AoS 2 Cities of Sigmar Discussion: Hallowheart

[zilberfrid]

37 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

I mean they're magical supermen - they shoot bolts of lightning from their bows and have the fantasy equivalent of RPG crossbows. I'm not real hung up on if they 'work' or not. I routinely fight an army with a floating magical frog and another with elves that ride eels in a quasi magic sea. So yeah they have huge shoulder pads but they paint up nice because they have lots of clean surfaces.  

I get your point, I'm just not that into magical supermen.

[Mandzak-Miniatures]

I’m excited to get the book on Saturday and still trying to figure out how things work because I don’t play.

Really wish the Celestant prime was a wizard! Trying to figure out a good Set of caster heroes. The SCE ones look pretty nice. But I guess the main reason for their inclusion is for comet access?

[Charlo]

17 minutes ago, Televiper11 said:

Hammerers are awesome.

They are!

I can't say them without speaking like a Dwarf from Total War either...

"HAMMERERRRGGHHHS"

[zilberfrid]

3 minutes ago, Mandzak-Miniatures said:

I’m excited to get the book on Saturday and still trying to figure out how things work because I don’t play.

Really wish the Celestant prime was a wizard! Trying to figure out a good Set of caster heroes. The SCE ones look pretty nice. But I guess the main reason for their inclusion is for comet access?

The knight incantor has a ridiculous save for a wizard and a guaranteed unbind, even with only Dais Arcanum, he's sitting at 2+ save, and will cast quite few kabooms from all over the place.

Edited October 3, 2019 by zilberfrid

[SwampHeart]

3 minutes ago, Mandzak-Miniatures said:

But I guess the main reason for their inclusion is for comet access?

I'd take the Incantor even without the comet - 3+ save, 1 free unbind a game, spirit flasks for the suicide run as well. 

[zilberfrid]

2 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

I'd take the Incantor even without the comet - 3+ save, 1 free unbind a game, spirit flasks for the suicide run as well. 

That need not be a suicide run, if you give him 4+ save against mortal wounds from Aqshi.

[SwampHeart]

Just now, zilberfrid said:

That need not be a suicide run, if you give him 4+ save against mortal wounds from Aqshi.

I feel like that has to go on my Luminark/whatever my main engine is for the D6 MWs casting bonus. 

[mmimzie]

1 minute ago, zilberfrid said:

That need not be a suicide run, if you give him 4+ save against mortal wounds from Aqshi.

It's not a sucide if you have 4 wounds remaining. The sucide is the melee attacks you are likely about to take back. 

I think maybe if you take the incantor i wouldn't take the comet. As you have to think of the incantor as starting to cost 240 pts if you bring the incantor, as he's the only wizard who can that comet. If your incantor get shot off the table  your comet also dies. You'd want to make the incantor the general for protective retinue and take the artifact for ignax scales to protect against dying to spells or the artifact for the extra -1 to hit to save you from shooting. 

[zilberfrid]

3 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

I feel like that has to go on my Luminark/whatever my main engine is for the D6 MWs casting bonus. 

Then still, you have your Luminarch granting him saves against mortals. Not as good a chance, but still...

Edited October 3, 2019 by zilberfrid

[mmimzie]

3 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

whatever my main engine is for the D6 MWs casting bonus. 

I'm of the opinion that if you bring a general on foot they can also do this job. Honestly any one with ignax scales can do it as a D6 from even at 4 hp isn't super likely to kill your wizard. WIth all the healing hollow heart has access to you don't nessarily need the luminark or a big target to hit.  

That said a pheonix with annoited made wizard via the artifact makes a decent target as he has that +4 wound ignore. 

[SwampHeart]

3 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

As you have to think of the incantor as starting to cost 240 pts if you bring the incantor, as he's the only wizard who can that comet. If your incantor get shot off the table  your comet also dies.

There's not a shooting army I can think of that gets him off the table before you cast the Comet and even one cast is often worth the 100 points. Especially against bunkered characters. 

[SwampHeart]

1 minute ago, mmimzie said:

That said a pheonix with annoited made wizard via the artifact makes a decent target as he has that +4 wound ignore. 

You can use him early on but eventually if you're getting the most out of him he's not going to be in range to provide the bonus to cast buff. If I wasn't running a PG unit I'd probably use a foot character w/scales for the D6 MWs but PG are conditional Battle Line so I have to spend on an anointed (and I can't reasonably see spending 100 points for one on foot). That whole process is what informed my list building honestly. 

[zilberfrid]

2 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

It's not a sucide if you have 4 wounds remaining. The sucide is the melee attacks you are likely about to take back. 

I think maybe if you take the incantor i wouldn't take the comet. As you have to think of the incantor as starting to cost 240 pts if you bring the incantor, as he's the only wizard who can that comet. If your incantor get shot off the table  your comet also dies. You'd want to make the incantor the general for protective retinue and take the artifact for ignax scales to protect against dying to spells or the artifact for the extra -1 to hit to save you from shooting. 

I am going for a target rich environment.

Not Hallowheart for that list (Tempest's Eye), but there are multiple things to shoot, and none of them likes being shot.

General with thermalrider cloak gives out bonusses to wound and can keep up well enough with the Outriders to make them quite dangerous if they manage to stand still. Will have a few running guard to be his retinue, which will take a few wounds

General on Griffin is quite a menace, but it gets worse, as he brings immunity to battleshock in 12"

Knight Incantor is bursting mortal wounds, generating CP's or buffing allies, and will be on a Dais Arcanum, so not the easiest to gun down. Will probably be controlling the burning head

Hurricanum is, well, a hurricanum, which is enough. Will probably be controlling the Emerald Lifeswarm.

Then we have the meat of the army, outriders, pistoleers, and a group of greatswords (which may become something else) that is actually rather squishy, but can the opponent really afford to attack them?

[mmimzie]

3 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

There's not a shooting army I can think of that gets him off the table before you cast the Comet and even one cast is often worth the 100 points. Especially against bunkered characters. 

This army is easily that shooting army, or that is to say the whole cities book. More so tzneetch and skaven can put out this level of damage on the first turn. 

This army along 30 sisters of the watch will mence most heros and can be boosted up the table using the soulscream bridge allowing them to count as stationary for double tap. 30 dark shards with ignite weapons can easily rock a knight incantor, geting run and shoot potentially moving 13" 15 with wild form and shooting from 16" out if in hollow heart you could get ignite weapons. 

[SwampHeart]

1 minute ago, mmimzie said:

This army is easily that shooting army, or that is to say the whole cities book. More so tzneetch and skaven can put out this level of damage on the first turn. 

You can physically prevent him from being seen, the only thing that can shoot him is Stormfiends. That's what I mean by there is no army that reasonably has the firepower to remove the Incantor before casting. Additionally you're out dropping most Skaven builds (and are in competition with Hallowheart in the mid range drop game in general). You can really easily physically hide the model behind a Luminark (I know because I did). Additionally the Incantor benefits from LoS and if in terrain a 2+ save. 

Edited October 3, 2019 by SwampHeart

[Izotzuhure]

At the moment, the list I'm thinking of is something like this: 

Allegiance: Hallowheart

Leaders

Lord Arcanum (160) - General

- Veteran of the Blazing Crusades + Ignax Scales

Battlemage (90) - Hysh

Battlemage (90) - Ghur

Battlemage (90) - Azyr

Anointed on Frost Phoenix (320)

- Whitefire Tome to get access to Sear Wounds

Gotrek (520)

Battleline

20 x Freeguild Guard (160)

10 x Freeguild Guard (80)

10 x Freeguild Guard (80)

Battalion

Whitefire Retinue (140)

Endless Spells

Everblaze Comet (100)

Umbral Spellportal (70)

Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)

Prismatic Palisade (30)

 

Total: 1990 / 2000

If I removed Gotrek I could probably optimise it with something better (either another phoenix plus khinerai or phoenix guard to have a proper anvil, for example) but I would like to have a go first to see how he works considering I could make him go faster (Ghur battlemage spell) without making the enemy army get closer to me. Also, he hits quite hard while being very difficult to take him down. Hysh spell could make him more tanky and Ignite Weapons even more killy. 

The Lord Arcanum is there to give me access to the Comet and have a tankier general. I could use a Knight Incantor instead, losing 1 wound but gaining the option of adding the Racist Swords.  Also, I modeled the comet like the Moon from Majora's Mask and I think is kind of funny to see how it falls all the time. Swapping the command trait for the +3 to disperse so I can spam it is also on the table, though the guard is quite low on bravery. 

The Phoenix is completely independent of the rest of the army as it has a healing spell, getting +1 armour and the chance of D6 healing wounds. It wouldn't get the amazing extra casting but it's only a 6 to cast. Worst case scenario, someone else could cast it for her. 

Geminids and Palisade give me some good defensive options and I can disrupt the opponent's movement with the latter. Depending on the terrain I could even use the Comet to affect the movement as I could place on a chokepoint making them change their options. Hordes wouldn't be a problem thanks to Spellportal + Cyclone and I could damage more elite armies with a combination of the Azyr spell + Roaming wildfire. 

P.S. Yes, the whole army is inspired by The Legend of Zelda, not only the Comet. 

[mmimzie]

2 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

You can physically prevent him from being seen, the only thing that can shoot him is Stormfiends. You can really easily physically hide the model behind a Luminark (I know because I did). Additionally the Incantor benefits from LoS and if in terrain a 2+ save. 

I saw skip trying to prove you are out of line of sight and give them the -1 artifact if your gonna take the knight incator+comet. 

I'm not saying the incantor is bad, i'm saying the knight+comet is fragile as is a lot in a small package that a lot of armies can deal with.  IF you take the comet you have to consider how you are going to protect the incantor, you don't want 240pts to be the vulnerable, and your proving it by telling me how you need to protect the model, which... is my point. 

[Charlo]

13 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

That said a pheonix with annoited made wizard via the artifact makes a decent target as he has that +4 wound ignore. 

So this was going to be my go-to combo, but I don't believe the artefact gives you the WIZARD key word, it just lets you cast a spell so you cannot use the Anointed as a target for Arcane Channeling.

[Charlo]

@IzotzuhureI like the use of Gotrek, he's a great deterrant against would be invaders of the inner circle of wizards... However he and the comet are a whopping 620pts of your list... You also only have 40 bodies to fall back on. Sure you're immune to BS but I'd wonder if you wouldn't fold too quickly to some strong opposition. Then again the spells may well give you some decen control!

[mmimzie]

3 minutes ago, Izotzuhure said:

P.S. Yes, the whole army is inspired by The Legend of Zelda, not only the Comet. 

rad

 

4 minutes ago, Izotzuhure said:

Comet and have a tankier general

IF your going comet you have to protect that model, making them your general and getting the -1 to shooting artifact is a good idea. 

 

5 minutes ago, Izotzuhure said:

10 x Freeguild Guard (80)

could be dread spears and could be modeled like those spear weilding guards from zelda, would be cool and you ahve the 10 spare points. 

 

6 minutes ago, Izotzuhure said:

Ignite Weapons even more killy. 

gotrek does not need ignite weapons it won't move the needle much, if it's stoping you from casting literally anything else than don't take it. 

 

7 minutes ago, Izotzuhure said:

Battlemage (90) - Azyr

This man wants a balewind vortex. Could model it off one of those flying leaf plants that you grow from magic beans. 

[SwampHeart]

1 minute ago, mmimzie said:

I'm saying the knight+comet is fragile as is a lot in a small package that a lot of armies can deal with. 

I'm disagreeing with you on this premise. What I'm telling you is protecting the model is something you can do naturally with 0 other investment in the build. You're going to take a Hurricanum/Luminark and likely a Lifeswarm. That said we clearly don't agree on the conceit, and legitimately Comet isn't a requirement, you could easily spend on the 100 points on other endless spells or another unit. The Incantor is still worth taking without the comet.  

[Izotzuhure]

@Charlo You are quite right, 620 points it's a huge gamble. It if comes to the worst I could always swap the Comet for the Sun + Vortex. That way I could still have reach and another threat. It would still be lots of points while having mostly chaff, so I better roll amazingly!

@mmimzie Would a -1 be better than an extra 4+ against MW to survive the CA? Probably, as I could still pass them to the retinue and the rest I could heal them. If it's still really wounded, I could have a go with a different wizard perhaps. 

I just checked, the Lord Exorcist is 120, it would allow me to include the Vortex... I mean, it's not the most amazing character, but it's cheap haha

Edited October 3, 2019 by Izotzuhure

[Undeadly]

Why no love for Blackguard and Sorceress on Black Dragon? Black Guard seem crazy fast and crazy deadly, when combined with a Sorceress' command ability and her mere presence. And speaking of the Sorceress, she can easily blend away whole swathes of hordes with a deadly combo of her breath attack and elemental cyclone, and then finish them off with a fairly tough combat phase.  Sure, Black Guard don't get that test 4+, but you get them for 40 points less, while being twice as deadly and twice as fast thanks to their ability to charge and run with the Sorceress.

[SwampHeart]

3 minutes ago, Undeadly said:

Why no love for Blackguard and Sorceress on Black Dragon? Black Guard seem crazy fast and crazy deadly, when combined with a Sorceress' command ability and her mere presence. And speaking of the Sorceress, she can easily blend away whole swathes of hordes with a deadly combo of her breath attack and elemental cyclone, and then finish them off with a fairly tough combat phase.  Sure, Black Guard don't get that test 4+, but you get them for 40 points less, while being twice as deadly and twice as fast thanks to their ability to charge and run with the Sorceress.

Nothing wrong with that set up, its inherently more fragile but not bad at all. I play against a lot of high octane offensive builds so I prefer the 4+ DPR over the increased offense of the Black Guard but I don't think a Sorceress and BG combo is non viable. 

[mmimzie]

17 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

I'm disagreeing with you on this premise. What I'm telling you is protecting the model is something you can do naturally with 0 other investment in the build. You're going to take a Hurricanum/Luminark and likely a Lifeswarm. That said we clearly don't agree on the conceit, and legitimately Comet isn't a requirement, you could easily spend on the 100 points on other endless spells or another unit. The Incantor is still worth taking without the comet.  

Yeah as i said in my last post i don't think the incantor is bad, where it gets concerning is when it's the only thing keep up your comet. Putting the comet another way all of order has had access to incantor+comet as an ally and most folks don't bring it bring. It stays mostly stormcast as stormcast can grab multiple stormcast wizards to make sure they don't lose access to thier comet, and even then some time they don't take it. 

It's a thing to think about with your comet and i think it's something you definitly should consider if you want to have the comet in your army. Is the comet bad? no, is the incantor bad? no. But it is 240 pts for 5 wounds with a 3+ save and most likely always -1 to hit. 

 

10 minutes ago, Undeadly said:

Why no love for Blackguard

First page my list is there (whitefire retinue has since been removed in the latest interation). I think blackguard as where it's at. With wildform you  can go 15" and charge with +3. While darkshards can also be buffed to get early reach. I don't personally rate the dragon super high though as it's range is very limited.

I don't rate the pheonix guard super high as they aren't particularly good as soaking wounds. they are about as good as freeguild guard. Which the phoenix guard shine is when life swarm lets you bring models back, however.  As that is a very effective use of points. 

Edited October 3, 2019 by mmimzie