launch 5 artillery pieces across the board and danger close right in their face.  

 

Now this strategy requires you to roll well or else youre kinda ken boned by whatever lives but it’ll be funny. 

 

 

A non thought out non scientific list would be like

Battle mage

lord ordinator

drill master

cogsmith

runelord

freeguild general

 

freeguild guard x 10

Free guild hand gunner x10 

->  x10

20-30 long beards

 

5 dark riders maybe take 2 groups sub some long beards

 

5  rootin tootin point n shootin hell blastin machine

Battalion

Soulscream bridge

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by Bozly

[Bozly]

Straight up 27 d6 shots 3s and 3s rerolling ones and rerolling the d6 for shots

 

just messed around a bit with druuchi. Without calculating re rolling the average amount of shots we’re on average doing 27to38 wounds against an armor 4 target. Pretty wild. 

Edited October 5, 2019 by Bozly

[Double Misfire]

@Bozly

I like it! Is it gonna be possible to fit 5 artillery pieces, their crew, a Cogsmith and a Lord-Ordinator wholey within 6" of a Soulscream Bridge though? 😉

[Bozly]

4 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

@Bozly

I like it! Is it gonna be possible to fit 5 artillery pieces, their crew, a Cogsmith and a Lord-Ordinator wholey within 6" of a Soulscream Bridge though? 😉

I mean realistically theyre just on the monstrous cavalry bases so yeah not too bad i think.  

 

Edit: because we can consolodate a whole artillery piece onto on monstrous cavalry base or the celestar ballista base now

Edited October 5, 2019 by Bozly

[zilberfrid]

5 minutes ago, Bozly said:

I mean realistically theyre just on the monstrous cavalry bases so yeah not too bad i think. 

I think you still need to put the crew around the artillery piece.

[Gwendar]

So, here's my final concept for my 'Panzer Division' themed Greywater. Competitive? Nah. Fun? Yeah. I have other cities\units\armies for competitive play.

Stuff should be arriving by next week. The joy of getting all this painted and on the table with Ghost DIvision on repeat will soon be realized.
 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- Stronghold: Greywater Fastness

Leaders
Steam Tank with Commander (250)
- Trait: Drillmaster
- Artefact: Mastro Vivetti's Magnificent Macroscope
Freeguild General (100)
- Artefact: Steam-piston Plate Mail
Cogsmith (60)

Battleline
Steam Tank (200)
Steam Tank (200)
Steam Tank (200)
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)

War Machines
Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)
Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)
Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)
3 x Gyrocopters (210)
- Gun: Steam Gun

Battalions
Greywater Artillery Battery (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 121

 

Edited October 10, 2019 by Gwendar

[Dammaz]

Wow... Nice one.

I really want to play this list now while listening to Wagner...

 

[stus67]

Rockets or volley? What do you guys think would work better if you had 5?

[Gwendar]

Rockets are more consistent and hit at a much farther range... damage wise you can potentially get more out of those Volleyguns once they're within the short range especially. I see them as serving different purposes\targets altogether but I prefer to never risk them not shooting at all and therefore prefer the Rockets.

[Televiper11]

On 10/5/2019 at 3:46 PM, Gwendar said:

So, here's my final concept for my 'Panzer Division' themed Greywater. Competitive? Nah. Fun? Yeah. I have other cities\units\armies for competitive play.

Stuff should be arriving by next week. The joy of getting all this painted and on the table with Ghost DIvision on repeat will soon be realized.
 

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- Stronghold: Greywater Fastness

Leaders
Steam Tank with Commander (250)
- Trait: Drillmaster
- Artefact: Mastro Vivetti's Magnificent Macroscope
Freeguild General (100)
- Artefact: Mastro Vivetti's Magnificent Macroscope
Cogsmith (60)

Battleline
Steam Tank (200)
Steam Tank (200)
Steam Tank (200)
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)

War Machines
Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)
Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)
Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)
3 x Gyrocopters (210)
- Gun: Steam Gun

Battalions
Greywater Artillery Battery (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 121

 

I think you could kick some serious butt with that list.

[Gwendar]

@Televiper11 Well... compared to other CoS lists (Hallowheart, Tempest Eye) and the armies I commonly play against that would depend. Steam Tanks really are not that great and the list has no CC threat at all. It can (and will) be ran through easily but like I said; should be fun.

I had a good amount of store credit from a months-long escalation league that I won so I decided to go ahead and make an army that isn't as ultra-serious, but has room to build upon if I desire. I'll be busy painting the next few months, for sure.

[Televiper11]

4 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

@Televiper11 Well... compared to other CoS lists (Hallowheart, Tempest Eye) and the armies I commonly play against that would depend. Steam Tanks really are not that great and the list has no CC threat at all. It can (and will) be ran through easily but like I said; should be fun.

I had a good amount of store credit from a months-long escalation league that I won so I decided to go ahead and make an army that isn't as ultra-serious, but has room to build upon if I desire. I'll be busy painting the next few months, for sure.

I plan on running two Steam Tanks in Tempest Eye. I agree that on-their-own they are not that great but in TE that get a small buff.

What I like about your list is this... the bombardment factor, which forces your opponent to make hard choices about which units to target first. And Handgunners have overwatch so you have effective screens that your opponent will be hesitant to charge. 

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, Televiper11 said:

the bombardment factor

Which is honestly why I've also wanted to run them in TE as it would help mitigate the 2d6" movement. On the flipside, I would lose Drillmaster to allow the Tanks to rr 1's which is far more helpful than Hawk-Eyed getting them to a pointless 1+ to wound on the cannons.

I'll likely experiment with both, but I've already seen TE and HH being my 2 most played Cities across any setup I run.

[XReN]

Man this thread is quiet, @Double Misfire maybe you have any interesting list ideas to keep things going 'round here? I also struggle to make a list for this City that I'd like.

[Double Misfire]

2 hours ago, XReN said:

Man this thread is quiet, @Double Misfire maybe you have any interesting list ideas to keep things going 'round here? I also struggle to make a list for this City that I'd like.

I want to love Greywater Fastness's rules, I really do, but the strict focus on static, long ranged shooting, and not Steam Tanks or Gyrocopters is making me seriously look at keeping my army in Tempest's Eye (where they landed up when Firestorm came out on account of GWF being the only city to not use Dispossessed, I even painted up a Tempest Lods Lord-Ordinator), or rebranding them as Spell Hunters using Hallowheart's rules.  

Gunline armies are horrible to play against, and if Realmscape features are in play run the risk of being a guaranteed loss. It would have been nice if GWF's allegiance abilities and battalion could have done more for the non static Ironweld units (which are arguably better under other cities), giving at least the option to non gunline without feeling sub-optimal. Granted, part of me's keen to go all in on a full Artillery Company battalion + Ordinator for almost half my points, take off almost half my opponent's army in the first turn and then play a vastly quicker game.  

Small glimmers of hope I've come up with trying to craft non gunline GWF lists (with little success):

• Three stacking -1 to hit spells with Descending Ash Cloud + a Sorceress and Hyish Battlemage. Possibly throw in a Nomad Prince too.
• 11"  Gyrocopter steam cannons, potentially with +1 to hit on a unit of 3 via a Runelord.
• Drillmaster on non stationary missile units like Sisters of the Thorn and Shadow Warriors (though the Tempest's Eye trait  Hawk-eyed) arguably does this but better).
• Steam-piston Plate Mail for a 2+ save big monster (Hammerhal can also do this...)

 

If I've missed anything, please let me know. I'm as keen to shake some use out of GWF as @XReN is.

[Gypsy_Pistolero]

Looking at starting a dwarf focused city army was wondering peoples opinions of 2 possible starting lists, 

 

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Greywater Fastness

Leaders
Lord-Ordinator (140)
Cogsmith (60)
- General
- Trait: Drillmaster
Runelord (90)

Battleline
10 x Irondrakes (150)
10 x Irondrakes (150)

Units
10 x Hammerers (140)

War Machines
Helblaster Volley Gun (120)
Helblaster Volley Gun (120)

Total: 970 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 59
 

List 2 is pretty much the same except making the rune lord the general and dropping a unit of drakes and the Lord ordinator for a celestial hurricanum with mage 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Gypsy_Pistolero

[XReN]

1 hour ago, Double Misfire said:

I want to love Greywater Fastness's rules, I really do, but the strict focus on static, long ranged shooting, and not Steam Tanks or Gyrocopters is making me seriously look at keeping my army in Tempest's Eye (where they landed up when Firestorm came out on account of GWF being the only city to not use Dispossessed, I even painted up a Tempest Lods Lord-Ordinator), or rebranding them as Spell Hunters using Hallowheart's rules.  

Gunline armies are horrible to play against, and if Realmscape features are in play run the risk of being a guaranteed loss. It would have been nice if GWF's allegiance abilities and battalion could have done more for the non static Ironweld units (which are arguably better under other cities), giving at least the option to non gunline without feeling sub-optimal. Granted, part of me's keen to go all in on a full Artillery Company battalion + Ordinator for almost half my points, take off almost half my opponent's army in the first turn and then play a vastly quicker game.  

Small glimmers of hope I've come up with trying to craft non gunline GWF lists (with little success):

• Three stacking -1 to hit spells with Descending Ash Cloud + a Sorceress and Hyish Battlemage. Possibly throw in a Nomad Prince too.
• 11"  Gyrocopter steam cannons, potentially with +1 to hit on a unit of 3 via a Runelord.
• Drillmaster on non stationary missile units like Sisters of the Thorn and Shadow Warriors (though the Tempest's Eye trait  Hawk-eyed) arguably does this but better).
• Steam-piston Plate Mail for a 2+ save big monster (Hammerhal can also do this...)

 

If I've missed anything, please let me know. I'm as keen to shake some use out of GWF as @XReN is.

After a lot of bashing my head against the wall I came up with this list

 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar

Leaders
Cogsmith (60)
- Artefact: Mastro Vivetti's Maginificent Macroscope
- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)
Freeguild General (100)
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Artefact: Steam-piston Plate Mail
- Spell: Lore of Smog - Descending Ash Cloud (Greywater Fastness Wizard)
Battlemage (90)
- Spell: Lore of Smog - Choking Fumes (Greywater Fastness Wizard)
- Mortal Realm: Hysh
Battlemage (90)
- Spell: Lore of Smog - Choking Fumes (Greywater Fastness Wizard)
- Mortal Realm: Chamon
Lord-Ordinator (140)
- General
- Trait: Drillmaster

Battleline
30 x Freeguild Handgunners (300)
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)
20 x Freeguild Guard (160)
- Halberds and Shields
20 x Freeguild Guard (160)
- Halberds and Shields

War Machines
Helblaster Volley Gun (120)
Helblaster Volley Gun (120)
Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)
Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)

Battalions
Greywater Artillery Company (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 134

That is pretty generic "Everyone loves Celestial Hurricanum list"
Compliments arty by making it a 2+ to hit when within aura of both the Lordinator and Hurricanum, good GWS spells by buffing battlemages that are honestly just too good not to take (Hi Hollowheart) and together with City's CA (the only scenario it's actually good at) it makes Handgunners 2+ to hit even when they move and when they don't - it negates any -1 to hit.

Sadly no tanks, no copters (btw the stupid wording on steam guns don't allow them to benefit from battle trait), you just pray that your firepower, MWs and to hit penalties would allow you to cleanse the table early enough to still win by points. 

Also you can somewhat safely take first turn with it because Hold the Line doesn't prevent you from moving - you just use it and wholle opponent's turn he has to face 2+ 2+ halberds and handguns.

[Furythrow2]

If people have decided that gunline armies are no fun then maybe the ranger command trait offers a bit of fun with run and shoot? At that point you have steam tanks moving 3d6 per turn and still shooting. Alternatively pretend those volley guns little gun wagons, try and rush up the board and double tap with the battalion. If you're really scraping the barrel use it with the general on griffon ( with +1 save) and give those pistoliers run and shoot. 

[XReN]

13 hours ago, Furythrow2 said:

If people have decided that gunline armies are no fun then maybe the ranger command trait offers a bit of fun with run and shoot? At that point you have steam tanks moving 3d6 per turn and still shooting. Alternatively pretend those volley guns little gun wagons, try and rush up the board and double tap with the battalion. If you're really scraping the barrel use it with the general on griffon ( with +1 save) and give those pistoliers run and shoot. 

If I manage to slap together enough units untill this Saturday I'll run this Command Trait in Meeting Engagements list, so my Rearguard (consisting of Cogsmith, 10 Freeguild Guards and 2 Volleyguns) can get into position faster. The copters would also benefit from this trait to make long bombing runs and still shoot their guns.

And gunlines are fun when they can actually push onto objectives fast enough to also win the game

Edited October 17, 2019 by XReN

[Agent of Chaos]

Thoughts on this list? Basically everything castles around the hurricanum with shadow warriors to drop on objectives once everything has been shot to pieces.

The rockets hit on 3+, reroll 1's and shoot twice in the first turn.

Volley Gun hits on 2+ (assuming prayer success) rerolling 1's. 

The Iron Drakes hit on 2+, reroll 1's with rend -2 (assuming prayer success) and have 2 shots each assuming no movement. 

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Greywater Fastness

Leaders
Runelord (90)
- General
- Trait: Drillmaster
- Artefact: Steam-piston Plate Mail
Cogsmith (60)
- Artefact: Mastro Vivetti's Maginificent Macroscope
Battlemage (90)
- Spell: Lore of Smog - Descending Ash Cloud (Greywater Fastness Wizard)
- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)
- Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Battleline
20 x Irondrakes (300)
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields

Units
10 x Shadow Warriors (110)
10 x Shadow Warriors (110)

Behemoths
Celestial Hurricanum (220)

War Machines
Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)
Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)
Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)
Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)
Helblaster Volley Gun (120)

Battalions
Greywater Artillery Company (120)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 121