Does CoS need new models?

[RuneBrush]

I'm finding the reaction to there not being any new miniatures with the Cities of Sigmar really surprising.  Not all battletomes are going to have miniatures.  We had exactly the same with Legions of Nagash too - a version 2 Battletome that basically brings an army up to a level where people can use them in a game without being at a disadvantage over newer armies.

I think aesthetic wise you could argue it any way you want.  The realms were deliberately created large enough that somewhere there will be towns full of downtrodden peasants, cities with a militia dressed in finery and caves full of noble men at arms 😉  We're all likely to differ on our opinion of this too - which is actually what makes AoS such a rich environment!

I'll also say that what we get in the future will heavily depend upon what people actually field at events and WHW.  If a couple of cities are being played a lot then those are the ones that are more likely to receive new miniatures in the future.  Please don't leave models on a shelf or not pick up that army you've always fancied doing because long term that isn't going to help that army.  Things like social media really help this too - the more visibility you can give an army the better!

[zilberfrid]

39 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

I'm finding the reaction to there not being any new miniatures with the Cities of Sigmar really surprising.  Not all battletomes are going to have miniatures.  We had exactly the same with Legions of Nagash too - a version 2 Battletome that basically brings an army up to a level where people can use them in a game without being at a disadvantage over newer armies.

I think aesthetic wise you could argue it any way you want.  The realms were deliberately created large enough that somewhere there will be towns full of downtrodden peasants, cities with a militia dressed in finery and caves full of noble men at arms 😉  We're all likely to differ on our opinion of this too - which is actually what makes AoS such a rich environment!

I'll also say that what we get in the future will heavily depend upon what people actually field at events and WHW.  If a couple of cities are being played a lot then those are the ones that are more likely to receive new miniatures in the future.  Please don't leave models on a shelf or not pick up that army you've always fancied doing because long term that isn't going to help that army.  Things like social media really help this too - the more visibility you can give an army the better!

For me, it's about lacking confidence that my models will be legal in a few years. I move at a rather inconsistent speed, and it could take a few months until I have something ready. GW models are also not the cheapest, and I don't want to spend too much money on fleeting things.

[123lac]

12 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

For me, it's about lacking confidence that my models will be legal in a few years. I move at a rather inconsistent speed, and it could take a few months until I have something ready. GW models are also not the cheapest, and I don't want to spend too much money on fleeting things.

I think this is a valid concern.

Why would any new hobbyist pick up Cities of Sigmar? Not a single new model. This book could very well be just a temporary provision of rules for the grogs until their model lines go the way of the greenskins.

[Clan's Cynic]

1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

For me, it's about lacking confidence that my models will be legal in a few years. I move at a rather inconsistent speed, and it could take a few months until I have something ready. GW models are also not the cheapest, and I don't want to spend too much money on fleeting things.

This is pretty much my take. I have enough WHFB models from pretty much every single CoS race to make an army somewhere in the range of 3000pts. The problem I'm having is justifying adding anymore to that - barring the Battletome obviously - or more specifically, rounding everything but my Dwarfs off into a consistent theme, just on the chance that it all ends up squat'ed in a year or two anyway.

To be honest though, my gut tells me that GW probably underestimated the hype surrounding CoS, particularly at it's announcement. It's arguably the most talked about Battletome since AoS2 was announced. The poor Orruks and Bonereapers have barely had a word in by comparison. I can't help but wonder if that might spur GW, naturally ever seeking more pennies, to sit up and realise there's definitely an audience for the Old World armies and potentially a continuation of that theme.

Something tells me the "stinky WHFB models don't fit into AoS!" camp would have nothing but praise if GW rolled out new Not!Empire models tomorrow.

Edited October 1, 2019 by Clan's Cynic

[zilberfrid]

2 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

This is pretty much my take. I have enough WHFB models from pretty much every single CoS race to make an army somewhere in the range of 3000pts. The problem I'm having is justifying adding anymore to that - barring the Battletome obviously - on the chance that it all ends up squat'ed in a few years anyway.

I think my idea might also benefit you: Make a core army for every city (the batallion comes to mind), and a lot of generic troops. Then, invite people for a game, and both players choose from the generic troops. Then play. Even if the armies get squatted, with the core rules of this moment, Malign Sorcery and CoS, you'll have a lot of different ways to play.

For myself, as long as there's a human faction, I'll proxy to my heart's content, even if not, I can make do.

Who cares that there's a real Knight Azyros, my warpriest with the wings of the old banner and a torch guides the way just as well. There may be Gryph Chargers, but these demis can stand in perfectly. In the shop where I play, they want you to play GW models, but conversions are power to you as long as there won't be confusion.

[Storm]

2 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

I'm finding the reaction to there not being any new miniatures with the Cities of Sigmar really surprising.  Not all battletomes are going to have miniatures.  We had exactly the same with Legions of Nagash too - a version 2 Battletome that basically brings an army up to a level where people can use them in a game without being at a disadvantage over newer armies.

And yet all of the battletome releases since 2.0 came out have at least included endless spells and a terrain piece, so I think it's a fair point of contention, the lack of support for this week's release, is frankly, rather baffling to me.

[Myrdin]

As far as I have read this discussion, the argument presented on the first page boils down to "I dont like it, therefore it must go".

Luckily the answer is simple in that case: If you absolutely cannot stand the old Empire looks of the miniatures and the general theme of the Mortals of the Realms, please feel free to choose another of many different lines of miniatures and armies on the shelves. But just because you dont like them, gives you no  right to decide for others in wanting them gone. There are many loyal fans who have been waiting for CoS, mostly because they love their old armies. 

I for one like the new sculpts, kits and miniatures AoS has going for. You can see the improvement that was done through out the years. But at the same time I do love me some old fashioned Empire/Wanderers/Dwarf armies as well. This by itself contradicts the argument of people who like the old stuff hating AoS, and vice versa. And I am surely not the only one like this.

I do agree  it would be absolutely baler to get new sculpts for CoS sub factions, and slowly phasing out the oldest miniatures with new better, more detailed,more dynamic looking ones. We have seen how nice the new kits are, so getting even more puffy trousers and even wider hats and longer mustaches is something I wouldn't mind to see. But I wish to keep the general theme of the army as is. The reason there is such a huge diversity between the factions is that each of them has a strict character and theme, and they follow this theme. If all of them suddenly lost their core identity we would end up with "generic army 1, generic army 2, generic army 3, etc". At which points there is no more selection possible as it all is the same. The different looks, visual and mechanical (as in army mechanics) is what makes choosing your own army that much more important to you and every other player. Stripping these things off, is akin to killing the game in its core

On the note of new models: I am still kinda bummed that CoS have no human knights, neither Empire or Bretonian. The only horse riding humans are the shooty light cav option. I assume breeding, raising and training a warhorse to be much easier then a Demigryph chocobo monstrer or some other new obscure monster type mount the SCE are riding on. As such it make little sense for them to remove those, but ah well.

The book is officially out on the shelves for what... 2 days ? I picked up mine just yesterday, and that was the earliest date I could get it from our local store. Its really a poor judgment to pull rainclouds over the parade immediately after the launch especially since a wast part of the player-base has been clamoring for this for a long time now.  (And lets be honest here, I very much doubt we will see a CoS 2.0  release in the future ever again. This is like the last huraaa for these people and their legacy armies, before the old stuff gets completely squatted sometimes in the lifespan of AoS 3.0. So doing this is kinda tactless.)

Edited October 1, 2019 by Myrdin

[Kyriakin]

30 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

(And lets be honest here, I very much doubt we will see a CoS 2.0  release in the future ever again. This is like the last huraaa for these people and their legacy armies, before the old stuff gets completely squatted sometimes in the lifespan of AoS 3.0. So doing this is kinda tactless.)

I disagree, I think we will see a "blank canvas" book for future editions - even if some of the current models are indeed removed. This book has created a stir in pretty much every forum, Youtube channel and online FLGS group I frequent. I'm sure GW has noticed this too.

In fact, this book has redefined what it means to be "squatted".

For example, I am planning to make my CoS from Kislev, who were functionally squatted way back in WHFB (7th Edition?), and yet - with some counts-as shenanigans and converting - are, Bear aside, suddenly mostly usable now with this new book.

The blank canvas approach allows GW to clear its lines without actually truly "squatting" anything for anyone - provided those players already have the models, of course (or are willing to get reamed on eBay).

Edited October 1, 2019 by Kyriakin

[RuneBrush]

22 minutes ago, Storm said:

And yet all of the battletome releases since 2.0 came out have at least included endless spells and a terrain piece, so I think it's a fair point of contention, the lack of support for this week's release, is frankly, rather baffling to me.

Legions of Nagash didn't and I'd suggest that book to be closer in concept to Cities of Sigmar and Orruk Warclans than the more faction focused battletomes.  Appreciate that was technically released before 2.0 however I think judging current and future releases based on what's happened in the past is a surefire way to become really disillusioned with what's coming out.  Don't get me wrong, I love new models, but I do think it unfair to say that GW haven't supported the release - a new battletome and warscroll cards will allow people to get models onto the table.

26 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

(And lets be honest here, I very much doubt we will see a CoS 2.0  release in the future ever again. This is like the last huraaa for these people and their legacy armies, before the old stuff gets completely squatted sometimes in the lifespan of AoS 3.0. So doing this is kinda tactless.)

I'd not put my money on anything currently.  We're seeing stuff coming out that none of us have ever even considered.  As I said earlier, the more we support and are vocal in our want of certain factions, the more we're going to see those factions be kept alive.  It's also worth bearing in mind that Sam Pearson and Chris Peach's Freeguild armies have been given a massive amount of coverage on WarCom and other social media platforms.  I genuinely cannot imagine GW simply going "nope, don't want these anymore" without considering the knock on effect.

[Overread]

Far as I see it if GW have any marketing sense then 2.0 is the cut-off point for removing whole armies for AoS for the near and middle future periods. There's just no sense in them releasing a patchwork battletome now and then removing armies later. Plus Dwarves, Aelves and Humans feature heavily in the lore. The only reason those 3 forces have been less on the tabletop is the same reason slaves to darkness ahve been less - because they don't have 2.0 edition rules and the 1.0 rules some of them have are rubbish, missing or rely on only a handful of models that many don't feel like spamming (Everchosen). 

It's the same issues Skaven had prior to their Tome, everyone would use Pestilens but the other Clans were very underrepresented compared to what they are now. Same for Slaanesh and many many others. It's simply the fact that AoS prior to 2.0 was a mess of jumbled rules in different places and quickpatch rules and such. 2.0 is the 1.0 release, if GW wanted Cities factions gone they'd just remove them.

 

Now Cities might change in the future, GW might split armies out of the united force and into their own books given time, with updated sculpts and the like, butI can't see them destroying them down further. It would be a foolish marketing move

[Myrdin]

@Kyriakin and @RuneBrush

I hope you prove me wrong. By Sigmar I hope you do.

I would love to see CoS get more fleshed out as a "create your own theme" army with generic human/elf/dwarf residents being made customizable into the most non generic settings and themes one can thing off.

Eexample: as I mentioned before in the CoS thread and posted some picutres, my CoS is all Nippon-Cathay oriented. The Asian aesthetics and mythology is strong with it, and this is something I imagine would be  amazing for all the other CoS players to have the opportunity to do, their own thematic Cities  in whichever setting they wish for it to be.... after all the realms are massive and Infinite so who is to say, there is no City like this or that in some remote corner of the world ?

... now granted that might not be the case as pretty much all of the models used for that thematic army I mentioned are non GW (bar the Pheonix which is perfect fit.), which would make people shop elsewhere, but still. It would be nice.

But giving the book a quick glance before bed yesterday, I am more or less happy. Bunch of interesting stuff, thematic armies potential for those who like me enjoy that sort of thing, cheese potential for those who want to dominate tournaments.  And a huge clear open area of un-written lore for your city/army ready for you to breath life into it either with a pen, keyboard or a brush  

Edited October 1, 2019 by Myrdin

[Cèsar de Quart]

I find it laughable that some people say GW is "pandering" to us "grogs". Before I know it GW will be offering us free money, and it will still feel like a bad monday. And, mind you, I'm taking the viewpoint of the "not grogs", apparently, where the old Empire minis will be discontinued in favour of new sculpts with a different aesthetic, or rather they'll be just squatted like the High Elves. 

Like Myrdin was saying, I hope the optimists here are right. 

The breeches-and-feathers aesthetics for the old Empire was iconic. So iconic that nowadays many miniature companies produce at least one line of Empire-like miniatures. As central to the setting as the green orcs or the over-armoured vikings as Chaos Warriors.

Why wouldn't it fit AoS?

[stratigo]

On 9/30/2019 at 8:19 AM, zilberfrid said:

I don't expect new kits for the cities, but if it runs well, a White Dwarf for Lethis or Excelsior? Maybe.

EDIT: If there are no kits now with the big release, I don't expect them in a smaller one.

 

Characters are so easy and profitable that tossing out character kits is trivial for GW. I would not be shocked to see CoS get characters over campaigns like a lot of armies do.

[Thiagoma]

I think GW is gona be surprised by the sales of CoS.

The BT itself will sell. A LOT. 

And for instance, i had been keeping track of the Whats app groups and communities and people are gathering considerable shopping lists to their armies. 

Sure, a lot of people already have the bulk os the army and others will proxy the wazoo out of it, but i dont belive most people got 40 spare Phoenix Guard, or Darkshards lying around.

Another bunch of people reluctant with support for their armies are finally decide to step in. Endless spells are a must, so that will increase in sales too, not to mention that the player base is huge considering the amount of armies covered by the book.

[Forrix]

I'll agree that I don't think GW anticipated the popularity of Cities but I also don't see them putting out a 2.0 battletome and then squatting everything inside it within a year or two. Lorewise, the cities provide key centers for focus in a world that otherwise become blurry due to its immense size. Nobody cares if peninsula #230981 gets taken over by Chaos in Aqshy but if Hammerhal comes under siege suddenly the stakes are high.

I don't have any models from the order factions from WHFB (I was all chaos) but I've been wanting to get some of the newer dwarf and elf sculpts since they came out. This provides a great opportunity for me to do so since they now have coherent rules. I have a feeling some of the thought behind Cities were to get old players to come out and play with their armies then move on to Stormcast, Slyvaneth, or KO (lol given their current rules). I'm thinking this will boost sales of the old armies more than GW expects though.

[Not-not-kenny]

I for one am relieved CoS didn't get faction specific scenery or endless spells, none of the faction scenery kits released so far have made any sense to me (these dwarves brought a what to the battlefield?!) and none of the spells have been necessary in the least after the initial ones released. They've just felt like GW were releasing models for the new books solely to have something to release.

5 hours ago, 123lac said:

I think this is a valid concern.

Why would any new hobbyist pick up Cities of Sigmar? Not a single new model. This book could very well be just a temporary provision of rules for the grogs until their model lines go the way of the greenskins.

And to this I would like to answer that maybe new hobbyists like that the models that aready existed now actually have a book connected to them and maybe some new uses for old models they might not have considered before. It's borderline insulting to imply that a new hobbyist can only pick up a new army if it comes with new models. 

I don't see this book as "pandering to the grogs", more of a bridging the gap between the old and new. Do I wish they could have done it better? Of course! Would I have liked some new models to replace the ones we lost? Sure, but on the other hand I can now play humans with magical and artillery support without being restricted by how many allies I can take.

[smartazjb0y]

Gonna avoid the whole "does the aesthetic fit AoS" argument because I'm not really even sure what's being argued, it seems folks on both sides seem to argue both points? 

In terms of future support though, the idea of this being a farewell seems unlikely to me. Like I mentioned, I do agree that people can raise an eyebrow at the lack of new endless spells and terrain, I think that's legitimate...but a battletome is a battletome. Rules and background take work. The jump from 1e AoS to 2e AoS was huge, because 1e AoS wasn't in a great state at all and 2e now is, and it really does seem like 2e is the proper base from which they want to build from now on. From all the previews, the rules and background lore seem very solid: that takes work. I don't think that work would've been put in just for a final farewell: if they wanted to remove them in the near future, 2e would've been the perfect time. 

I also don't even think my take is really an "optimistic" one, it just makes sense IMO. If they truly wanted to remove the old units and make a clean break, it doesn't make sense to put in the legwork to make a good battletome when you're getting into the good phase of your game. 

And, it really does seem like the release is getting good buzz: people are liking the rules, people have been excited for it. If it performs well (and by all accounts it does seem like it'll do well) then that's another point in its favor. 

[Forrix]

All models are new models to the new hobbyist....Some just look better than others and most of the plastic CoS sculpts are pretty nice even when viewed next to the newer models.

[Myrdin]

18 minutes ago, Forrix said:

All models are new models to the new hobbyist....Some just look better than others and most of the plastic CoS sculpts are pretty nice even when viewed next to the newer models.

Exactly.

I mean, I am in a FB buy/sell/trade group for all that is Warhammer. I can not tell you how many times there were people shopping for the old, sometimes even ancient metallic miniatures. Every time I saw some of these super old miniatures and thought to myself "darn, these are some really old sculpts, I wonder if this person is gonna find somebody who wants to buy them" there were always several different buyers fishing for that one ancient piece of Warhammer history  

I to have been ogling the old Khornegors for my BoC (while also hoping BoC garnered enough popularity for us to get actual new Khorne/Slan/Pestigors to go in line with the new amazing Tzaangors.... alas it seems the hype for BoC wasnt as great since the Slanesh and Khorne updates have been done and no new "Gors" have been announced ..... *sniff*) despite the sculpts being rather old even when compared to my regular BoC miniatures. So there certainly is appeal to some of the older sculpts and there most assuredly are people who find them attractive enough to add to their collections. 

 

Edited October 1, 2019 by Myrdin

[XReN]

I really hope that sales will make GW to keep supporting CoS, especially with models, even I, a guy who wasn't interested at all in any of those armies back in FB days now ordered Battletome, Warscroll Cards, Greywater SC and Steam Tank! (And I already have Hurricanum and 2 imperial artillery boxes as allies for my SCE)

[overtninja]

GW made a battletome out of the very best legacy sculpts from elves, dwarves, and humans. What was preventing those quality model ranges from seeing the table were their rules. There will be a lot more people rolling out their old armies, and people starting the hobby now have the option of playing the 'normal people' faction with rules that stack up against all the horrible gribblies that fill AoS's setting. There really aren't things that stand out as being necessary to add to the faction at the moment, with so many good models and varied units available in the same force.

With that said, if GW wants to expand on these factions in the future, that design space is now open, where it wasn't before. I'd expect some character models at some point, to be honest.

[Red_Shift]

If they do psychic awakening style books for AoS there could be a unit or character released here or there. I would have thought that the best hope would be a looncurse style box. Given that they seem to have gone down the faun style for future wood elf type releases a potential character seems more likely for the human faction.

I am very tempted by the duardin box although I'm not a massive fan of the copter. I think I held off getting at the time due to large unit sizes. I've got two units of 40 halberdiers and one of 40 greatswords and painting fatigue was a thing. 

[123lac]

9 hours ago, Forrix said:

All models are new models to the new hobbyist....Some just look better than others and most of the plastic CoS sculpts are pretty nice even when viewed next to the newer models.

Cringe.

Models are as old as their sculpts. 

No need to be dishonest.

[RatOfGod]

13 minutes ago, 123lac said:

Cringe.

Models are as old as their sculpts. 

No need to be dishonest.

But why does the age of the sculpt matter in itself? Are you honestly just rejecting the kits based on when they were modelled? It's hardly 'dishonest' to suggest that someone can make an independent aesthetic judgement on the quality of the minis...

[FPC]

27 minutes ago, RatOfGod said:

But why does the age of the sculpt matter in itself? Are you honestly just rejecting the kits based on when they were modelled? It's hardly 'dishonest' to suggest that someone can make an independent aesthetic judgement on the quality of the minis...

Yea really. Look at how in demand some oop models are. Take the “Juan Diaz” demonettes. People love those models and they’re old as heck.