The Future of DEATH is AoS

[Tropical Ghost General]

OK, so this is a general thread to discuss the future direction of DEATH as a faction in AoS. 

At the recent warhammer world GT Finals Death had a poor showing. Only 5 Death armies out of 65 players. 3 were FEC, 1 was TK and the other was Grand Alliance. 

And it's not just at the recent GT that Death has had poor showing as a faction, with the release of new books for other armies and factions, the amount of players using Death armies has dropped off a fair bit.

We are currently meant to be the showcase baddies of the story arc, yet fewer and fewer players are using them in competition play. And I know that comp play isn't everything, but it does give a really good early indication of how things will be for the less competitive scenes. 

Now stuff like the activation wars hasn't helped, as the 5 legions in LoN and NH have no real answer to that situation. And I know that the upcoming Bonereapers release will see a resurgence in people using Death armies (it's going to be so OP judging from play testers comments and rumours 😒). 

But Bonereapers aside, how will the rest of the Death factions hold up as the game progressese and newer books are released? 

Will we see another lifeline situation happen like when NH got released. LoN being able to use a large chuck of the NH range helped to keep the various legions current in the meta, and I honestly think that without those NH models in the LoN armies, LoN would have been left struggling a long time ago, with player numbers dropping off much sooner than they have. So will there be another similar lifeline to the current Death factions when Bonereapers drop or will they be excluded from LoN and NH armies, for fear of causing another 90 spam grim gravesite healing list situation? 

So in summary:

What do people think is going to happen to Death as an alliance in the game?

What do you think can be done to keep the older release factions relevant? (I know when I say older it's less than 2 years, but the power creep hath cometh to claim it's dues) 

What will happen to factions like Soulblight or Deadwalkers now, with stuff like Ayzr app removing them as keyword options, will they eventually get phased out or replaced with stuff that isn't in the traditional style of Death fantasy, but more in line with GW IP protected stuff the Bonereapers? 

[Dreadmund]

Weren't Death very well represented only a year or two ago? These sorts of swings in popularity happen pretty naturally, I don't think it's cause for alarm. Sooner of later there will be a new book or models usable by one or all of the death factions that will reinvigorate things. Death is too popular to get shafted for long, and as you say there is a brand new faction coming out for them very soon which I imagine will be able to be used in Legions or allied in to the other death factions. I bet that will shake things up quite a bit.

[Overread]

I think there's a few things to consider:

1) The competitive scene isn't the only metric by which to measure Death. Indeed the nature of the competitive end means it can attract more people of the "sell it and buy the best most OP" type of people, so sometimes armies that are good but not "broken" good can get left behind. 

2) As for the many subfaction groups we will lose some and other might get boosted up. What GW's plans are is impossible to divine these days. They could expand some out like taking the vampires, and make them into big armies; they could update existing lines with new models (FEC) do both or even release another wildcard like Bonereapers. 

3) Remember the whole "GW IP Protected" stuff is JUST NAMES. Nothing GW has produced in, say, the new bonereaper army is protected besides their names. You can right now go out and design your own undead bone construct walking corpse harvester with a gators bone head and a little set of arms at the groin and no one can stop you. Heck people already compare them to Skeletor and Skeleton warriors in design and concept. 

 

As an Alliance I expect it to grow by at least one or two more armies worth over the next 10 or more years. I'd expect to see Vampires fleshed out and perhaps Deathrattle (or a similar regular skeleton army) as well. That would give them a ghost army; a vampire army; a skeleton army and a construct skeleton army; not to mention Nagash's legion. 

[Panzer]

I honestly don't see any big shifts or whatever coming. Death is just like any other faction and so the future will be the same. They will become stronger and weaker almost randomly depending on how well GW writes their rules and adjust their points.

[EccentricCircle]

We have Ghoulies and Ghosties. It remains to be seen whether Bonereapers will be Long Leggity Beasties, or Things That Go Bump in the Night.

[SeanMaguire1991]

Vampires, an Army of Vampires and all their unholy glory.

Seriously though Vampire bloodlines could very well make a big come back. 

[dmorley21]

I feel like Legions of Nagash was a starting point for Death and eventually the grand alliance will become Legions of Nagash or Grand Host of Nagash. 

Since 2.0 dropped, they've released Nighthaunt, Flesh-Eater Courts, Legion of Grief and now have Bonereapers. 

Along with Gloomspite and Stormcast, NH and Bonereapers are the two biggest releases in that time in terms of models. 

As far as competitively, NH was a miss while FEC was a hit, though NH did make Legions better. You could easily argue that Grief has overperformed for being an expansion and not a fleshed out faction. 

I think Death will then get at least one more faction (vampire focused), but could also see a faction merging sacrament and deathwalkers as a necromancy focused faction. I could even see other factions allying with Nagash if he becomes a true power... especially factions that already worship death/murder but also hate chaos. So I think Death will become Legions of Nagash and by 3.0 will be a diverse grand alliance. 

I am curious about what happens to Nighthaunt in the future. Will their next book turn them into Legion of Grief with that playstyle? Will there be two distinct factions like there is now?

My pie in the sky would be separate books for Grief as a Legion of Nagash led by Olynder while some spirits slip away from Nagash and become a force of Destruction. 

[CDM]

Since 1.0 dropped and Death had a big nerf I feel they've done a great job with them! Legions of natasha was much needed but also showed away forward that we have seen in other factions too. 

Despite this though I think even with bonereapers there is still room to grow death (and destruction). Currently we have

-Legions of Nagash, originally I thought this was a placeholder, and it may still be, but I can see it sticking around now and I quite like how they added legion of grief and hopefully do the same with a legion of tithe?

-Ossiarch bonereapers , a new faction fully realised and likely the only bone faction (sorry deathrattle your covered in LoN)

-Nighthaunt, full faction of ghosts

-Fleash eater courts, ghoul, sort of mortal faction. I feel this needs an expansion much like genestealer cults did, a few mounted "knights" ( Ghouls on disgusting rotten corpses galloping along!) War machines! 

What does it need?

-soulblight, would need a lot of work but I could see it led by neferata and Manfred in different ways.  I think it could show all the different stages of vampire. Lords in their almost human looking form, vargheists the bestial aspect. It would need some mortal thrills in the livery of their masters and obviously new blood dragons!

- I think a rotten dead army would work. Could be the Necromancer army, raising the recently deceased and creating flesh monsters out of the bodies mid game , I.e if 20 man unit is wiped out summon 20 zombies or a zombie dragon/flesh golem in its place...could be fun!

-lastly a mortal followers of nagash force. Could have both the death keyword and order keyword for representing sigmar followers of shyish! Mortals fighting alongside their ancestors side by side is covered in the lore and is high on a number of wish lists.

That would give you seven ways to play death. I tho k that's a good number for death and destruction within the next 5 years.

 

[El Syf]

Nagash to finally sort out his rodent problem would be good. Every time he's been on the precipice of achieving something monumental, some bloody rats show up and spoil it!

On a more serious note I think Death will stay largely as it is; LoN is grand alliance death and some units from new battletomes will get thrown into it to keep it as the overall Grand Alliance army.

With warscrolls and points all being downloadable, this shouldn't be that much of a chore for players either (IE not spending £30 on a book when you only want to use 1-2 units from it). This would also help in keeping the army somewhat relevant, until a new LoN book is done should the old one get to that point.

Soulblight is an intriguing one as Bonereapers will arguably fill the elite army role for Death; so what would be the point in a full blown soulblight army?

You could also fiddle around with the hunger mechanic so that Necrachs heal when casting rather than killing stuff in combat. 

It's also funny to note last year(?) was the supposed year of death yet we've got the same amount of tomes this year.

 

[pseudonyme]

1 hour ago, El Syf said:

Nagash to finally sort out his rodent problem would be good. Every time he's been on the precipice of achieving something monumental, some bloody rats show up and spoil it!

 

A funny away to do that would be a big narrative arc around Skaven (synched with a big Skaven release) which ends with Nagash messing Skaven plans 👌

[Panzer]

30 minutes ago, pseudonyme said:

A funny away to do that would be a big narrative arc around Skaven (synched with a big Skaven release) which ends with Nagash messing Skaven plans 👌

I'd pay to see that.

[TheCovenLord]

I feel like death is going to keep expanding a bit after the bonereapers. A rogue faction has been mentioned as a likely and interesting way to shake the "eternal servitude" dynamic in a similar vein to FEC. 

 

I do however, believe that the classic vampire  aesthetic inspired by literature (the cavalry and the lord on foot/winged) as we know them are going to be phased out slowly for a newer GW equivalent a la sky/fire flavor dwarves. 

Edited October 3, 2019 by TheCovenLord

[pseudonyme]

For vampires, I would go either super classical with werewolves and the likes or 40k Genestealer Cult like with the possibility to use humans models with at least upgrade sprues.

In the first case it won't be "AoSed", but I trust GW to be able to put out gorgeous and highly dynamic classical monsters.In the second case, it would develop their scheming and infiltration nature in the human society. I guess it could only be done after/along a big humans release.

Don't really see another vampire trope they could expand on, or subvert (like they did the KO).

[IneptusAstartes]

3 hours ago, pseudonyme said:

A funny away to do that would be a big narrative arc around Skaven (synched with a big Skaven release) which ends with Nagash messing Skaven plans 👌

Nagash’s latest faction: the Nagashizzar Ratcatchers. Their goal: building a better mousetrap.

[pseudonyme]

A mousetrap warmachine or endless spell would be hilarious

[123lac]

Wasn't Nagash with necromancers and massive skeleton blocks the most OP thing in AoS 2.0 for like a whole year straight? 

Now we're complaining because suddenly armies that used to be bottom of the barrel are now better in tournament play?

LoL.

[Saxon]

3 hours ago, 123lac said:

Wasn't Nagash with necromancers and massive skeleton blocks the most OP thing in AoS 2.0 for like a whole year straight? 

Now we're complaining because suddenly armies that used to be bottom of the barrel are now better in tournament play?

LoL.

The newer releases have killed the Nagash release. Look at Fyreslayers, GLoomspite, FEC..... they're all way more powerful than  a horde of bones. 

[Panzer]

4 hours ago, Saxon said:

The newer releases have killed the Nagash release. Look at Fyreslayers, GLoomspite, FEC..... they're all way more powerful than  a horde of bones. 

That's what he said.

[RuneBrush]

I'd not look at the GT final as representative of anything if I'm honest.  It was a collection of some of the best AoS players (at least ones who can get to WHW) to bring their "A Game" to a competitive event.  Looking round at other competitive events, there is still a fairly decent dose of Death armies going round.  Death is still also pretty popular outside the competitive event scene too.

I've a few thoughts on why there has been a bit of a dip in Death armies being played though.  One thing that we suffer with is that a significant number of our allegiances utilise the same handful of warscrolls, so from a collectors point of view there isn't a massive amount of diversity.  With the collection of just over 4000 points of models I have, I think I could comfortably run six different allegiances (that would fundamentally look the same or similar).  This also doesn't particularly make an exciting project if I were to want to create a new death army.  Our battalion choices are also pretty poor, which from a competitive scene means we are going to struggle to get that all important first turn priority (something that is becoming more and more key to winning games now).

Going forward I think the new Bonereapers could be good if the battletome has some counters to other armies out there - initial impressions are they're going to be fairly tanky.  I could see specific Legion of X battletomes being created that tweak the units available and provide a better selection of spell lores and battalions.  Soulblight needs quite a lot of work - the only plastic Vampire we have is the one on a Zombie Dragon.  Oddly I could see them being combined with Deadwalkers, so you could have an army led by a powerful vampire with hundreds of zombies, or being run as a more elite force full of Vampire Knights.  However, realistically people are just going to use them as mercenaries or part of their existing army.  Finally I could see Nighthaunt being replaced by a Legion of Grief battletome with a few different allegiance options (one of which is Nighthaunt the other the current Legion of Grief).

[Charlo]

Legions of Nagash is an incredible book still, a little dated now but really cool in it's concept and execution. It perfectly sorted out the undead models in a coherent way!

I think we may see a redo of this book in time, probably to clean up stuff, change Nagash and Arkhan go match their (presumably) coming changes in Bonereapers and also pop the NH units they can use in the book etc. At the same time we'll probably see things like Batswarms, Fellbats and other resin minis either get squatted or a new kit. The plastic bats in FEC Beastgrave give me hope! 

My dream would be a Soulblight book, with an AoS twist. "Fire" Slayers, "Undersea" Elves are the examples of this. Zombies are a very dated kit so honestly I don't see them sticking around and also fall into that "generic" trope that GW seemingly wants to avoid (see: squatted Dwarf Warriors/ Missile units) to keep them unique.

I actually wonder if Dragons might be the theme with the Vampires. It's a natural progression of the Blood Dragons fluff, and links in with the plastic kit. Plus they recently squatted the Order dragon faction...!

[Sception]

I wouldn't say Legions of Nagash perfectly sorted out undead models.  It has a number of problems, including too much redundancy (zombies, skeletons, & grave guard are all too similar in their abilities and battlefield role for all three to be viable simultaneously), a number of units that are just kind of bad, etc.  A better & more fleshed out set of battalions could have helped there, but we got what we got.  It was and is a very cool book, but it already feels very out of date.

I for one do not expect bonereapers to be added to existing legions except as an allies.  I think the devs are gunshy about that after what happened with Grimghasts, which honestly they maybe should be.  Personally, I would have much rather seen grimchasts removed from the legions rather than the wave of points hikes for every unit ever fielded next to Nagash, but it is what it is.  We might see a 'legion of the necropolis' with bonereapers and *some* legion stuff in it, similar to the legion of grief, but I'm not holding my breath.

Guessing at future releases?  Soulblight will likely see a separate release.  If bonereapers go over well we might see a future expansion to them.  Beyond that, though?   They could still release a separate deathrattle book, but at this point I doubt it.  Between old skeleton stuff being covered in the Legions book and any new skeleton stuff potentially competing with bonereapers it just doesn't seem likely.  There are still some general undead concepts that could make for interesting factions - mortal worshippers of Nagash, non-human undead - maybe an undead elf faction if Nagash manages to sneak into the Slaanesh piñata party, a frankenstein style fleshy necromantic horror faction maybe - but hard to say if any particular idea is likely to be realized.  It would be nice to see an actual expansion to FEC with some actual new units and models, but with the 2e non-expansion still quite recent it seems pretty clear we won't be getting that any time soon.

In terms of wishlisting, what I'd *like* to see remains largely unchanged.  I'd *like* to see the Legions broken up into smaller factions, then those smaller factions expanded, with a separate Deathlords book including Nagash, the Mortarchs, Morghasts, general Death alliance rules, and legion rules combining particular subfactions from other books.  In my wishlist version of this the Morghasts themselves would be expanded into a faction of their own with smaller, flightless troop versions and other dread-abyssal style bone constructs, so that's basically just the Ossiarchs.  So if I had my way we'd get:

Spoiler

 

"Legions of Nagash" - Nagash, Mortarchs (including reprints of mortarchs that are part of other factions), Ossiarchs, rules for generic Death faction (replaces 'Grand Host of Nagash'), Rules for "Legion of" factions combining Ossiarchs, one Mortarch, and one or two other death factions (replaces 'Legion of X').  All Legions gain access to the Ossiarchs, making them basically the cornerstone of AoS death alliance in the lore.  Pure Ossiarchs gain unique battle line, battalion, & allegiance rules to make them worth running over more diverse legion lists.

Nighthaunt Processions- pretty similar to now

Flesh Eater Courts - expanded with, at minimum, two new units, plus actual models for the courtiers.

Deathrattle Levies - expanded with archers, skeletal mage, bone giant, maybe chariots

Fleshcraft Academies - Deathmages & Deadwalkers, with new zombie models, flesh golems, zombie monsters, necromantic arcane engines, etc

Soulblight Aristocracy - Vampires plus mortal cultists.

 

In terms of what legion gets what, I'd have:

Grand Host of Nagash: Everything, led by Nagash, replaces grand alliance death

Legion of Grief: Ossiarchs + Nighthaunt led by Olynder

Legion of Necropolis: Ossiarchs + Deathrattle led by Katakros

Legion of Sacrament: Ossiarch + Fleshcraft led by Arkhan

Legion of Blood: Ossiarchs + Soulblight led by Neferata

Legion of Night: Ossiarchs + FEC led by Manfred, who I'd have have take over the FEC after capturing and/or killing & consuming Ushoran, maybe resulting in a split mind situation with Ushoran's personality & madness sometimes overtaking Mannfred's consciousness, possibly without him knowing.  Maybe play the whole think as a plot/punishment from Nagash seeking to gain more control over the FEC while simultaneously reigning in Mannfred's scheming.

 

Admittedly that last one would be pretty contentious.  Existing Mannfred theme armies would lose access to both skeletons and vargheists, the units their current rules & lore specifically encourage them to use.  The style would still be there - Ossiarch infantry would replace deathrattle's role in the current Legion of Night, while Crypt Flayers would replace the Vargheists - but I'd basically be killing the existing LoN faction in terms of the actual units used, invalidating a lot of existing armies, which admittedly would tick off a lot of current players even if those units would still be usable via Grand Host.  Further, existing FEC players waiting for a Mortarch of their own might be disappointed getting one second hand instead of a fancy new Ushoran model.  IMO it would be worth it though, as I think Manny fits in FEC better than he does in Soulblight, and he's worked with ghouls a fair bit in the past, and it solves the multiple redundant soulblight mortarch issue between Manny & Neferata, and the general character of the FEC faction is imo an extremely good fit for the skirmishy, out-flanky faction that Legion of Night wants to be.

 

 

And as long as we're talking pie in the sky, not gonna happen pipe dreams, my dearest wish:  Death Elves.

Spoiler

 

The forces of Slaanesh discover their god's hiding spot and converge to free him.  In response, the Elven gods gather to finally remove all the remaining elf souls from Slaanesh at once in a desperate piñata beat down.  But during the ritual Malerion, spurred on by Morathi, attempts to take control and steal all the elven souls for himself.  Morathi in turn betrays him, siding with Tyrion, Teclis (& maybe Alarielle & Kurnous if they're invited to the party).  The other gods gang up on & kill Malerion.  As a result Morathi steals  dominion over Ulgu and many of the darker elven souls that would have gone to Malerion.

Many, but not all, though, as Malerion 'dies', but doesn't cease to exist.  Instead his weakened spirit, along with the elven souls he was able to claim before the other elven gods stop him, gets caught up in the gravity of Shyish and fall screaming to Nagash's clutches.  There Malerion and Nagash enter into an uneasy alliance, with Malerion becoming something more than a Mortarch but less than a full partner to Nagash, and master of his own legion of necromonger-inspired death-alliance shadow elves - half living and half undead, flickering between physical and ghostly forms, with arcane power over necromantically animated shadows.  He then launches a war of revenge on Morathi, bringing the better part of Ulgu under Alliance of Death control.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by Sception

[Scurvydog]

I think a Vampire Coast army like the one from the Total War 2 expansion would sell like hotcakes. However it seems GW wants to do their own thing and not just put a specific existing culture "hat" on models, so an army of pirate undeads would probably be too on the nose these days. 

I thought for a long time now it would make sense for Death to have an elite army in the image of Nagash, as nothing really seemed to match him, the way stormcast matches Sigmar, Sylvaneth to Allarielle etc. So here we are with the Bonereapers and it makes all kinds of sense.

AoS is in an odd place with all these remnants from the old world, which are taking root the longer they are present, but mostly seems like they are, because GW has no good answer to just get rid of them. I don't doubt GW will still just slowly phase out old world stuff, like the big list of models moving to legends recently before the release of Cities of Sigmar. 

I would not be surprised if the next Death soup book got rid of a bunch of older models once again, until finally disappearing completely. I strongly believe the skeleton and zombie hordes of old will at some point disappear completely, so the endgame goal would look something like this:

Bonereapers

Flesh Eaters

Nighthaunt

Zombie Abominations

Soulblight

It seems GW prefers their books in neat packages these days, so I could see them get rid of nearly all the older stuff and making new neat books. The Zombie book could be with Crelis Arul the lady of all flesh becoming mortarch of the Deadwalkers, bringing in all kinds of new abominations like a death clan moulder of frankenstein horrors. GW do love to make their own spin on the classic tropes.

Same for soulblight, although with the way the stories have been going, it could be interesting to see them betray/break away from Nagash, with Manfred and Neferata starting their own faction (Nagash is getting a few too many mortarchs anyway). Some new soulblight knights and thralls, this could also work as the semi mortal army from Shyish, with living Thralls as the cheap battleline fodder and soulblight vampires as the elite options. The Zombie dragon kit and Vargheists sticking around but most of the rest being new.

Guess the years will tell if I am right in this.

[pseudonyme]

1 hour ago, Sception said:

And as long as we're talking pie in the sky, not gonna happen pipe dreams, my dearest wish:  Death Elves.

  Hide contents

 

The forces of Slaanesh discover their god's hiding spot and converge to free him.  In response, the Elven gods gather to finally remove all the remaining elf souls from Slaanesh at once in a desperate piñata beat down.  But during the ritual Malerion, spurred on by Morathi, attempts to take control and steal all the elven souls for himself.  Morathi in turn betrays him, siding with Tyrion, Teclis (& maybe Alarielle & Kurnous if they're invited to the party).  The other gods gang up on & kill Malerion.  As a result Morathi steals  dominion over Ulgu and many of the darker elven souls that would have gone to Malerion.

Many, but not all, though, as Malerion 'dies', but doesn't cease to exist.  Instead his weakened spirit, along with the elven souls he was able to claim before the other elven gods stop him, gets caught up in the gravity of Shyish and fall screaming to Nagash's clutches.  There Malerion and Nagash enter into an uneasy alliance, with Malerion becoming something more than a Mortarch but less than a full partner to Nagash, and master of his own legion of necromonger-inspired death-alliance shadow elves - half living and half undead, flickering between physical and ghostly forms, with arcane power over necromantically animated shadows.  He then launches a war of revenge on Morathi, bringing the better part of Ulgu under Alliance of Death control.

 

 

So more or less @Thomas Lyons WIP Nighthanut/Cities of Sigmar army project

[JackStreicher]

I think the future of this Faction is pretty much dead.

 

*baduum tzzzz* 

🤣😅

Edited October 4, 2019 by JackStreicher

[Evil Bob]

On 10/3/2019 at 7:27 PM, 123lac said:

Wasn't Nagash with necromancers and massive skeleton blocks the most OP thing in AoS 2.0 for like a whole year straight? 

Now we're complaining because suddenly armies that used to be bottom of the barrel are now better in tournament play?

LoL.

This trolling is in very poor taste.

Every army has it gimmicks and the above wasn’t winning everything like the claim.  Please could we have less hyperbole and more rational discussion.

It should also be noted Tropical Ghost Genera wasn’t complaining that other books were doing good.  Just that GW seems apathetic towards Death armies in general.  The FAQs  and Generals Handbook 2019 are proof of that.

Edited October 5, 2019 by Evil Bob