AoS 2 Cities of Sigmar Discussion: Hallowheart

[Undeadly]

Just now, mmimzie said:

First page my list is there. I think blackguard as where it's at. With wildform you  can go 15" and charge with +3. While darkshards can also be buffed to get early reach. I don't personally rate the dragon super high though as it's range is very limited.

I'd say that bigger base, higher wounds/movement, and the Flying movement makes her really invaluable; she helps keep the buffs going, keeps up with the units themselves as they go blazing off without her. The spell can be fantastic as well, since it can deal a ****** ton of wounds on units that have pretty crappy saves. Plus, her other command ability can help Blackguard get even more blendy.

[Charlo]

Sorc on black dragon is really tasty looking at it. Bladewind will absolutely murder hordes like you say... Which is very useful as other spells will want to go for tougher targets.

[mmimzie]

It is 300 pts though. I guess it does kind of move the needle when i compare it to the lord of change that i still bring and does really well.  I just feel her breath range is soooo short which is the main thing on her. 

She is really good at keeping up with the super fast blackguard as well... hmmmmm... Still on the fence but i teatering here. 

[mmimzie]

41 minutes ago, Izotzuhure said:

Would a -1 be better than an extra 4+ against MW to survive the CA?

Sorry got distracted my black guard. 

yeah as you say you have retinue for that It's the benefit you get for having your general be one of your wizard. the other benefit is more CP from your adjunct who will almost always be near by. 

PLus as you say you have healing like sear wounds, and you could fit in emerald lifeswarm if you wanted even more healing. 

[PJetski]

I think Hallowheart has the legs to go all the way to the top tier.

My initial draft is shockingly similar to the list @Peegee put on page 2, but it seems we differ on some small choices like battleline, which endless spells to bring, and the spell selection:

 

320 Frostheart Phoenix (Command Trait: Famed Spell Hunter, Artefact: Whitefire Tome, Spell: Elemental Cyclone)
90 Battlemage (Chain Lightning, Spell: Roaming Wildfire)
90 Sorceress (Spell: Ignite Weapons)
140 Knight Incantor (Spell: Sear Wounds)
270 Luminark (Artefact: Ignax's Scales, Spell: Crystal Aegis)
140 Whitefire Retinue

80 10x Freeguild Guard
80 10x Freeguild Guard
420 30x Phoenix Guard 

100 Everblaze Comet
70 Spell Portal
60 Geminids
30 Quicksilver Swords
50 Pendulum
50 Lifeswarm
10 Malevolent Maelstrom 

Total: 2000/2000

I like Famed Spell Hunter because being able to easily unbind and recast an endless spell is amazing when you have powerful spells like Everblaze Comet, Geminids, and Pendulum. You can also use it to get more healing from the Lifeswarm.

The area effect damage of this list is absurd - Comet + Geminids + Chain Lightning + Roaming Wildfire + Pendulum - any army with stacked up units is going to suffer some serious damage. Then there are spells like Burning Gaze (Luminark) and Elemental Cyclone to whittle down hordes.

37 minutes ago, Charlo said:

Sorc on black dragon is really tasty looking at it. Bladewind will absolutely murder hordes like you say... Which is very useful as other spells will want to go for tougher targets.

I'm not sold on the Sorceress on Black Dragon. Bladewind is a good spell in a meta full of units with poor saves but lots of save bonuses (Fyreslayers, DOK) but those same armies also ignore mortal wounds... Most of her warscroll is built on buffing Darkling Covens units and I don't see myself including many of them in my Hallowheart lists.

Edited October 3, 2019 by PJetski

[SwampHeart]

My biggest concern with Blackguard is what happens when you play Slaanesh or FEC and they swing before you. 

@PJetski You get to pick a 2nd spell on all those casters (except the Frostie) - not that it super matters but just as a heads up. 

Edited October 3, 2019 by SwampHeart

[PJetski]

1 minute ago, SwampHeart said:

 You get to pick a 2nd spell on all those casters (except the Frostie) - not that it super matters but just as a heads up. 

Well that's just icing on the cake

[Frowny]

People seem to be spending really a lot on endless spells. That seems ok, but maybe is unnecessary... I can imagine wanting to cast 4 of the tome spells every turn (wildfire, heal whatever used the command ability, ignite weapons, either the 4++reflect or the bubble ignore wounds). And then still wanting to cast a lot of my warscrolls spells (chain lightning, phas protection, comet of cassandora or burning gaze). Sometimes elemental cyclone or even prime elctrids are good too, especially with +3 to cast.

This doesn't actually leave a ton of casts for 5 endless spells per turn. It's also a ton cheaper.

Clearly endless spells will have a place but might be better served with 1 to 4 good ones, rather than 7. 

I think the weakness of this army may be poor mobility for objectives since a lot of points are tied up in a wizard bunker. Therefore using the extra points for allied tree revenants or shadow warriors or something fast and killy like wild riders or another big squad to go take objectives may be more valuable than yet another endless spell.

Food for thought: warding brand on a bunch of cheap infantry is incredibly good mw output. Not quite as targeted obviously but you also get huge value from just having infantry to hold objectives take objectives of guard your wizards anyway. A 10 man suicide squad into a big enemy could reflect back a ton of wounds. Pistoliers might be good for this. Or freeguild guard. Or even flagellants. Or single chariots.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Frowny

[Undeadly]

29 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

My biggest concern with Blackguard is what happens when you play Slaanesh or FEC and they swing before you. 

@PJetski You get to pick a 2nd spell on all those casters (except the Frostie) - not that it super matters but just as a heads up. 

Thats precisely why you bring those super fast Darkshards and Sorceress, along with a some sturdy chaff. A Terrorgheist and Keeper of Secrets are both scary hombres, but if you can smack them with enough spell power or fire power, then suddenly they aren't quite so terrifying. Although CP expensive, a fully buffed unit of darkshards can easily get in range and outright kill a KoS or at least wound it. And thats only if it didn't get any wounds what so ever from your hero phase. And even if they do decide to charge, you still have your MW on a 4+ suicide bomb to finish them off.

[SwampHeart]

19 minutes ago, Undeadly said:

Thats precisely why you bring those super fast Darkshards and Sorceress, along with a some sturdy chaff. A Terrorgheist and Keeper of Secrets are both scary hombres, but if you can smack them with enough spell power or fire power, then suddenly they aren't quite so terrifying. Although CP expensive, a fully buffed unit of darkshards can easily get in range and outright kill a KoS or at least wound it. And thats only if it didn't get any wounds what so ever from your hero phase. And even if they do decide to charge, you still have your MW on a 4+ suicide bomb to finish them off.

Yeah I'm just thinking about it from the perspective of my HoS list. I feel like I'd have way more trouble with PG than Blackguard. In a 'mirror' (between my ideal BG list and HoS) I win the drop contest with HoS and deploy to take the aggressive first turn where I'm entirely capable of making a turn one charge with multiple units - KoS moves 26" before charge with a 1 CP expenditure, 28 with cogs, Bestigors move 16/18", same thing and all charges are at +1/3 with cogs. You'd have to screen aggressively but I feel like the only screening option are the shooters and if I can get through those its still a win. 

I'm not saying this guaranteed or that you'll face that type of set up regularly, its just something I think about because of my HoS army. 

EDIT - Blackguard are the same cost as Phoenix Guard at max size. 

Edited October 3, 2019 by SwampHeart

[Undeadly]

1 minute ago, SwampHeart said:

Yeah I'm just thinking about it from the perspective of my HoS list. I feel like I'd have way more trouble with PG than Blackguard. In a 'mirror' (between my ideal BG list and HoS) I win the drop contest with HoS and deploy to take the aggressive first turn where I'm entirely capable of making a turn one charge with multiple units - KoS moves 26" before charge with a 1 CP expenditure, 28 with cogs, Bestigors move 16/18", same thing and all charges are at +1/3 with cogs. You'd have to screen aggressively but I feel like the only screening option are the shooters and if I can get through those its still a win. 

I'm not saying this guaranteed or that you'll face that type of set up regularly, its just something I think about because of my HoS army. 

Thats true; but one good thing to keep in mind is what units we have access to. Darkshards would be more along the lines of a secondary chaff, only when needed; the real defenders in my list would probably be either something super tanky, like a phalanx of Phoenix Guard, or a big unit of Sequitors, or something I can throw away for cheap, like a few units of Dreadspears or Freeguild guard, which I can get 40 wounds on the table with a paltry 320 or 280 respectively, both of which still have a 4+ save. 

 

The problem I think Slaanesh especially will have with them is that due to how bonkers Hallowheart is magic wise, even Slaanesh will struggle to shut them down entirely, which when coupled with some additional shooting from something cheap or deadly, like Darkshards or Irondrakes, means that if you don't break my front line, and loose the roll off, you will get horribly punished via a mountains worth of short range fire power. That leaves my unit of Black Guard to go in for the kill, speeding over to the objectives to mop up who ever is there. 

[SwampHeart]

Go for it, different experiences will help build community knowledge no matter what. I think for now I'm going to stick with PG because I don't like my chances trying out aggro the current meta. 

[PJetski]

I misunderstood Whitefire Tome - I thought it also gave you the WIZARD keyword. Unfortunately it does not, so my Phoenix will not be able to get the +3 dispel from Famed Spell Hunter and cannot cast Endless Spells.

This has certainly thrown a wrench into the works.

[mmimzie]

15 minutes ago, PJetski said:

I misunderstood Whitefire Tome - I thought it also gave you the WIZARD keyword. Unfortunately it does not, so my Phoenix will not be able to get the +3 dispel from Famed Spell Hunter and cannot cast Endless Spells.

This has certainly thrown a wrench into the works.

Also no bonuses from the hollow heart command ability.

 

 

28 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Go for it, different experiences will help build community knowledge no matter what. I think for now I'm going to stick with PG because I don't like my chances trying out aggro the current meta. 

I think HoS would definitly be a problem getting to definitly always out drop us. 

that said since we aren't skaven and don't have units as tanky as clan rats to eat charges. I think it's best to use multiple small screen over one big unit hoping it can eat the charge. 

Pheonix guard can be do the job, but you can also do the same job with multiple layers of chaffe squads such as freeguild or fantatics if you want to be cheap or dark shards if you want to have a little more ranged punch for other match ups. 

[stratigo]

Can Phoenix guard survive a charge from a keeper and max beasigor unit on turn one? With the frost heart Phoenix in support? With a luminark?

[Charlo]

11 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Can Phoenix guard survive a charge from a keeper and max beasigor unit on turn one? With the frost heart Phoenix in support? With a luminark?

Considering rend 1 they'll stop about 2/3 wounds coming their way if thats what you mean. They're insanely resilient! 

[SwampHeart]

13 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Can Phoenix guard survive a charge from a keeper and max beasigor unit on turn one? With the frost heart Phoenix in support? With a luminark?

Max Bestigors (30) do 69 wounds before saves (at least that's the strict average #). Operating off that number and sticking with simple averages 46 go through after armor saves (5+ due to rend 1). 23 go in after the DPR, 19 through after the Luminark save. So 10ish PG should survive that charge. 

With the Frostheart debuff the numbers change to - 53 wounds, 35 after armor, 18 after DPR, 15 after Luminark. 

Keeper is far more variable - depends on CP usage, relics, traits, etc. But there's a good chance she can finish the PG. The key I think to playing the Drove style HoS list is to deploy back to deny the first turn charge, the HoS player likely forces you to take first turn but that's fine at that point because you get to set up your buffs. 

Edited October 3, 2019 by SwampHeart

[stratigo]

1 minute ago, SwampHeart said:

Max Bestigors (30) do 69 wounds before saves (at least that's the strict average #). Operating off that number and sticking with simple averages 46 go through after armor saves (5+ due to rend 1). 23 go in after the DPR, 19 through after the Luminark save. So 10ish PG should survive that charge. 

The issue is that beastigor will get to fight twice with the keeper command ability 

[SwampHeart]

13 minutes ago, stratigo said:

The issue is that beastigor will get to fight twice with the keeper command ability 

Incorrect - Bestigors are not Hedonites and cannot benefit from the command ability.  I've edited the above to include the Frostheart math (its worth about 4 PG surviving). As well as how I'd attempt to play against HoS. 

Its also very difficult to get 30 Bestigors into anything, I play with them all the time and the most I've ever gotten into a single unit is 20. 

Edited October 3, 2019 by SwampHeart

[Mandzak-Miniatures]

Has anyone investigated if Stormsire’s Cursbreakers have any potential?

essentially another wizard hero group with extra spell or u bind?

[stratigo]

3 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

Incorrect - Bestigors are not Hedonites and cannot benefit from the command ability.  I've edited the above to include the Frostheart math (its worth about 4 PG surviving). As well as how I'd attempt to play against HoS. 

Its also very difficult to get 30 Bestigors into anything, I play with them all the time and the most I've ever gotten into a single unit is 20. 

That is good to know.

 

But if you are using pheonix guard as your screen, they'll be stretched pretty darn wide, so it is easier to hit with a big unit.

 

But if you can keep around 10 alive, I think that is a worthwhile investment.

[mmimzie]

The above is why i personal like multiple small squads of dark shards as your screen.  Makes it tough we to lose as many models and you have few points on the line. Also you don't have to buy an early CP or have an artifact to auto bass your battleshock. I like the dark shards because if you go first you can potentially punish by taking more objectives all over the map or put out some serious shooting damage to slannesh's important characters. 

[decker_cky]

Very unlikely that 30 bestigors can all strike in a single combat given their base size.

[Aipaca]

I'm personally super interested in a unit of 40 flagellants with Warding Brand cast on them. Charge them up the board, they deal mortals when they die, mortals when they run away, are decent on the charge (especially with Ignite Weapons on them, taking the mto 4+/2+/-/1), and take up plenty of board real estate, all for the low low price of 280 points. A couple of those units sent in one after the other will wreak havoc (although they are shut down pretty hard by shooting).

[stus67]

I'm just trying to figure out where to fit greatswords in a hallowheart list. They're some of my favorite models so I don't want to ditch them.